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Sound
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04 May 2010, 7:04 pm

zen_mistress wrote:
I wouldnt call it a cliff notes page, the page comes from his own official website, and he would have to have approved that page so he would presumably be happy with it.

I never disagreed with his basic concept of challenging the idea of male power, and suggesting its basis is not being in a position of power. But I think many of the points in the summary are quite suspect, and innacurate. I think he starts out with a good concept but then throws the baby out with the bathwater.

So you're not interested in hearing what he has to say to back up those items on the notes? Pretty much all of it gets covered in the interview. The things that have been highlighted by you & alana are given much more basis. The notes are extremely abrupt, room only given for bare-assertion, which makes it quite easy to pick apart and dismiss. In comparison, the interview gives context, lists the support for the ideas, and he mentions his sources.



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04 May 2010, 9:39 pm

He probably wrote the notes himself, seeing as the website is there to market and promote his book. If he doesnt express his ideas very well in bullet points, it doesnt make me want to watch 19 you tube videos, particularly given that the bandwidth here wont allow me to watch that many without generating a big bill.

I am sorry if he had difficulties with that page but if he is going to write provocative statements like this instead of taking the time to express hmself properly:

http://www.warrenfarrell.org/TheBook/index.html

• Prohibition against divorce gave women security in their workplace (the home). Nothing gave men security in their workplace. P.36


Nice that the home is the woman's workplace.


• Men commit suicide more often when they are unemployed or lose their life savings, so by killing himself, he is "killing the burden," making his suicide an act of love. P.171
• Women attempt suicide more often because they want to become the priority of those they love rather than always prioritizing them. P.171


Interesting that he think male suicide is an act of love whereas female suicide is an act of selfishness


• The teenage female has less demand to perform and more resources to attract love. Her body and mind are more genetic gifts. P.166
• A teenage boy's socialization is the demand to perform without the resources to perform. P.167

So beng a teenage girl is a bowl of cherrries whereas being a teenage boy is very difficult? Not all teenage girls look like supermodels as he seem to think. Eating disorders and cosmetic surgery are a big issue because of the so-called "genetic gifts" that are supposed to advantage females so much.



• Black men, Indian men, and gay men have all have something in common: They do not provide an economic security blanket for women. P.206



Racist?


• The married male executive has a wife who is a financial burden. A married female executive has a husband who is a financial buffer. P.199

....

if he is going to make statemnts like this and expect women not to be rubbed up the wrong way then really I dont know what to make of him.


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Sound
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04 May 2010, 11:03 pm

zen_mistress wrote:
He probably wrote the notes himself, seeing as the website is there to market and promote his book.
That's ... kinda what author websites tend to do... This is not exactly unusual.

zen_mistress wrote:
I am sorry if he had difficulties with that page but if he is going to write provocative statements like this instead of taking the time to express hmself properly:

Some ideas are more nuanced than can be fully explained within one-sentence-or-less bullet-points. Surely that is understandable to you given the subjects at hand...?

zen_mistress wrote:
• Prohibition against divorce gave women security in their workplace (the home). Nothing gave men security in their workplace. P.36

Nice that the home is the woman's workplace.

...Are you implying he is a chauvinist? Anti-feminist?
Anyways, in terms of classic gender roles, especially in the past, that was very often true. He is not talking about how it should be, he's observing a reality.

zen_mistress wrote:
• Men commit suicide more often when they are unemployed or lose their life savings, so by killing himself, he is "killing the burden," making his suicide an act of love. P.171
• Women attempt suicide more often because they want to become the priority of those they love rather than always prioritizing them. P.171

Interesting that he think male suicide is an act of love whereas female suicide is an act of selfishness
A prime example of the sacrifice of nuance for bullet-points. He is speaking of a particular subset of suicides, and not all suicides.
Do you believe that men & women generally commit suicide for the same reasons?

zen_mistress wrote:
• The teenage female has less demand to perform and more resources to attract love. Her body and mind are more genetic gifts. P.166
• A teenage boy's socialization is the demand to perform without the resources to perform. P.167

So beng a teenage girl is a bowl of cherrries whereas being a teenage boy is very difficult? Not all teenage girls look like supermodels as he seem to think. Eating disorders and cosmetic surgery are a big issue because of the so-called "genetic gifts" that are supposed to advantage females so much.
Yeah, this one's fuzzy. But my impression is this is partly due to oversimplification. Even if that's true, it may still be off-base.

zen_mistress wrote:
• Black men, Indian men, and gay men have all have something in common: They do not provide an economic security blanket for women. P.206

Racist?

When taken out of context? Yes.

zen_mistress wrote:
• The married male executive has a wife who is a financial burden. A married female executive has a husband who is a financial buffer. P.199

....
And, once again, the context is key. This statement does not describe his point, on it's own.

zen_mistress wrote:
if he is going to make statemnts like this and expect women not to be rubbed up the wrong way then really I dont know what to make of him.

Honestly, I don't know why he put up those bullet-points. Even if they derive from his larger points, they require more explaining than a bullet-point is capable of doing. Bad move, IMO.

Nonetheless, I would've looked forward to some good criticism from someone sharp like you... It's a shame you're not interested in hearing the ideas out. I hope you change your mind; perhaps you could give good, informed counterpoints and criticism from that perspective, once informed. It's comparatively difficult to fully factor in the 'other side of the issue' for me, as a guy.



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04 May 2010, 11:27 pm

I dont have a lot of time to look at all the information. I will try and watch a couple of the you tubes, but can you blame me for getting a bad impression from that page?

It goes on about war like it is women forcing men to go to war for them while they sit at home and eat bon-bons, but men are actually wired for war, and hunting, and fighting, whereas women are wired to sacrifice their lives for a child, carrying it in their bodies and giving birth. I dont see any sexism in the fact that women dont go to war as much. When men eject babies out of their nether regions like a scene from V, then I will assume my equal role as a warrior, but not before then. I am not physiclly tall or strong enough to be a good warrior, nor is my gun aim good.

Millions of women have died in childbirth since humans have been around but there is not a single monument commemorating the fact that they gave their lives up for a child. Perhaps there should be one, I dont know.

He says men are "the disposable gender", ignoring the millions of chinese baby girls who have been disposed of this century by parents who want a boy. So yes, the bullet point list is pretty questionable in my view.

As for the suicide bit, I actually miread that. But it seems to me now that that page has little to do with what is in the you tubes, and I had pretty much presumed, as the list said it was a synopsis of the book, that it would be in line with the you tubes. At any rate I would rather read the book than watch the you tubes anyway.


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Sound
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05 May 2010, 12:26 am

That's understandable. And it's understandable that his page paints a pretty bad picture. A shame that it's not a little better made.

I'd love to hear your thoughts if you do read it. Maybe I'll run across a used copy, and read it in full... But I also have a note of reluctance because I'm going to be very susceptible to influence on this subject. I need a contrarian view (hence my grabbing onto this thread like a rottweiler), a counterbalance. I don't trust that I could manage it myself.

Regarding men being wired for war, there may be truth to that... To a point. But our cultures also servers to greatly amplify that theme. It doesn't need to be that way. And, as this guy claims, there have been instances in history where a culture has been okay for food, and had closed, secure borders(like an island), which apparently promoted a far less conflict-oriented man.

Regarding the 'disposable sex' part, even if the Chinese example is notable and tragic, the nature of men's 'disposability' is worldwide and long-running. It's so intrinsic to our histories and cultures that we take it for granted. The only reason that it's at-issue now is because our societies no longer have to worry about basic survival, which is what the gender roles came from. Thus the original configurations - including such details as the automatic preference of multiple dead men over a single dead woman - are no longer entirely logical.

And yes, it's possible that women do deserve a bit more attention regarding the sacrifice of motherhood and childbirth. *shrug* So long as we don't completely miss the quiet, intrinsic obligations of manhood.



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05 May 2010, 3:24 am

Sound wrote:
That's understandable. And it's understandable that his page paints a pretty bad picture. A shame that it's not a little better made.

I'd love to hear your thoughts if you do read it. Maybe I'll run across a used copy, and read it in full... But I also have a note of reluctance because I'm going to be very susceptible to influence on this subject. I need a contrarian view (hence my grabbing onto this thread like a rottweiler), a counterbalance. I don't trust that I could manage it myself.

Regarding men being wired for war, there may be truth to that... To a point. But our cultures also servers to greatly amplify that theme. It doesn't need to be that way. And, as this guy claims, there have been instances in history where a culture has been okay for food, and had closed, secure borders(like an island), which apparently promoted a far less conflict-oriented man.

Regarding the 'disposable sex' part, even if the Chinese example is notable and tragic, the nature of men's 'disposability' is worldwide and long-running. It's so intrinsic to our histories and cultures that we take it for granted. The only reason that it's at-issue now is because our societies no longer have to worry about basic survival, which is what the gender roles came from. Thus the original configurations - including such details as the automatic preference of multiple dead men over a single dead woman - are no longer entirely logical.

And yes, it's possible that women do deserve a bit more attention regarding the sacrifice of motherhood and childbirth. *shrug* So long as we don't completely miss the quiet, intrinsic obligations of manhood.


Well I dont think men are wired for conflict any more or less than women are. But when it comes to war games, guns, thing like that- little boys often love this sort of stuff, with little prompting, though of course not all boys do. My friend decided she would not bring her son up with any gender role and that he could play with whatever he liked.. and he gravitated towards cars, gun toys, tools, planes at the age of 2. Another little boy I know is like a little engineer, always trying to build planes, train tracks, airports.. this stuff really is hardwired. Some men sign up for the military because they really want to be in it. Other men do not want that of course and I think it is sad if they end up going to war.

I just dont see that disposable thing he is talking about. Our ancestors didnt see it that way, they saw it as a man's duty to sacrifice themselves protecting their family, and women being saved was as much to do with their children needing their mother as a woman who is smaller and more vulnerable needing their protection. It was sort of a romantic, chivalrous thing, though nowadays that is not how men view joining the military anymore. But i think now women can go to war if they want and feel they are up to the challenge, and recently some women have gone to Iraq or Afghanistan.

Anyway I think I might pick up the book if i see it around somewhere. I will let you know what I think of it. :)


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10 May 2010, 4:05 pm

zen_mistress wrote:
• Black men, Indian men, and gay men have all have something in common: They do not provide an economic security blanket for women. P.206

Racist?.

If you considered that he used a sweeping statement that describe all black races.

He should have said black people who descended from slaves. In his book, he explains how being a slave has affected black men. Ironically, I made the same mention of it in previous post.

Slavery was like an extreme form of socialism. The males role as a father was limited and substituted by the state( the slave master). A hard working slave only meant more profits for the slave master NOT support for there child. So what use did a hard working black man have? Slavery has effected the evolution of black people.

Modern society is heading that way. The supportive and providing man is no longer required because the state provides. And the man where quite literally surplus to requirements starting with the lower class men. And many people think that lower class men in a rich country should be happy because they have a worm place to sleep and enough food to eat.