Something interesting in the news this morning

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Ok....there is not a HUGE increase in autism....there is better understanding of the disorder and more kids and people are being diagnosed (in the "old" days if you were not severely affected you were not diagnosed). Same can be said with other Learning Disabilities. When I was a kid you were just lazy and refused to learn!! !! Also...there are more people therefore more disorders and more people diagnosed with said disorders. There is more allergies due to our need to be overprotective and our germaphobic nature. People dont let their kids play in the mud and eat worms anymore....there was no hand sanitizer when I was a kid. I was exposed to bacteria and my body "learned" to fight these things off. Our immune system needs to "learn" it needs to combat illness and bacteria or it is overwhelmed and this quickly becomes a genetic factor. A person with an immune system that has been too protected is likely to give birth to children with immune problems....possible food allergies, ect. Also we used to ignore food allergies unless there was Anaphylaxis. Things that we used to fight off we and our over use of antibiotics have helped to become mutated bacteria like Staph (MRSA).... and the flesh eating Strep.
I am so sick of the vaccine causes this and that bull. Vaccines teach your immune system to fight off diseases (without having to suffer the disease) that could potentially kill your child. I have heard all the arguments that there are vaccines which are not needed like the chickenpox vaccine.....there are some children who have died from chicken pox. I personally became very ill from chicken pox and now have nasty scars from it. My oldest son had them so bad they were in his throat and he had to be hospitalized. Also from having Chicken Pox you are more likely to develop shingles, which I had in my 20s and is very miserable and painful.
This is not a conspiracy of the government to poison our children. Vaccines were created to stop the spread of potentially lethal diseases.
Also, my last argument....if vaccines cause Autism and everything else. Why are there children who have Autism who have not been vaccinated? and why did children have it before many of the vaccines were even created?
I understand people wanting a reason but the fact is, it is just not as simple as "the government poisoned my kid".....everyone with Autism is different. In their symptoms, in their presentations (typical autism, regressive autism, asperger's) and their limitations and abilities. I saw a show, not long ago on Discovery Health. They showed a family with a child who had Autism, one with a child with Downs Syndrome and one who had this horrible disease that causes the childs skin to peel off her body. Usually these children do not live into their twenties. The mother spent hours every day wrapping her childs open skin, never once did I see the Mother cry or whine about her daughters disease. She was just occupied with making her comfortable and happy knowing that her life was going to be shortened. She of course was looking into possible treatments (stem cell) but there was no assurance that anything would or could work. The woman with the Autistic child cried and whined a lot. I think If I was the other woman I would have been insulted after watching (maybe thats just me). Also the people with the Downs Syndrome child were planning to adopt another child with Downs Syndrome and also had a very optimistic view of their child. Because of the media, this idiot doctor, and Jenny the moron, among others, Autism is viewed as some catastrophic disease. People need to wake up and smell the coffee!! !!
In my opinion more of the grants for research should go toward all of the, fatal diseases in children instead of finding the cause for Autism. More money should be spent on therapy for people who cant afford it! Here in California they took money away from the Regional Center....why dont we focus on that sort of thing instead of inane finger pointing and conspiracy theories. These things are real, they are facts. We know that the right kind of therapy helps kids with ASD's...lets focus on that!

I think most experts agree that there is some environmental factor increasing the severity of autism and / or incidence of debilitating co-morbids, but the evidence is leaning pretty strongly against vaccines being linked in any way, the stat's just don't show it, and in my area (state?) 4 infants (too young for vaccinations) DIED in the last whooping cough out break, meaning that the fear of such a link is having REAL COSTS to public health that are far worse than autism.

My list of things that should be studied includes, but is not limited to:

Fire retardant (known to cause brain damage, and infants CHEW their fire retardant PJ's, but no one knows how much most of us have in us)
Sensory overload (the trigger theory, similar to what happens with allergies; our world is multiple times noisier and visually busier than in past generations)
Increase in C sections (there are some theories that the birth canal experience is connected to sensory integration and of 3 emergency C's in my mom's group, 2 have extreme sensory issues)

I think that vaccines are pretty low on the list of things I'm actually worried about, they are just easier to grab onto and blame than the things I think are really contributing.

I would add pesticides to the list of things to worry about. Most pesticides are neurotoxic (at least for insects). They are supposedly safe for humans, but a recent study has shown that people who have large amounts of pesticide in their system are twice as likely to have ADHD (when compared to those without the pesticide).

As seen here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37156010/ns ... parenting/

The results are still preliminary, but it makes sense that a neurotoxin would cause brain damage in some people. Especially if those people have a genetic predisposition to neurotoxin susceptibility. No significant studies have been done to link autism with pesticides, but it at least has a basis in rationality. This whole vaccine thing isn't based on anything other then coincidental timing, crooked doctors paid to find a connection, and mass hysteria.

Sorry to get everyone in an uproar! I think this debate is one that will never be solved. There are people on the other side of the argument that feel just as strongly the other way. The government has paid settlements to families that have been injured by vaccines, so I don't think it is fair to say that vaccines are always safe in every case. I personally do not think they cause autism. I just think that some babies immune systems may not be ready to handle the large amounts of vaccines that are given at one time, that is all.

No uproar....I actually enjoy spewing my theories
Didnt mean to make you think I was angry with you or anything angelbear....its not you, its just that I wish people would be more logical and realistic about the whole thing. It upsets me that people waste time, money and energy in the wrong places. There are a lot of people who feel the same way I do but there are more ignorance about Autism than facts. The reason I was pleased to see the article I posted was because its one step closer to stamping out ignorance.
I understand people want to know WHY but to me its more important to "learn" what helps and put most of the effort there.
Again, sorry, I just get passionate and wordy .

No uproar. Just information, differing opinions ...

The thing is, there ARE studies that show exactly the same rate of autism in vaccinated children v. un-vaccinated, pretty much disproving any correlation, but those who believe in the connection call those studies "biased." Once you start buying into the big pharma conspiracy theory, it won't matter how many studies are run, until they get the results the believers expect, those studies will always be "biased."

I agree that it is worth questioning the timing and looking more closely at who should be vaccinated. One good thing that has come out of hysteria is that doctors do now have a more refined list of questions to ask before giving vaccinations. Clearly, mitochondrial conditions preclude vaccination, and that was the basis for the only semi-autism related compensation claim accepted.

My problem is that as long as the energy gets focused on vaccination, no one will look properly at all the other potential and more likely factors. It seems like time to move on, to me. But, heck, it's just my opinion. Although, of course, I am always right

No problem. I agree with many of the ideas that you all have. I have just been torn about the whole thing, and have read so much about it. When my son was first diagnosed, I did not understand how it could be because both my husband and I are NT. But after looking at some traits in my husband, and in other family members, I have come to believe that there is a genetic factor at play. No one on either side of our families has ever been diagnosed as full blown autism, but I do see some Aspie tendencies going on. So as time has gone on, and I have read so much and have seen all of the situations posted here on WP, I am becoming more and more convinced that it is largely genetic.
I guess it is just confusing when you read all of the reports in the media, and you hear other parents saying that their children were developing normal and boom they lost skills right after the shots, it can put fear into you. My son never lost skills, he has just developed at a much slower rate than other children. When I was trying to figure out what was going on with my son, I remember reading in the book "What to Expect in the Toddler Year's" written in 1996, it said that autism occurred in 4 out of 10,000 children. Now they are saying it is like 1 in 100 children. That in my mind does seem like a big increase. However, I do agree with you Lilolme, that lots of children years ago probably did have autistic characteristics, and they weren't diagnosed unless it was severe. Does this make up the difference in the numbers? I am not sure that is all there is to it, but I just don't think we know right now.

Anyway, I guess we all have our theories, but right now it is still a big question mark to me!! Glad that we are all so passionate! Hope you all have a great Memorial Day Weekend!

Im not saying there is not an increase in Autism Im just saying that it is not "huge" it has just been under diagnosed and in some states still is. The problem still remains that the general public and even doctors are somewhat ignorant of what Autism really is. They are looking for the obvious, seriously affected kids and missing the ones who present in more subtle ways. We had to point out to our doctors that "our daughter is not responding to us, she is not pointing, she is not waving, she is not talking" before they got concerned. She was cute, would smile and make fleeting eye contact. My daughter could have been diagnosed much sooner and would perhaps be doing even better than she is had they been more aware....or had we been more aware. This was only a little over two years ago and I didnt know anything about Autism beyond Rainman. I even had one of the doctors in my practice that saw Maddy at her 4 year check up walk into the room and have the audacity to say "I see that Maddy was diagnosed with Autism, I think it would be hard to make that diagnosis now". Maddy was standing with her back to the door babbling with a few words thrown in here and there and drawing on a chalk board and spinning around every now and then. She did not even turn around to see who came into the room and the doctor didnt even try to talk to or engage Maddy at all.
Maybe she was trying to make me feel better, I dont know. I just looked at her and said "uhhh, Ok!". Just because she was animated and drawing at age 4 she looked "typical"? I mean, at the time I just blew her off but after thinking about it, it really bothered me. Not that Im upset that people dont "see" the autism but the fact that a medical professional should be able to. Guess what?? you can be cute and still have Autism.....shocker!
I am happy to say that now my doctors office has posters that list early warning signs and seem to be better educated.

Still the media is mainly showing the more severely affected kids so still, in some instances its being missed. Ive heard stories from people who say, my niece or nephew is not speaking and she/he is almost 3 years old? Doctors are still telling people to wait it out.
It might make for good TV to show only the kids with severe sensory problems that are very outwardly visible but that is not an accurate view of most kids with Autism. I have to give credit to HBO for putting out shows like Autism the Musical and the Temple Grandin movie. Now if we could just get rid of Autism Speaks and Jenny McCarthy we would all be better off.

I know what you mean. I had trouble myself believing that my son had autism because he has always had good eye contact and smiled and was lovable and cuddly with me and had words. It took a lot of reading and observation of other children to realize that my son was affected. When we go places, most people would not know my son has autism unless he starts flapping his hands, or unless they start to try and have a conversation. Even then, he is now starting to be able to have small back and forth conversations with adults. Even my mother in law really doesn't think anything is wrong, because she never sees him around other kids. When he is by himself, he appears somewhat "normal", but when you put him in a room full of his peers, the differences are very apparent.

If we're going to have civil discourse I would really appreciate if you didn't roll your eyes at my post.

Could we maintain some respect here, even if you disagree with my ideas?

Perhaps you've never investigated the biological aspects of autism, instead focusing on the neurological aspects or the behavioural aspects as most people do. Perhaps your view is strictly from an allopathic paradigm. Mine is a mix of allopathic and naturopathic, because that is my background.

I myself am no longer that interested in what causes autism. Since I accept and appreciate autism for what it is, I don't really need to know. Currently, I am VERY interested in ways that autism can be treated to limit the negative aspects of it or even debilitating aspects of it. Or, if you'd prefere, the challenging aspects that can interfere with a peron's well-being and comfort such as sensory overload, nervousness, anxiety, intestinal issues, the ability to focus and the like. These things are quite common in the autistic population, although they do not affect everyone. Perhaps they do not affect you or someone that you love, hence the rolling of the eyes.

The idea that people are no longer exposed to enough bacteria and have weakened immunity because of it is interesting, very plausible but still AN IDEA. I know that I played in the dirt a lot and travelled a lot and have been exposed to all sorts of bacteria, friendly and non. My son had a terrible allergic reaction to the lanolin that the nurses gave me to put on my sore nipples the second day of his life. So, that theory deosn't apply to him. And it just went on from there. Dermatitis, food allergies, chemical sensitivities, then asthma, and finally, autism. That's the course of our medical awareness.

He was not immunized as a baby, incidentally. He's had one shot.

I myself, DO NOT BELIEVE that VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM as I've already stated.

However, for EXTREMELY sensitive people like my son, who has some kind of immune issues that noone can quite understand and trouble detoxifying things the preservatives --such as alluminum--contained in a vaccine could really cause trouble for him. Cause physiological trouble, not CAUSE AUTISM. OK?

Vaccines coupled with processed food, off-gassing from the plastics in a home, pesticides, lead traces from peoples shoes in the carpet, air pollution, in-utero toxic exposure, and other chemical exposures can completely overwhelm a malfunctioning immune system is what I'm suggesting.

Are you saying that vaccines are completely, 100 percent safe for every single human being on the planet? There is no such thing man-made thing! Some children/adults have terrible reactions, where they get sick. That's just a fact. Having a cascade effect, coupled with other factors that I've mentioned, worsoning symptoms in autistic people or even triggering them is a theory. One being vigorously explored by some allopathic physicians and naturopathic physicians. But if you solely rely on the AMA for all of your information then you may discount anything outside of what the AMA finds to be true.

I waited until my sensitive little man was 3 years and 3 months old before I gave him the DTaP shot. I couldn't take the risk of him getting whooping cough with his asthma. Then I had his blood drawn to check his titers to see if he was, in fact, immune.

Did you know that the reason that children are given 4 shots of DTaP is to cover the small percentage of children who need that much to become immune? I can't remember the exact percentages, but it is something like 70% are immune after the 1st shot, then 85% after the 2nd shot, 90% after the 3rd, and so on. It's a small percentage of people who need that 4th shot, but everyone is given 4 for the sake of convenience.

There is a more intelligent way of administering vaccines. One where a child's familial background would be checked for neurological issues. If so, that child should be given vaccines cautiously. What is wrong with individualizing the vaccine schedule? I fully support vaccines but not the way they are being administered today. AND, I would like to see all heavy metals removed from them. I also think that some people should be older when they receive them, when their immune systems are more mature. Also, it should be understood that not every person should have every shot, some people cannot tolerate them as they are today.

I would never ask a person to sacrifice their child's health and well-being for the sake of the community-at-large.

Last edited by tenzinsmom on 01 Jun 2010, 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't think this was addressed to me, but I do not think that ANYONE will argue that vaccines are 100% safe. If that were true, the government would not have a compensation program. There simply is no way to predict how every possible unique individual will react to the process of vaccination, but thankfully more information is being gathered all the time, and perhaps someday it will be accurately pinpointed. The argument is more that we trust the cost-benefit analysis that led up to the decision that children need to be vaccinated.

The problem is, what exactly IS the risk? The risk of harm to any one individual from vaccination is incredibly small, while the risk to the community and, more specifically, the vulnerable members in it (infants, those with impaired immunity who cannot be vaccinated, etc) of NOT vaccinating is very, very large. So, when put on the scale, it can come across as selfish for someone to choose not to vaccinate because they simply don't want to incur ANY risk. Your situation is different; you have solid, solid reasons to believe that your one unique child is at increased risk of adverse reactions. That is not, however, true of most parents I know who have chosen not to vaccinate; their reasoning is a lot more hazy and, well, even they will admit - selfish. I try to respect it, but my questions are getting tougher. However, if I was one of those parents whose infants had died this winter from whooping cough - I'd be angry, and rightfully so.

It sounds like you've done far more research and gotten in deeper than most, and because of your son's health issues I would absolutely have made the same choices your have. But we have to all be careful of the soundbites that can be made from our statements, and what gets out into the public. I was saddened to read about so many preventable deaths in this last outbreak, because it does seem to be the result of misinformation and selfishness. I don't live surrounded by a lot of kids with highly weakened immune systems; I live surrounded by parents who feel they have the luxury of watching out for their own, and only their own, and one of them took their child outside of the country on a fancy vacation and returned with whooping cough from which their child recovered, but others have not, and the spread has been frightening.

If I did not get the vaccines, I would still be autistic.

Im sorry but I think its a bit silly to get this upset over my posting an emoticon.
Also you are talking about my theories and taking them as a personal attack on you and your son when I said nothing about your post or you at all, I only responded to angelbear!

I woke up this morning and decided to edit my post. I am sorry that you thought that I was attacking you. I was only posting my theories and they come from not only scientific studies (ie the germaphopic and over use of antibiotic) also from people like Temple Grandin and my husband who is a Biologist and researches genetics. I posted the little eye rolly emoticon because of your comment that studies will stop....they have already stopped studying the autism/vaccine theory. You say that you do not believe that vaccine causes Autism but worried about your sons fragile immune system at such a young age. This I understand and Im not saying that vaccines can not cause an allergic reaction in a small percentage of people. I am one of those people, I am allergic to Tetanus vaccine. My children have never had any reaction but I was very nervous when my kids had their shots. There are many reasons I am so opposed to the vaccine causes autism theory is that it is based on a theory that there is heavy metal poisoning. This type of poisoning (lead and mercury) does not cause autistic like symptoms it causes severe brain damage and mental retardation.
Im also not saying that you personally over protected your child and gave him allergies. I was talking about society on a whole. My oldest son had severe asthma when he was a baby, he would turn blue and Id have to rush him to the hospital. My youngest daughter was constantly getting MRSA abscesses, one she had to have surgery for. They were giving her very high dose antibiotics every time and I finally got to the point where I would lance and drain her abscesses myself to keep her from having to be on the antibiotic. I also potty trained her to get her out of diapers by taking her to the toilet every hour....she is now pretty much potty trained even though we have to watch for signs, she sometimes asks to go. We have not had any more abscesses since.
Also I dont think that all autism is genetic. I think the regressive form of autism is more puzzling than typical autism (the type you are born with).
I believe that we need still need to look for things that is perhaps triggering the regressive autism. If you look at how many neuro toxins people use in their house on a regular basis its kind of scary.....cleaning products, air fresheners, ect.
Anyway, just wanted to clarify and Im sorry that I made you feel like I was attacking you personally. You are not the first person to be offended by the way I present things and Im sure you wont be the last. I wont say my Asperger's made me do it as I think people should be held responsible if they act like a jerk. I am sorry for the eye rolly but Im not sorry for my theories because these were not mentioned in reference to you.

Thank you. I wasn't extremely upset, just offended.

I just want to maintain a safe space to openly discuss complex issues.

I wouldn't expect you or anyone to apologize for their thoughts, just to be respectful.

Sounds like we've shared some scary times with our kids. And we all want our children to

be safe and healthy.

Peace out!