This kind of stuff is happening with alarming frequency

Page 1 of 2 [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

14 Mar 2010, 10:50 pm

Dox47 wrote:
I view this as a sign of a sea change in thinking on the Right. The way they see it, the Left has dominated the education field for many years, and has used their control to instill their values into the students, evidence of this train of thought can be seen in the large number of evangelicals who choose to home school rather than send their children to what they view as indoctrination centers. As a product of the US public school system, I have to say that their fears aren't entirely baseless, that educators tend to skew Left is fairly well documented, and it's not unreasonable to expect some of those views to filter down to the students. I certainly experienced it, my 10th grade social studies teacher had quotes by Chomsky painted on his walls, ran for congress on the Green party ticket, and staged personal "interventions" on any of his students who expressed interest in joining the military, and that's just what I recall off the top of my head.

My public education was very right-wing. My teachers were largely creationists, pro-war, pro-life, etc.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

14 Mar 2010, 10:52 pm

I can see Dox's point, as it is likely the case that a lot of this is pushback. I would have to say that I think that some of the rightwing changes are bad on intellectual grounds, but obviously not all though such as the inclusion of information justifying McCarthyism in the Cold War, or bringing up free market economists such as Hayek or Friedman(I am not sure if it is mentioned here but it was mentioned in other places talking about the story).

I do think that the last comment about "regulation" is wrong-headed though. The state is the purchaser. This isn't a regulatory policy so much as a purchasing decision in terms of governmental contracts. The fact that Texas was a major purchaser has been known for a long period of time.



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

14 Mar 2010, 10:58 pm

Orwell wrote:
My public education was very right-wing. My teachers were largely creationists, pro-war, pro-life, etc.


You went to school in Ohio IIRC? Needless to say your experience there differed dramatically from mine in Seattle, but I've seen you reference the poll data showing a preponderance of educators being politically liberal, so I know that you're aware that your situation was far from common. I'm certainly not saying that conservative thought is completely missing from the education system, but that it's badly underrepresented in relation to liberal ideas.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

14 Mar 2010, 11:18 pm

Dox47 wrote:
You went to school in Ohio IIRC? Needless to say your experience there differed dramatically from mine in Seattle, but I've seen you reference the poll data showing a preponderance of educators being politically liberal, so I know that you're aware that your situation was far from common. I'm certainly not saying that conservative thought is completely missing from the education system, but that it's badly underrepresented in relation to liberal ideas.

Professors are overwhelmingly liberal, public high school teachers are different. I'll grant that they are probably more liberal outside of Ohio, but I doubt it's completely unbalanced. In any case, a neutral, objective education will definitely not lead people to support the Republican party. As I'm sure you are aware, reality has a well-known liberal bias.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

14 Mar 2010, 11:20 pm

Orwell wrote:
Professors are overwhelmingly liberal, public high school teachers are different. I'll grant that they are probably more liberal outside of Ohio, but I doubt it's completely unbalanced. In any case, a neutral, objective education will definitely not lead people to support the Republican party. As I'm sure you are aware, reality has a well-known liberal bias.

They are different, but they are generally more liberal. They tend to be unionized government employees. That will tend to impact their biases.

I wouldn't say that reality has a liberal bias. (And yes, I know that this is going back to a Colbert joke)



Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

14 Mar 2010, 11:24 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I wouldn't say that reality has a liberal bias. (And yes, I know that this is going back to a Colbert joke)

I would say it actually does, at least if you are regarding American conservatism as the alternative.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

14 Mar 2010, 11:27 pm

Dox47 wrote:
I view this as a sign of a sea change in thinking on the Right. The way they see it, the Left has dominated the education field for many years, and has used their control to instill their values into the students, evidence of this train of thought can be seen in the large number of evangelicals who choose to home school rather than send their children to what they view as indoctrination centers. As a product of the US public school system, I have to say that their fears aren't entirely baseless, that educators tend to skew Left is fairly well documented, and it's not unreasonable to expect some of those views to filter down to the students. I certainly experienced it, my 10th grade social studies teacher had quotes by Chomsky painted on his walls, ran for congress on the Green party ticket, and staged personal "interventions" on any of his students who expressed interest in joining the military, and that's just what I recall off the top of my head.

So, while on the one hand I revile the politicizing of the education system that's going on here, on the other I feel that education has skewed to the opposite set of politics for years, and that having another dog in the race might help balance that out in the long run. The evangelical set might be able to flex it's muscles in their traditional strongholds such as Texas, over the rest of the country the impact will be mitigated by the politics local to those areas. In a perfect world I'd prefer neutral education taught by neutral instructors, but given what we have to work with, I'm hoping for ideological stalemate.


It is a rather distorted point of view to consider the total Bible pseudo-scientific BS on an equal intellectual plane with actual scientific discovery that has revolutionized the world.



psychohist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,623
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

14 Mar 2010, 11:51 pm

Aimless wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/13/texas-textbook-massacre-u_n_498003.html

I think we have dismissed these wing nuts at our peril.

I don't think the wingnuts at the Huffington Post are as dangerous as all that.

I mean, sure, they're probably wrong about Jefferson being a Deist - Jefferson himself claimed to be Christian - but it's probably just wishful thinking. Jefferson may have disbelieved in some of the miracles reported by the apostles, but so do lots of nonfundamentalist Christians. No one is likely to fall for the Huffington Post's apparent belief that all Christians are fundamentalists that believe in the literal truth of every word in some English version of the bible. If the Post were worried about George Washington, who probably was a deist, it might be different - but probably not, since Washington left the philosophy behind the American Revolution to the real philosophers, rather than writing things that added little to their works as Jefferson did.

Now, it's true that the natural American urge is to ignore any important portions of history that happened outside the U.S., so the Post might be more successful at keeping students from learning about the reformation and associated philosophers like Aquinas and Calvin. Still, they are sufficiently politically correct that they probably don't really want to ignore the entire rest of the world, so those portions of the curriculum would be more likely replaced by other often neglected parts of overseas history - perhaps less politically volatile subjects such as some history of China or Japan.

As for the Post's desire to suppress the idea that the U.S. government is fundamentally based on our constitution, I doubt they'll be successful at turning the U.S. to the banana republic style of democracy such have at times been common in Latin America. Too many people understand the difference between a democracy with a strong Constitution to protect people's rights by limiting the power of the government, and one where a dictatorship of the majority prevails. The Huffington Post's desire to keep students ignorant of economics will hopefully be unsuccessful as well.



Descartes
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Apr 2008
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,288
Location: Texas, unfortunately

15 Mar 2010, 12:36 am

psychohist wrote:
Aimless wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/13/texas-textbook-massacre-u_n_498003.html

I think we have dismissed these wing nuts at our peril.

I don't think the wingnuts at the Huffington Post are as dangerous as all that.

I mean, sure, they're probably wrong about Jefferson being a Deist - Jefferson himself claimed to be Christian - but it's probably just wishful thinking. Jefferson may have disbelieved in some of the miracles reported by the apostles, but so do lots of nonfundamentalist Christians. No one is likely to fall for the Huffington Post's apparent belief that all Christians are fundamentalists that believe in the literal truth of every word in some English version of the bible. If the Post were worried about George Washington, who probably was a deist, it might be different - but probably not, since Washington left the philosophy behind the American Revolution to the real philosophers, rather than writing things that added little to their works as Jefferson did.

Now, it's true that the natural American urge is to ignore any important portions of history that happened outside the U.S., so the Post might be more successful at keeping students from learning about the reformation and associated philosophers like Aquinas and Calvin. Still, they are sufficiently politically correct that they probably don't really want to ignore the entire rest of the world, so those portions of the curriculum would be more likely replaced by other often neglected parts of overseas history - perhaps less politically volatile subjects such as some history of China or Japan.

As for the Post's desire to suppress the idea that the U.S. government is fundamentally based on our constitution, I doubt they'll be successful at turning the U.S. to the banana republic style of democracy such have at times been common in Latin America. Too many people understand the difference between a democracy with a strong Constitution to protect people's rights by limiting the power of the government, and one where a dictatorship of the majority prevails. The Huffington Post's desire to keep students ignorant of economics will hopefully be unsuccessful as well.


Jefferson was more of a deist than anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_religion



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

15 Mar 2010, 12:54 am

Sand wrote:
It is a rather distorted point of view to consider the total Bible pseudo-scientific BS on an equal intellectual plane with actual scientific discovery that has revolutionized the world.


I don't consider the Bible to be anything more than an overwritten fantasy epic, and nowhere in my post do I even mention it, let alone hold it equal to the discoveries of science. What I said is that one ideology has had defacto control of the education system for many years, and I don't have too much of a problem that their political foes have decided to push back.


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson


druidsbird
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Age: 43
Gender: Female
Posts: 505
Location: not Alderaan

19 Mar 2010, 2:58 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
All Christians are bigots, and all bigots are Christians. And bigots are worse than serial killers, wife beaters, and child molesters put together.


Ouch.

Tim_Tex, I'm sure you said this out of strong emotion. Obviously something happened in your life to make you think badly of Christians. And I'm sure you're quite justified to be angry about whatever happened.

I'm a Christian, and I'm one of those Christians who wants to see all the whacko bigot hypocritical pedophile creeps stripped of the label and sent where they belong--Oklahoma.

I mean. We're not *all* bigots. Some of us really do just want peace. :(


_________________
Darth Vader. Cool.


fidelis
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 567
Location: Somewhere in the deeper corners of my mind.

19 Mar 2010, 3:28 am

Sand wrote:
Perhaps the solution is to get rid of textbooks. They are heavy and clumsy and archaic instruments. A mere list of sites on the internet for students to view and use as the basis for classes would be cheaper and more flexible for daily classes and probably more interesting and have more penetrating material than the standard textbook.


I haven't used a textbook in any of my classes besides psych and biology. I think I've learned the foundations of the no textbook classes better than the textbook classes.


_________________
I just realized that I couldn't possibly realize what I just realized.


fixated
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

Joined: 7 Jul 2015
Age: 31
Posts: 3

07 Jul 2015, 6:17 am

I grew up in Texas. The textbooks are already awful and don't tell you s**t. Most of my history is what I've learned well outside of class. And it took me a while as I was basically re-learning everything, but I realized just how incredibly biased they already were.

Texan public education is genuinely awful by design. Thank god for those dedicated teachers out there.



Marky9
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Mar 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,625
Location: USA

07 Jul 2015, 9:20 am

Oh dear. The Texas Board of Education is at it yet again. :roll:


_________________
"Righteous indignation is best left to those who are better able to handle it." - Bill W.


OliveOilMom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,447
Location: About 50 miles past the middle of nowhere

07 Jul 2015, 9:26 am

But the US is a republic. Why is it wrong to teach that it is?


_________________
I'm giving it another shot. We will see.
My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA. ;-)

The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

07 Jul 2015, 12:01 pm

Marky9 wrote:
Oh dear. The Texas Board of Education is at it yet again. :roll:


At it again 5 years ago...


_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson