SCOTUS Chicago Case Could Have Wide Implications

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Dox47
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06 Mar 2010, 12:17 am

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... al-causes/

I'd really suggest reading the above article, it's 4 pages but they're well worth it and very informative.

The brief version is that the SCOTUS is evaluating the Constitutionality of Chicago's ban on handguns in light of the recent Heller decision that established the 2nd Amendment as an individual right. This might seem pretty straightforward and partisan, but the lead counsel against the city is arguing using a clause of the 14th Amendment known as "privileges and immunities" that if legally recognized, could clear the way for greatly enhanced civil rights protections, possibly even Constitutional protections for access to abortions and gay marriage. He seems completely aware of this, and is in fact in conflict with some of the more conservative groups who are otherwise behind supporting the case, who'd prefer to use the more limited "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment to still force the states to respect the 2nd Amendment, but with less impact on other issues.

I for one am thrilled by this development, one of the harder parts about being a libertarian leaning independent is often having to choose between causes such as gay rights and gun rights, very rarely can I be satisfied on all fronts, but this is looking to be one of those times. The Court has given every indication that they are going to overturn Chicago's ban no matter what, all that remains to be seen is how they go about doing so and what the implications of their method will be. I'm doubtful that they'll go all the way and overturn the 1873 Slaughterhouse decision, but I hope they do, the court got it wrong all those years ago, and here's the perfect opportunity to set that right.


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Sand
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06 Mar 2010, 1:15 am

Dox47 wrote:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/02/gun-rights-lawyer-gives-hope-to-liberal-causes/

I'd really suggest reading the above article, it's 4 pages but they're well worth it and very informative.

The brief version is that the SCOTUS is evaluating the Constitutionality of Chicago's ban on handguns in light of the recent Heller decision that established the 2nd Amendment as an individual right. This might seem pretty straightforward and partisan, but the lead counsel against the city is arguing using a clause of the 14th Amendment known as "privileges and immunities" that if legally recognized, could clear the way for greatly enhanced civil rights protections, possibly even Constitutional protections for access to abortions and gay marriage. He seems completely aware of this, and is in fact in conflict with some of the more conservative groups who are otherwise behind supporting the case, who'd prefer to use the more limited "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment to still force the states to respect the 2nd Amendment, but with less impact on other issues.

I for one am thrilled by this development, one of the harder parts about being a libertarian leaning independent is often having to choose between causes such as gay rights and gun rights, very rarely can I be satisfied on all fronts, but this is looking to be one of those times. The Court has given every indication that they are going to overturn Chicago's ban no matter what, all that remains to be seen is how they go about doing so and what the implications of their method will be. I'm doubtful that they'll go all the way and overturn the 1873 Slaughterhouse decision, but I hope they do, the court got it wrong all those years ago, and here's the perfect opportunity to set that right.


The proof of this pudding will be in the eating. If the proliferation of guns is competent in defending innocents and lowering crime I will be all for every child carrying a fully loaded automatic pistol. Permit me my doubts.



Dox47
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06 Mar 2010, 1:47 am

Sand wrote:
The proof of this pudding will be in the eating. If the proliferation of guns is competent in defending innocents and lowering crime I will be all for every child carrying a fully loaded automatic pistol. Permit me my doubts.


I wasn't even talking about the efficacy of gun control, but here you go:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... ndgun-ban/

The Washington Times wrote:
The year after the Supreme Court struck down the District of Columbia's handgun ban and gun-lock requirements, the capital city's murder rate plummeted 25 percent. The high court should keep that in mind today as it hears oral arguments about a Chicago handgun ban.

Gun controllers screamed to high heaven that impending disaster would follow the court's decision to junk some of the district's gun controls. One of those screaming the loudest was Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley, who incorrectly predicted more gun freedom would lead to more death and Wild West shootouts. Instead, in Washington, murder rates rose when the handgun ban was in effect and fell once the regulations were removed.

Chicago's 1982 ban faired no better. The forthcoming third edition of "More Guns, Less Crime" shows that in the 17 years after a ban on new handguns went into effect, there were only two years when Chicago's murder rate was as low as it was in 1982. The Windy City's murder rate fell relative to America's other 50 largest cities before the ban and rose relative to them afterward. For example, Chicago's murder rate went from equaling the average for those other U.S. cities in 1982 to exceeding their average murder rate by 32 percent in 1992. There is no year after the ban that Chicago's murder rate fared as well relative to other cities as it did in 1982.

That increase in murder rates isn't surprising. Every time gun bans have been tried anywhere, murder rates have risen. Whether one looks at Ireland, Jamaica or England and Wales, the experience has been the same. Not only did murder rates fail to decline as promised, but the rates actually increased following gun bans.

In general, gun-control laws disarm law-abiding citizens - not criminals who don't care about the law. The lesson is that freedom and safety go hand in hand.


I'm not going to attribute the DC crime drop to the cessation of the handgun ban, that ban never had too much effect to begin with, and the city has instituted such a Byzantine and onerous process for acquiring a gun permit that the numbers still remain low. What hasn't happened is the "Wild West" shootouts so favored as imagery by the advocates of gun control, and in fact they have never happened where previously strict laws were rolled back.

You may now commence moving the goalposts.


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Sand
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06 Mar 2010, 3:44 am

I admire your optimism and genuinely am interested in seeing if a larger distribution of guns will generate universal peace. Since I live outside the USA I can observe the results with a certain equanimity and personal calm as I am not a participating guinea pig.



auntblabby
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06 Mar 2010, 4:56 am

Sand wrote:
I admire your optimism and genuinely am interested in seeing if a larger distribution of guns will generate universal peace. Since I live outside the USA I can observe the results with a certain equanimity and personal calm as I am not a participating guinea pig.


lucky you.



T-rav20
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06 Mar 2010, 5:39 pm

Unfortunately it seems unlikely that the ban will be overturned under the Privileges or Immunities Clause. None of the justices took well to Alan Gura's arguments and Scalia, who is the strongest supporter of the 2nd Amendment on the supreme court and wrote the Heller majority was particularly hostile. a link to the transcript is below (PDF).

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_argu ... 8-1521.pdf


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Dox47
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06 Mar 2010, 11:14 pm

T-rav20 wrote:
Unfortunately it seems unlikely that the ban will be overturned under the Privileges or Immunities Clause. None of the justices took well to Alan Gura's arguments and Scalia, who is the strongest supporter of the 2nd Amendment on the supreme court and wrote the Heller majority was particularly hostile. a link to the transcript is below (PDF).

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_argu ... 8-1521.pdf


Yeah, I've been following it too, my hope for a ruling on Privileges and Immunities is admittedly optimistic in light of the comments coming from the bench, but I'm an optimistic guy. I had also hoped to frame this thread as something other than a straight gun control argument, I'm quite adept at debating that topic and as much as I enjoy metaphorically clubbing baby seals, I've done enough of that during my time here to look for a little something more interesting to occupy my time. Besides, either way the Constitutional precedents could be quite interesting, and I think that should be of interest to people far beyond the normal gun/anti-gun crowd.


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06 Mar 2010, 11:47 pm

I've actually realized I don't care about gun legislation a whole lot. I personally have no need of or use for firearms, and I tend to think that most people don't need guns. I don't particularly mind if other people own guns so long as they don't point them at me.


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T-rav20
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07 Mar 2010, 6:07 am

Dox47 wrote:
Yeah, I've been following it too, my hope for a ruling on Privileges and Immunities is admittedly optimistic in light of the comments coming from the bench, but I'm an optimistic guy. I had also hoped to frame this thread as something other than a straight gun control argument, I'm quite adept at debating that topic and as much as I enjoy metaphorically clubbing baby seals, I've done enough of that during my time here to look for a little something more interesting to occupy my time. Besides, either way the Constitutional precedents could be quite interesting, and I think that should be of interest to people far beyond the normal gun/anti-gun crowd.


Trying to reason with people that can't be reasoned with does seem sort of pointless after a while, doesn't it?

Anyway the best I'm hoping for at this point is that the decision doesn't eliminate Privileges or Immunities as grounds for a future case.


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zer0netgain
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07 Mar 2010, 9:34 pm

Laws such as found in Chicago, the State of Illinois and California have always confounded me. All of my legal education establishes that a state can offer MORE protection than afforded in the U.S. Constitution, but never LESS.

The level of gun control these places have enacted have blatantly infringed on what the Second Amendment clearly protects. I know past high court rulings have prohibited banning guns but allowed "regulation," but that only resulted in places attempting to "regulate" guns out of existence.

The Supreme Court should decided in short order that the Chicago laws are unconstitutional. I can't see how they would reason otherwise.



Dox47
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09 Mar 2010, 6:37 am

Another interesting piece of gun related law being argued is that several states have in effect challenged congress's authority under the "interstate commerce clause" of the constitution by passing laws exempting guns that never leave the state from federal law. I've long felt that congress has abused it's authority by declaring virtually anything they please as "interstate commerce", so I'd love to see those states succeed regardless of my own interest in the gun aspect. I was surprised to hear that my own solidly blue state has it's own version of the bill pending, and it would actually be pretty cool for me personally, since a lot of my ideas would have trouble at the prototype phase with the federal National Firearms Act, and the law passed I could pretty much build what I want so long as I don't cross state lines with it.


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