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twinplets
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22 Jun 2010, 8:43 am

Just going from your decription of the apartment, this is something he is going to have to work on. It won't matter while the baby is small, but once it becomes mobile, this doesn't sound like a safe place for a baby to crawl and toddle around.



jdenault
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22 Jun 2010, 9:21 am

True. This is scary. Unlike the old square play pen that just sat there and had a bottom, there are pens, that can be enlarged or decreased in size but if the baby is anything like his AS father, he will figure out how to escape as soon as he can crawl. His father loathed any form of confinement.



willaful
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22 Jun 2010, 11:19 am

jdenault wrote:
I also associate objects with people and feel regret when one of these objects break so I can see how you feel. I think the difference between NT me and my AS son is that my dislike of clutter eventually convinces me that the pleasant association isn't worth tripping over something that no longer functions.


I just read the book Stuff -- a fantastic book, highly recommend it -- and I think from that that this trait is common to most hoarders. Although there were one or two people mentioned in the book that might have autism, I think most would be described as NT, except for having this serious psychological, possibly neurological issue which in a sense is not NT at all.

My son isn't very acquisitive for a child -- except for attacks of wanting things *other* people have, a form of envy that has very little to do with the actual objects, which he loses all interest in when he actually gets. He seems to have no understanding of the concept of "Sentimental attachment" at all -- either he's interested in something or he's not, and when he's not, he's fine with me getting rid of it. It's complicated for me because sometimes the interest comes back, so I've learned to be careful about what I get rid of. But even then, it's like a new toy for him - for example, he recently got back into wanting to play with stuffed animals, but with very little memory of every having played with them before, the fact that they had had names, etc. It worries me a bit.

I asked him about this the other day, mentioning that his dad and I like to keep certain things because they bring back memories and he said something like "I don't need memories." The sad thing is, I think he *does*. He has the same problem I do of mostly concentrating on bad ones.


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jdenault
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22 Jun 2010, 1:13 pm

I'll look for STUFF. I was interested that your son wants things "other" people have that would otherwise lack interest for him. Is he related to the "other' people? My AS son coveted everything his younger brother had--even the stuffed toys his brother had when the brother was very young. This compulsion was so strong, I got in the habit of checking the AS son's room and gathering the baby toys stuffed under the pillow, under the quilt and under the bed. I couldn't figure out why he was baffled that I always knew where he had stashed them. I guess that was his inability to understand my thought processes. I hadn't thought about that for years. Since he was only identified as being an Aspie when he was in his forties, I'm constantly discovering the reasons this clearly intelligent boy so often "didn't get it."



willaful
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27 Jun 2010, 2:50 am

jdenault wrote:
I'll look for STUFF. I was interested that your son wants things "other" people have that would otherwise lack interest for him. Is he related to the "other' people? My AS son coveted everything his younger brother had--even the stuffed toys his brother had when the brother was very young. This compulsion was so strong, I got in the habit of checking the AS son's room and gathering the baby toys stuffed under the pillow, under the quilt and under the bed. I couldn't figure out why he was baffled that I always knew where he had stashed them. I guess that was his inability to understand my thought processes. I hadn't thought about that for years. Since he was only identified as being an Aspie when he was in his forties, I'm constantly discovering the reasons this clearly intelligent boy so often "didn't get it."


I hadn't thought about it before, but now that you mention it, I've seen it mostly with his "cousins" (our godchildren), come to think of it, and with his friends/classmates. Sometimes he'll get upset because a strange kid has something and he doesn't -- usually a sweet, but in that instance, it is something he really wants, because he passionately loves sweets. But many times he'll be upset about not having something, the other kid will give it to him, and then he loses all interest in it.

I think it may possibly be an expression of envy for other kids seeming to have an easier time in the world. He went through a phase of wanting to be a girl and I seriously thought he might be transgendered, but my husband thought he was just expressing a feeling that girls are better at being friendly and have easier times getting along, and time seems to have proven him right.


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jdenault
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27 Jun 2010, 8:47 am

My AS son constantly wanted his little brother's baby toys, even his stuffed animals. Even when he had his own baby toys, he had little interest in them unless he could make them do something. And that interest disappeared when he figured out how they worked. But he kept even the disemboweled stuff. He still does. If asked why his garage is full of broken items and usable items he has never used, he looks harassed and says he might need it sometime.



Kiseki
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27 Jun 2010, 10:53 am

My mother and I both do this. We have a habit of holding onto things, not really hoarding, but having way too much useless junk. For me it is for 2 reasons 1) sentimental 2) maybe needing it in the future. I blame my mom for this trait ;) When I was a kid she used to take me to this place called The Chocolate Factory which was basically a warehouse of scraps of material and odds and ends from factories (!) Kids were meant to buy this stuff and be creative with it. I loved the place. I mean, imagine having 100 different carpet samples to paw through? Hahaha. Such an Aspie place that was.



jdenault
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27 Jun 2010, 11:41 am

I think hoarding must be common in differing degrees. My son in law admits he is a hoarder to a degree. But he can usually give you reasonable reasons for each item, has asked me to help him sort through his stuff and doesn't come apart at the seams if I suggest we pitch something and can give him a valid reason for doing it.

I can imagine my son in the sea of possible hoarder treasures you described. He would be frantically looking for larger and larger bags and boxes to hold all the goodies he "needed."



Dox47
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28 Jun 2010, 9:32 pm

I also tend to "collect", but I associate that as much with being very mechanical as being AS; where other people see junk I see parts and possibilities and that makes it hard to just toss things. My father and stepfather were similar, my AS runs through my maternal side and neither of the two men were much like me except for being mechanical and creative, and both accumulated huge stocks of "stuff" throughout their lives on the off chance they could use the parts for something.

That being said, what I do identify with from the OP is the anxiety encountered when other people move my stuff around or otherwise invade my space, it's really a very strong reaction for me and is almost physically distressing. I've noticed that the reaction really depends on the particulars, I have no problem with friends browsing my books or most people being in my house, but I have a real problem when my girlfriend starts using my computer or my mom starts "tidying" around my house when she stops by, both feel much more invasive to me. I think this trait lead to me being labeled "selfish" as a child because I didn't like other people using my things, not out of any intrinsic greed but because it actually made me uncomfortable. Once I got diagnosed (at 25) a lot of things from my history started falling into place, this sort of thing being one of them.


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jdenault
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29 Jun 2010, 5:46 am

That's much like my AS son. He gets anxious and hovers behind you if you just take a book off one of his shelves and put it back in a different place yet he's thrilled and-will give you the book or find you another copy if you show any interest in it, then ask you if you've read it virtually every time you see him. If you did read it and say you didn't particularly like it, he brings you similar ones and tries to convince you that you will like the style or particular author if you just give him a chance. I suppose liking what he has read is a sort of affirmation. He was in his forties before he knew he had AS--that was a long time to feel your thought processes are wierd.



flyingrhubarb
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30 Jun 2010, 3:29 pm

My AS son hoards, my AS daughter doesn't. My maybe AS husband does it too. My son has always had huge difficulty parting with outgrown toys, clothes, household items .... the most dramatic and awkward being the washing machine when it broke... he formed a deep emotional attachment to objects.... I understood how he felt, so let him keep stuff where practicable. What worked for us was putting stuff away in a transitional space, in our case the loft, where it could fade from his memory. Then he was able to forget it, and it could be disposed of. With him it's actually not so much that he wants the objects, as that the change is very hard for him. With my husband it's more that his sense of self is invested in the objects.

Have they got a loft? They need to do something I think, for their sake and the baby's. Not such a problem whilst baby is immobile, but when he starts crawling and then toddling a house deep in clutter is not good.



jdenault
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02 Jul 2010, 12:49 pm

Unfortunately, they are living in a two bedroom apartment. They understand they will have to move at some point but in true Aspergian fashion, the idea of moving creates such anxiety they shelve it. Which they can do--the baby will be a month old next Wednesday--but if he's anything like his father getting him into baby-safe surroundings isn't too far away.



Mama_to_Grace
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02 Jul 2010, 3:15 pm

My AS brother is the opposite-he throws away things very soon after acquiring them. Even sofas or furniture or even houses-he moves often. I think this is OCD, he feels like once something is used it's dirty and contaminated. I (NT) on the other hand, hoard things. I find it difficult to throw away butter bowls after the butter is used or anything that's plastic. I (embarrassingly) have cabinets and drawers of stuff that I will probably never use. I also find it hard to let go of furniture, even after it's old and I need something new to replace it. Practically everything in my house is "old" even the house itself is 90 years old. :lol: I think my hoarding is due to being very poor while growing up-I always feel just around the corner I'll need these things and won't be able to afford anything.

My AS daughter has difficulty throwing things away or giving them away. She will not let go of board books she hasn't read since she was 3. But she doesn't WANT things. When given a gift card for her birthday she'll covet the card and refuse to spend the $$. I guess she's just a saver like me. :lol:



jdenault
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02 Jul 2010, 3:57 pm

It's hard to sort through triggers. I'm sure being poor as a child or even perceiving that you were poor because you were denied objects or a lifestyle you coveted could make you cling to things that make you feel good. You got me thinking. I imagine an OCD person's obsession could be the need to make reparation for some perceived vacuum in their earlier life. They could be aspies or not. I guess you can't describe them as NTs. Maybe someone should invent a term that clumps a bunch of neuro-diversities--maybe the term already exists--I just have never run across it.



willaful
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02 Jul 2010, 5:49 pm

The research mentioned in the book Stuff showed that hoarding often seems to be a form of impulse control disorder, rather than OCD. And it's found just as much amongst people who never suffered deprivation as amongst those that have.

Really an amazing book. My husband has been cleaning out nonstop since he read it. :lol:


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jdenault
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03 Jul 2010, 8:35 am

STUFF has been mentioned so frequently, I just ordered it. I'll read it then suggest my son and his (probably Aspie) wife read it since they have asked for help getting their apartment in order. You mentioned your husband is busily pitching stuff after reading it. Is he also an Aspie?