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TheHaywire
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10 Jun 2010, 4:38 am

I'm used to talking about NT's oppressing us but what about the other way around? When people say we were "asking for it" at school etc. did they mean that we were sitting around acting weird or was it possible that we said something that was unintentionally cruel? I want to entertain the possibility that people with AS were the original antagonists. (unintentionally of course) Maybe it wasn't that the NT kids thought we were "losers" but that they called us losers because they felt we were mean to them, overstepped our limits, etc. While I'm very aware of the cruelty of the pecking order and the herd mentality I'd like to think that the original attack against the person with AS (which sprung the chain of the mob mentality) was simply a defense against the speaking of the mind without reservation.

Curious how everyone views this.



auntblabby
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10 Jun 2010, 5:22 am

there's more than enough blame to go around.



Ferdinand
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10 Jun 2010, 5:39 am

Doesn't matter. No one should bully, wether or not provoked.


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Robdemanc
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10 Jun 2010, 5:43 am

I don't think it matters either. The bully will at some point realize the victim is vulnerable and then fires all guns.

I think that in the NT world they are aware of a sub group of people who do not have good social skills and so they think we are fair game. To them it is probably just a laugh, and they don't care how we feel about it. They don't deserve to be let off the hook just because its possible an Aspie insulted them unintentionaly.



musicboxforever
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10 Jun 2010, 5:47 am

That's an interesting perspective. To a certain extent it could be true, I know that often my Mother thinks that people are being mean to her, but I have recently realised that she is mean to them without realising it. It's just the way she communicates, so they respond in turn.

I see it in my sister and myself, we are both very blunt as well and say what we mean. We can often forget that what we say has an impact on the other. I told her that I didn't like the bridesmaid dress she and the other 2 bridesmaids chose. It didn't look good on me and she said that I could wear a different dress anyway, so I was blunt about why it didn't suit me. She was upset because she though I was criticising her choice in general. But I just meant it didn't suit me, I'm sure the other girls look lovely, being skinny and tall, but I basically have a big butt and it was a no go.

Misunderstandings can happen easily, but this idea that the more odd kids are "asking for it" is repugnant to me. Even if you don't get on with someone children should be taught to accept them and not bully someone because they are different. I have a couple of friends that annoy me like crazy, they were bullied at school. I think they are both aspies, but they certainly weren't asking for it. I can see their good qualities through all of the lack of social awareness that they have (probably because I understand their experiences and I appreciate it when I am accepted myself). I could pick up on their faults and point out the annoying things they do, but I let it slide. They are not asking for it. It is other people who have a problem with patience and understanding that really cause the problem.

I wonder if more coud be done in schools to educate children to be more tolerant of others. Mind you, it might not work. Teachers may already be trying this sort of education anyway. Bullies often have lots of reason for they way they behave. Perhaps they have been treated badly by their parents and don't know how to treat others with respect. I don't know what could be done to change that. There was girl that bullied me in primary 3 and looking back I think that she was mistreated by her parents. I feel sorry for her now.



TheHaywire
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10 Jun 2010, 5:53 am

I'm asking this as someone who has been bullied by NT's into suicide attempts. I was a hardcore NT basher as a result. I am seeking understanding of their behavior so when people say "don't NT bash" I can agree with them.

How do you guys define bullying? Isn't it possible that an NT felt they were the one being bullied by someone with AS and that their defense against the bullying was perceived as bullying when it was just self defense?

If I tell an NT that they are a boring follower I may not see this as bullying. I may see it as speaking my mind. The NT may see it as bullying and say something to get me to go away. I could then go home and cry about being rejected no?



ToughDiamond
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10 Jun 2010, 5:59 am

I think there's something very nasty and primordial that goes on in groups - people like to think we're all so enlightened and inclusionist these days, but I see a lot of groups who are just looking for a scapegoat or to marginalise anybody who doesn't quite fit the mould. It would be interesting to surgically remove such tendencies from a group and see what happened to it.......we frequently see cruelty in nature and we'd like to eliminate it, but who knows what vital evolutionary purpose is served by the nasty stuff? It's common in animal groups too. Would nature put it there if it were of no use?

Having said that, until I have a clear, convincing notion of what good comes of bullying and marginalising, I'm perfectly happy to fight it.



Ferdinand
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10 Jun 2010, 6:00 am

Speaking your mind and being honest, and trying to make someone go away by meaning mean are two very different things.


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TheHaywire
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10 Jun 2010, 6:01 am

How do we know if we are being cruel or not? How do we know when we are bullying people? Do Aspie's and NT's view bullying the same way?

I feel that I have become somewhat of a bully myself due to the amount of bullying I have endured. The only difference is that I bully NT's. I don't realize this when I'm doing it but looking back I realize that I do it all the time.

"Speaking your mind and being honest, and trying to make someone go away by meaning mean are two very different things."

What if to them making us go away is simply wanting to be left alone?

I'm being very careful here because I'm not seeking to victim blame and I definitely don't think anybody is "asking for it." I'm trying to gain a new perspective because I feel I have become cruel and judgmental to NT's to the point where it's like reverse racism. I am just seeing this for the first time.



Robdemanc
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10 Jun 2010, 6:09 am

TheHaywire wrote:
How do we know if we are being cruel or not? How do we know when we are bullying people? Do Aspie's and NT's view bullying the same way?

I feel that I have become somewhat of a bully myself due to the amount of bullying I have endured. The only difference is that I bully NT's. I don't realize this when I'm doing it but looking back I realize that I do it all the time.

"Speaking your mind and being honest, and trying to make someone go away by meaning mean are two very different things."

What if to them making us go away is simply wanting to be left alone?


Lets not forget that bullying is a consistant thing. It happens over time and usually gets progressively worse. I do not think anyone could ever bully someone unintentionally. It takes a certain amount of premeditation and of course the aim is always to put down the victim. Also bullies are insecure and cowardly. Bullies know exactly what they are doing and they get off on it. So ask yourself if you know what you are doing and are you getting off on it and is the behaviour consistent over time.



Ferdinand
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10 Jun 2010, 6:11 am

You would have to define what it means to bully. I believe that if you say something in an deliberate attempt to make them feel bad or to intimidate, then you are bullying. However, unintentionally saying something that offends someone is not bullying.

Losing your cool from time to time isn't bullying either, nor is getting angry if someone wont leave you alone. Choosing a target and premeditating it is, however, bullying.


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TheHaywire
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10 Jun 2010, 6:17 am

"Lets not forget that bullying is a consistant thing. It happens over time and usually gets progressively worse. I do not think anyone could ever bully someone unintentionally."

So if I tell someone that I think they're a mindless lemming and that the world would be better without people like them in it... and I genuinely feel this way... it's not bullying?

"It takes a certain amount of premeditation and of course the aim is always to put down the victim. Also bullies are insecure and cowardly. Bullies know exactly what they are doing and they get off on it. So ask yourself if you know what you are doing and are you getting off on it and is the behaviour consistent over time."

What I am doing is speaking my mind without thinking about how it effects others. I'm not sure if this qualifies as knowing what I'm doing. What I do get off on is intentionally making bullies cry. There is nothing like getting revenge against the head of a pack and its followers. Yet I don't get off on making innocent people cry. Am I like... a vengeance bully?



ToughDiamond
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10 Jun 2010, 6:21 am

I'm currently in a group in which one guy was bullying everybody else in a subtle way, until one member unilaterally threw him out - which was also a kind of bullying, I suppose, though not exactly picking on the vulnerable, more like fighting fire with fire. I doubt that either of them would see their own behaviour as bullying.

I've definitely been quite cruel to people without realising what I was doing. When I was about 9 years old, a girl dropped a pint of milk on the floor. As she cleaned up the mess, I just kept making jokes about it until she went for my throat. 8O The other kids said I shouldn't have been so nasty to her, but at the time I just thought I was being entertaining.



nara44
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10 Jun 2010, 6:31 am

TheHaywire wrote:

I'm being very careful here because I'm not seeking to victim blame and I definitely don't think anybody is "asking for it." I'm trying to gain a new perspective because I feel I have become cruel and judgmental to NT's to the point where it's like reverse racism. I am just seeing this for the first time.


And i think it's a very pragmatic, useful and sensitive perspective and the ability to see beyond the blaming game can save us from lot's of dead ends and wrong choices
I was bullied quite a lot when i was young and to this day my mere presence can drive people crazy even when i do not talk or do something but from a very early age i came to understand that many times we are just too much for an NT,too blunt, too direct, too honest,smart,good looking,strange etc..
AS identity is impossible to get for an NT and the unknown is frightening to most people and there is no using talking sense to people controlled by fear,
I heard people around me were saying to themselves "he is actually very nice person and not crazy at all" many times but the the mere fact they were saying that shows that there is nothing we can do
we are just too different,
The perspective u brought up led me to a life which involved as few NT's as possible,
Not because i hate them or traumatized but because the NT-AS situation is a disaster waiting to happened for so many reasons it is pointless to list them
We obviously experience reality very differently from the way NT's experience it/



Robdemanc
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10 Jun 2010, 6:38 am

TheHaywire wrote:
"Lets not forget that bullying is a consistant thing. It happens over time and usually gets progressively worse. I do not think anyone could ever bully someone unintentionally."

So if I tell someone that I think they're a mindless lemming and that the world would be better without people like them in it... and I genuinely feel this way... it's not bullying?

"It takes a certain amount of premeditation and of course the aim is always to put down the victim. Also bullies are insecure and cowardly. Bullies know exactly what they are doing and they get off on it. So ask yourself if you know what you are doing and are you getting off on it and is the behaviour consistent over time."

What I am doing is speaking my mind without thinking about how it effects others. I'm not sure if this qualifies as knowing what I'm doing. What I do get off on is intentionally making bullies cry. There is nothing like getting revenge against the head of a pack and its followers. Yet I don't get off on making innocent people cry. Am I like... a vengeance bully?


If you insult someone because you think what you are saying is true then i would not say it is bullying. Bullying would be if you insulted someone with the intention of making them feel lousy, whether or not you thought the comment was true. Also one isolated case would not constitute bullying.

If your intention is to highlight to the bully what they are doing then you are not bullying. Perhaps you are seeking vengence against someone you think deserves it. But ask yourself, are you doing this to them consistently? Do you have a plan to make this persons life hell. Do you carry out these insults regularly and is the intention to just put them down?



musicboxforever
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10 Jun 2010, 6:38 am

TheHaywire wrote:
"Lets not forget that bullying is a consistant thing. It happens over time and usually gets progressively worse. I do not think anyone could ever bully someone unintentionally."

So if I tell someone that I think they're a mindless lemming and that the world would be better without people like them in it... and I genuinely feel this way... it's not bullying?

"It takes a certain amount of premeditation and of course the aim is always to put down the victim. Also bullies are insecure and cowardly. Bullies know exactly what they are doing and they get off on it. So ask yourself if you know what you are doing and are you getting off on it and is the behaviour consistent over time."

What I am doing is speaking my mind without thinking about how it effects others. I'm not sure if this qualifies as knowing what I'm doing. What I do get off on is intentionally making bullies cry. There is nothing like getting revenge against the head of a pack and its followers. Yet I don't get off on making innocent people cry. Am I like... a vengeance bully?


I actually wonder if what you are doing is more a form of self defence because I am similar. I have noticed that I will tend to reject girls especially because I generally don't fit in with them and if I generalise them as all being silly and concerned with nonsense like celebrities and getting their nails done, and going along with the crowd in their tastes and ideas, then I am in a way protecting myself. I am rejecting them before they can reject me. If I belittle them, then if they don't like me it doesn't matter because I don't value their opinion anyway.