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Thom_Fuleri
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21 Mar 2010, 6:36 am

therange wrote:
I don't understand the big thing about having children, like you HAVE to do it. I mean everyone does it, why not do something more creative with your life?


Hurrah! Someone who feels the same way as me!
I have a cat. She's enough!



HopeGrows
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21 Mar 2010, 11:17 am

therange wrote:
I don't understand the big thing about having children, like you HAVE to do it. I mean everyone does it, why not do something more creative with your life?


Range - I don't think there should be a value judgment attached to deciding to have kids or not. Remaining childless is just as valid a choice as having kids. I think the only problem is when people who don't want kids have them, or when people who want kids can't have them. Either path requires creativity.


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Sedaka
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21 Mar 2010, 11:40 am

Not that I am sure how it weighs against issues such as over population/personal choice... But there are serious health issues that can arise in women who do not reproduce (eg- breast & uterine cancer).

I am ambivalent on the subject as I am already confronted with similar issues. Though having a kid now, could help alleviate much physical daily pain... I halfway just wanna get a hysterectomy now. I would say the mental stress I have over this issue during the times when I am more so in pain... Has affected my choices in the men I date... I have pursued a few relationships with men who did not want children. It has also implanted a hormonal irrationality (due to the thought of being unable to reproduce) that I want kids, although I cannot see myself as a mother (now).

Think I shall just throw my fate/uterus to the wind.


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HopeGrows
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21 Mar 2010, 12:22 pm

^Yeah, it's funny that our bodies kind of have a preference toward reproduction, isn't it? And there's nothing like having an option taken away (hysterectomy) to make you want to pursue that option. My mom was 42 when she had a hysterectomy due to uterine fibroids. She had five kids at the time (her youngest was 10), but my parents started considering adoption because it was so difficult for her to face forced sterility.

That said, if a hysterectomy becomes medically necessary for you, please keep in mind that you don't need a uterus to become a mother. There are plenty of kids (particularly in the foster care system) who are in need of loving, permanent homes (and marriage is not a requirement to become an adoptive parent, either). It's not necessarily for everyone, but adopting my daughter was the best decision I ever made.


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Sedaka
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21 Mar 2010, 1:38 pm

^^ That's exactly what I get... And ovarian cysts. They think I have endometriosis as well, as it runs in my family... But I've decided to not have surgery unless I absolutely have to... and you can't ID endo. w/o surgery. I just play musical-birthcontrol brand (which is all they'd do pretty much anyway, for the cysts and endo, if they find any) and manage the pain* (I'll even buy some pot from time to time if it gets bad for a long stretch :oops:)

edit:* and do follow up doctor visits as necessary


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AngelRho
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24 Mar 2010, 6:59 am

I can't believe someone would suggest that there are more creative things than having children! Having children is the pinnacle of all human creative effort. That's the one thing that puts the common person on the same level as the greatest minds on Earth. You wrote a symphony? The great American novel? A painting? Big deal, I made a PERSON! And at least from birth that person has the potential every opportunity to do all those kinds of things.

Compared with animals that are driven by an instinct to reproduce, we have control over ourselves enough to decide whether to reproduce or not. The fact that I can wake up one day and say "I think I'll make a person," well, it's almost--GOD--like. Seriously, someone is here going to underrate the power to create not just from things that exist in nature (music/sound, art, pen/paper) but to also bring forth new LIFE???

And the irony is while all the "great minds" out there, all the famous pop singers burning up the radios and all the famous geeks getting rich selling software, are famous for realizing great ideas and dazzling creative effort, even the very least of us will (normally) have access to the awesome power of life creation. Beyond that, parents are charged with molding and shaping that new life into the image of what the parents want for themselves (parents often want to see their children do better/have more than they do).

That's an incredible position of power and influence that MOST of us have. You can't say to someone who wants children to find something better to do. There's nothing better than that!

BTW--I'm am electronic musician with a degree in composition. Creative effort is something I tend to obsess about. I envy those people, painters and novelists, who can do amazing things visually and linguistically. But then again, the guitarist in my band is always amazed by what I do with synthesizers and audio editors--he says I'm a genius. I don't think so... But I have to say my two children are my greatest work!



Asp-Z
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24 Mar 2010, 12:09 pm

I AM loved, by another Aspie.



Asp-Z
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24 Mar 2010, 12:11 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I can't believe someone would suggest that there are more creative things than having children! Having children is the pinnacle of all human creative effort. That's the one thing that puts the common person on the same level as the greatest minds on Earth. You wrote a symphony? The great American novel? A painting? Big deal, I made a PERSON! And at least from birth that person has the potential every opportunity to do all those kinds of things.


I'd rather make a lot of money, I'm sure - even though it's a lot of work - it's a lot easier than raising children and putting up with all the stress that comes with it. It's also less likely to make you bankrupt :lol:



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24 Mar 2010, 1:07 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
I AM loved, by another Aspie.


I thought your gf was NT.


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ursaminor
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24 Mar 2010, 1:18 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I can't believe someone would suggest that there are more creative things than having children! Having children is the pinnacle of all human creative effort. That's the one thing that puts the common person on the same level as the greatest minds on Earth. You wrote a symphony? The great American novel? A painting? Big deal, I made a PERSON! And at least from birth that person has the potential every opportunity to do all those kinds of things.

Compared with animals that are driven by an instinct to reproduce, we have control over ourselves enough to decide whether to reproduce or not. The fact that I can wake up one day and say "I think I'll make a person," well, it's almost--GOD--like. Seriously, someone is here going to underrate the power to create not just from things that exist in nature (music/sound, art, pen/paper) but to also bring forth new LIFE???

And the irony is while all the "great minds" out there, all the famous pop singers burning up the radios and all the famous geeks getting rich selling software, are famous for realizing great ideas and dazzling creative effort, even the very least of us will (normally) have access to the awesome power of life creation. Beyond that, parents are charged with molding and shaping that new life into the image of what the parents want for themselves (parents often want to see their children do better/have more than they do).

That's an incredible position of power and influence that MOST of us have. You can't say to someone who wants children to find something better to do. There's nothing better than that!

BTW--I'm am electronic musician with a degree in composition. Creative effort is something I tend to obsess about. I envy those people, painters and novelists, who can do amazing things visually and linguistically. But then again, the guitarist in my band is always amazed by what I do with synthesizers and audio editors--he says I'm a genius. I don't think so... But I have to say my two children are my greatest work!
I doubt that.
I think life is not that special.
It happens all the time, and lots of people can do it.
I think creating planets that can harbour life would be a much greater accomplishment.



Asp-Z
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24 Mar 2010, 1:36 pm

HopeGrows wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
I AM loved, by another Aspie.


I thought your gf was NT.


You're thinking of my old GF. Keep up! :lol:



Thom_Fuleri
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24 Mar 2010, 2:32 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I can't believe someone would suggest that there are more creative things than having children! Having children is the pinnacle of all human creative effort. That's the one thing that puts the common person on the same level as the greatest minds on Earth. You wrote a symphony? The great American novel? A painting? Big deal, I made a PERSON! And at least from birth that person has the potential every opportunity to do all those kinds of things.


It would be more impressive if you actually did make a person. As it is, you don't really do a thing - the person sort of makes themselves, and all you need to do is that squishy thing with someone else which often leads to children without meaning to.

If you ever feel that you're somehow godlike, remember two things:
1. Virtually anyone can have children, irrespective of intelligence, talent, money, suitability or desire. It's not special. I could father children myself if I wanted to (and in my case that would be a big deal, as I prefer to sleep with men).
2. You have no say in HOW the child develops. You don't even get to choose the gender, never mind affect any attributes!

On the other hand, writing a symphony is a special talent.



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24 Mar 2010, 10:55 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
HopeGrows wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
I AM loved, by another Aspie.


I thought your gf was NT.


You're thinking of my old GF. Keep up! :lol:


Sorry about that, Romeo. :wink:


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CrinklyCrustacean
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29 Mar 2010, 4:41 am

Thom_Fuleri wrote:
You have no say in HOW the child develops. You don't even get to choose the gender, never mind affect any attributes!


Yes, you do. The quality of your parenting can have a BIG effect on how the child sees themselves and the rest of the world. Surely the many children who have messed up lives because of the broken homes they grew up in are a testament to that?



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29 Mar 2010, 12:36 pm

CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
Thom_Fuleri wrote:
You have no say in HOW the child develops. You don't even get to choose the gender, never mind affect any attributes!


Yes, you do. The quality of your parenting can have a BIG effect on how the child sees themselves and the rest of the world. Surely the many children who have messed up lives because of the broken homes they grew up in are a testament to that?


To a certain extent this is true, and how the child's id, ego and superego work are molded by the parents too.

But you also can't expect a child to be fully obedient and agree with the parents all the time, because that won't happen, and would be unhealthy if it did.



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29 Mar 2010, 2:31 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
Thom_Fuleri wrote:
You have no say in HOW the child develops. You don't even get to choose the gender, never mind affect any attributes!


Yes, you do. The quality of your parenting can have a BIG effect on how the child sees themselves and the rest of the world. Surely the many children who have messed up lives because of the broken homes they grew up in are a testament to that?


To a certain extent this is true, and how the child's id, ego and superego work are molded by the parents too.

But you also can't expect a child to be fully obedient and agree with the parents all the time, because that won't happen, and would be unhealthy if it did.


@Asp-Z, I don't think @CrinklyCrustacean meant to imply that parenting results in complete obedience or anything. I think that when children act out is when parents are most challenged, and when they have to be their most creative (to correct the child's behavior without damaging him/her).

@Thom_Fuleri, I do totally agree with @CrinklyCrustacean on this one. I think parents have huge influence regarding how a child develops. Even if you look at just the basics: proper nutrition, safety, medical attention, etc. - quality of care makes a huge difference. When you look at the "other" basics: love, effective discipline, involvement in education, exposure to art, sports, music, culture....the impact is equally huge. When I compare the person my daughter is to her biological half-sibs (most of whom were raised by the woman who gave birth to my daughter) - the difference is stunning. And I don't think that's because I'm such an amazing parent - but I have been able to provide the "basics" for my child, and IMO, that's made all the difference.


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