What was the worst bullying you saw in school?

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Filthy strawman. Next!



Good can exist without evil, but it lacks meaning, purpose, and appreciation. I don't think you're capable of visualizing a world with no evil whatsoever. No setbacks, no insults, no power struggles at work, no arguments... In a way, that is a dead world, with no energy going through it. No intent. Why help a grandma cross the street if you know she's in no danger?



Flew right over my head, this did.



Hurr durr, the rape of the word "triumph" continues. I... I can't watch.



Whoever I was replying to in the first place (was it you?), mentioned God a number of times. "Why doesn't God help? I hate God!" etc etc. In order to hate something you have to assume it exists. Therefore, an existence of a Higher Power was assumed in this exchange.



Lulz. See above.



How did this become about me insulting anyone or diminishing their suffering? My family is Jewish and from former Soviet Union, a country demolished by World War II. You extrapolate way too much data, with a lot of error. Don't be so quick to judge someone's entire personality spectrum based on a comment they make on an Internet forum. It makes you look like an insulting moron, and you're not gonna make friends that way.



If God does not exist, and we have free will, then we're the only ones to blame for evil in the world. Yet you (or whoever I was replying to) blamed God, so I addressed it from that perspective.

Either way, I have no idea what you want to accomplish here by raging pointlessly. You can't escape this life. If you're feeling suicidal, and this is your way of expressing it, I recommend calling a suicide hotline.

P.S. I'm sorry if you somehow got the impression that I'm a moral relativist. I f*****g hate moral relativists.

monsterland wrote

So I guess you think every evil is a necessary one eh?

Please explain the "necessity" of the holocaust. Please explain the "necessity" of three of billion people living on two dollars a day or less. Please explain the "necessity" of smallpox and malaria. Please explain the "necessity" of schizophrenia. Please explain
explain the "necessity" of global environmental degradation.

Shall I go on all night about you and your "necessary" evils?







Gee....I forgot that what you consider meaningful, purposeful and appreciable qualifies as absolute truth


So purpose can only be found in constant and eternal struggle, strife, overcoming
and triumph?

Hitler may have believed that....but I hope you don't.

Yes....everybody loves a good setback, insult, power struggle and argument.

That's probably why billions of people do everything in their power to avoid all of these things. 2nd

A "dead world"?...with no "energy" going through it?

What on earth are you even talking about?

Look...what you're saying here is true in a sense. Suffering, pain and evil"...if you will...IS part and parcel of existence itself.

So you're not telling me or anyone else anything here we don't already know.

But it seems to me that you're implying that we shouldn't wish to rid existence of suffering, pain and evil were it possible to do so.

Why not? Would the rainforest be any less beautiful and valuable if it wasn't a hostile environment to both humans and many other lifeforms that dwell within it?

Would music lose it's all worth and beauty without suffering, pain and evil?

Would art? Would knowledge? Would romantic love? If this is so....then why do people such as yourself constantly hanker after that idealized and mythical place/state of being known as heaven? I suggest you read "As it is to be" by Cora Lynn Daniels if you can find a copy of that obscure little book.

How about happiness, pleasure, equality, justice, wonder, joy and love as the ONLY intents?


Would that be such an awful thing?




Maybe this won't


"Do you know what your "heroes", your "martyrs", and your "men of character" are?
Creatures of vanity, nothing more".

Julius Evola

Let it be noted that I hold no brief for Evola....he was a fascist swine.

Nonetheless...credit where credit is due.




The word deserves to be raped IMO....it has no meaning insofar as what it proves about an individual aside from the fact that they possess certain qualities they did nothing to aquire. Those who CAN triumph, DO triumph...simple as that. Should Einstein be considered "triumphant" because his brain was optimally-wired to understand physics and math?





In other words....you HAVE no empirical evidence to support your beliefs about the existence of this "home planet" you mentioned. Quite an efficacious escape hatch you've designed here.





Because that's precisely what you do, albeit without ill-intent i'm sure, when you make such preposterous statements. Dachau and Auscwitz WERE torturous prisons any way you wish to slice it. They were not some tough love schools-of-hard-knocks divinely-ordained by the otherwordly utilitarians on your "home planet". I'm quite sure those who were even lucky enough to survive the death camps could've done without the "education" provided in those estimable institutions. Part of my family is Jewish as well, from that storied city of Vilnius. Few, if any, who didn't emigrate to America prior to the nazi occupation of the city survived. I'm sorry if I get offended when transcendentalists (or those who might as well be) downplay human suffering and misery by suggesting it's all some sort of critical learning experience. Actually i'm not sorry....because it IS offensive IMO and it usually emnates from individuals who haven't tasted too much suffering in their lives. How dare you even IMPLY that a woman who was brutally sodomized by three men should view the experience as some sort of lesson. A lesson in human cruelty and perversion perhaps....but little else.

I'm not interested in making friends....I write what I please irrespective of who likes it and who does not. My own sorrows in this life have nothing to do with the fact that I have few friends. I am grateful to have as few as I do and I would be equally happy to have none. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. Not everyone in the world DESIRES friendships and considering the group you're in....you ought to realize that much.

So sorry some of us are unable to view this life as some sort of crucial educational experience rather than a torturous prison.

Permit me to apologize for all the benighted suffering souls who do not possess your undefiled wisdom about the value of misery and the ultimate meaning of life.

But don't be too offended if a few of them tell you, the pope, the Dalai Lama and L. Ron Hubbard to shove your "undefiled wisdom" where the sun doesn't shine.

If you haven't noticed....many people in this world have become tired of this smug, egotistical, age-old and scientifically/logically unfounded rhetoric about the "purpose" of suffering and the meaning of life.





I did not "blame god"....now you're putting words in my mouth. I don't believe god exists. All I was trying to say is that I would see no reason NOT to blame him if *he* did exist. And the evidence for the existence of this ghost in the machine we call "free will" is about as good as the evidence for the existence of god. If that makes me a moron than so was Einstein and countless other scientists, philosophers, psychologists, etc....who have clearly identified themselves as determinists.






Why do I need to be "accomplishing" anything here? I am not allowed to merely state my views about any given thing? I could've escaped this life if the rest of you didn't view the human species as such valuable addition to the universe and stopped procreating a long time ago. I am not feeling suicidal and there's nothing I can do about that either. Suicide, like everything else, depends upon certain neurobiological characterisitics which override the self-preservation instinct. Obviously I don't have the right neurobiological characteristics which would compel me to commit suicide.






I didn't get that impression at all. I'm the moral relativist here and i'm totally indifferent to anyone's hate or love.

Well sir, it's difficult to argue with your continuous flood of strawmen. Your posts are time-consuming to process due to their sheer unreadability. Quantity does not make quality, and I've had my quota of shuffling through your words to find something that actually addresses something that I actually said, without you either veering off into preposterous tangents, lashing out, demanding I show you God, or accusing me of being Mussolini.

I'll address this part, though:

This directly contradicts what I said about "overcoming". We should always fight evil. This fight is part of the existence.



Darwinism/evolutionary process is pretty brutal too. Without it, your forest would still be a collection of primitive protein molecules. Something to consider.



Beethoven was blind. Many writers/artists were suffering individuals, which contributed to quality of their work. Again, something to consider.

monsterland wrote

Then don't read them....i'm afraid I can't help the way I write and if you
find them unreadable, the solution should be obvious. I did not demand
you to show me anything. All I asked you to do is to produce some evidence
for a particular claim you made. What was I supposed to do? If I told you that
the moon is made of green cheese, wouldn't you ask me for some evidence
to back up such a claim?

Is the claim you made somehow more believable? I did not accuse you
of being Mussolini either. All said is that I believe it's insulting when you
tell people who've endured terrible suffering that their suffering had some
sort of value. Some forms of suffering do....that much i'll concede.

But you act as though ALL clouds have a silver lining and i'm sorry if I
can't abide by that. I happen to think it's sentimental nonsense and yes,
quite insulting to those who've lived under some of the darkest clouds
which never yielded any "silver linings".




Perhaps it does....i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. What exactly did
you mean by the value of overcoming and triumph then? If I misunderstood
you, then my apologies. It seemed to me that you were implying that those
who do overcome and triumph over adversity are somehow better and MORE
DESERVING people than those who do not. We all realize this fight is part of
existence....nobody in their right mind would dispute that.





I realize that and you missed my point regardless of who's fault it was.
What I was trying to say is that were it POSSIBLE to be rid life of the
brutal Darwinian/evolutionary process while still preserving the rainforest
(and everything else) there would be no reason not to IMO.


I'm aware of the fact that it's a means to an end....a necessary evil if you will.


Obviously it is not possible to rid existence of all evil and suffering.


But we should not be lulled into complacency and acceptance of ALL OF IT
by arguments which suggest ALL OF IT has both value and is impossible
to do away with. We ought to be able to seperate the whey from the chaff
here.


If you can agree with that much...then we're on the same page.





And plenty were not suffering individuals. I think it's up to the individual
to determine if the suffering which contributed to their work was worth it.

Perhaps Beethoven would've preffered sight to musical talent...who knows?

Far be from me to blame him if he would have.

Correction: Beethoven went deaf. He was completely deaf when he composed the ninth symphony.

I was spat at in 6th grade, I was taken advantage of and I get in trouble, I was egged on to do things and I get in trouble, kids liked to get me provoked to get me into trouble, my own best friends didn't stand up for me.

Ack.....I knew something was wrong with that picture.


I was too caught up in multi-tasking to put much thought into it though.

eh - it was off topic and i almost apologized for interjecting. i just couldn't help myself.

I just wanted to butt in and say that I agree with this (above). I wasn't actually participating in this thread, but I started reading these posts because I couldn't figure out how they related back to the bullying topic. It's hard to actually think about what your posts are saying (Horus) with the condescending overtone of them. You already said you didn't care, but anyways.

Back to bullying...I was never bullied, and I never really saw a lot of bullying. But, I didn't go to school until 9th grade.

How was I bullied?

Grade school: called names, someone threw my backpack in the garbage, girls would confront me in the restrooms and say really nasty things. On the playground, they'd come up to me and act like they were trying to start a normal conversation with me, but the tones in their voices (I could tell) indicated that they were leading up to more rotten remarks. I had no idea how to make any comebacks, so I didn't say anything in return, which only made it worse.

I developed breasts early and had to wear training bras by fourth or fifth grade. During gym class, one girl snapped the strap and loudly said "You're wearing a BRA?!" My mother called her dad (a respected doctor in the town) and told him in no uncertain terms what kind of a daughter he and his wife were raising. They divorced shortly thereafter. I found her sobbing in the restroom once--she was not happy that I heard her in there. She disappeared after fifth grade and resurfaced in the tenth, loudly complaining to anyone who would listen how rotten her life was and that she hated her parents.

In fifth grade, one girl loudly accused me of stealing her retainer (gross) and got a bunch of her friends to corroborate this false accusation. I kept trying to say I didn't do it, but they just kept repeating it over and over, calling me a thief and a liar. I have no idea where they came up with that one. Ironically, she used to act like she was my friend, as long as I shared my desserts with her at lunchtime (I eventually grew tired of this--it was completely one-sided). That incident did reduce me to tears. However, they did all get in trouble for it (finally).

I walked around with a feeling of dread in the pit of my stomach all the time. I just wanted to be left alone. Being ignored would have been welcome. I missed a lot of school days as a result of being physically ill most mornings.

Some of the teachers were no better. My mom had to change classrooms for me in fourth grade because the teacher saw the bullying openly occurring in the classroom and not only tolerated it, but seemed to encourage it.

And then--also in fourth grade, there was this weekly reading group called "Junior Great Books." One of the other student's mothers led it and she was horrible to me--openly belittling me in front of everyone because I didn't want to talk. (My first-grade teacher did the same thing, btw, making me cry more than once. However, most of the parents hated her too--eventually, she was asked to resign. I think her husband divorced her shortly afterwards.)

Sixth grade--in my Humanities (English/History) class, we had to discuss the daily journal entries in small groups. I took longer than most people to compose my responses--I saw no point in doing them if they weren't thorough. The two girls I originally had to work with didn't like that I took longer than they did and that I refused to say a word until I was ready. Their response was to call me to "Mediation" (exactly what it sounded like--my middle school's concept of dispute resolution); my response was to tell my Humanities teacher that I'd had enough. His response was to switch me to another group (which should have been done in the first place ) with a few people I got along with at the time. They were patient enough to let me finish (and usually took a bit longer themselves). My art teacher in the same year was a total b***ch--I had never been good at visual arts in the first place, and she nitpicked every assignment that wasn't done exactly "her way." My Humanities teacher actually had a long talk with her (he was one of the nicest teachers I've ever had, past or present) and she left me alone after that.

This was also the year I thought this one girl was actually my friend. She turned out to be totally two-faced. I responded by refusing to say a word to her after the fight that "broke us up"--every time she tried to say anything to me, I pretended I was deaf or that she did not exist. One year later she apologized.

Seventh grade--art class again, some kid threw an ink bottle at me. He was a jerk to everyone, though.

Ninth grade--I was assigned to an English project group with some girls who had been jerks to me in grade school. For a while, they seemed to be acting nice, and I foolishly fell for it. In the final product, none of my contributions were even present. They tried to make it all "okay" by saying I would get credit anyway, but I didn't care--I was royally P.O.'d at having my ideas disregarded. That was the final straw--my mom got me out of that (supposedly Honors) class and into a "regular" one where we actually learned stuff (including grammar--what a concept). The previous teacher ("Honors") would let kids cut other classes, hide out in her classroom and smoke pot. Really. She also had the nerve to say to my mom that "her job was to make [me] more independent." WTF?!? My mom said "I thought your job was to teach English." I think she was eventually let go, too.

In my senior year, I had to switch English classes yet again--I had a horrible teacher who criticized the way I had been writing for years and always gotten A's from; he gave me C's or worse. I started to be too afraid to write anything until I changed classes, and writing had always been one of my strongest points. I returned a year and a half after graduation to get transcripts and found out he had died recently.

Yep, karma can be a funny thing.