Israeli human rights group releases report...

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i_wanna_blue
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07 Jul 2010, 6:18 am

about illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Just shows that this notion that all Jews and Muslims are mortal enemies is not universal or absolute, like most people believe and it shows how true patriots detest Israeli policy towards Palestinians.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/201007_By_Hook_and_by_Crook.asp

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Establishment of the settlements violates international humanitarian law. Israel has ignored the relevant rules of law, adopting its own interpretation, which is not accepted by almost all leading jurists around the world and by the international community.
The settlement enterprise has caused continuing, cumulative infringement of the Palestinians’ human rights, as follows:

* the right of property, by seizing control of extensive stretches of West Bank land in favor of the settlements;
* the right to equality and due process, by establishing separate legal systems, in which the person’s rights are based on his national origin, the settlers being subject to Israel’s legal system, which is based on human rights and democratic values, while the Palestinians are subject to the military legal system, which systematically deprives them of their rights;
* the right to an adequate standard of living, since the settlements were intentionally established in a way that prevents urban development of Palestinian communities, and Israel’s control of the water sources prevents the development of Palestinian agriculture;
* the right to freedom of movement, by means of the checkpoints and other obstructions on Palestinian movement in the West Bank, which are intended to protect the settlements and the settler’s traffic arteries;
* the right to self-determination, by severing Palestinian territorial contiguity and creating dozens of enclaves that prevent the establishment of an independent and viable Palestinian state.



Last edited by i_wanna_blue on 07 Jul 2010, 8:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

nara44
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07 Jul 2010, 8:18 am

i_wanna_blue wrote:
about illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Just shows that this notion that all Jews and Muslims are mortal enemies is not universal or absolute, like most people believe and it shows how true patriots detest Israeli policy towards Palestinians.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/201007_By_Hook_and_by_Crook.asp



At least most of the people i know in Israel,both Jews and Arabs,doesn't believe that Jews and Muslims are mortal enemies and doesn't act according to this misguided belief.

BTW
a very touching and a bit less one dimensional take on how crazy and strange life can be in the ME can be seen on this movie
Precious Life
I spent some time at this hospital last year and there is heart warming level of coexistence there

this is not to say that there isn't many more wrongs to be dealt with but just to show that most common ppl in this area can still act human despite everything
children at tel hashomer



Last edited by nara44 on 07 Jul 2010, 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

i_wanna_blue
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07 Jul 2010, 8:30 am

nara44 wrote:
At least most of the people i know in Israel,both Jews and Arabs,doesn't believe that Jews and Muslims are mortal enemies and doesn't act according to this misguided belief.


That's very good to know, but due to the nonsense people, especially in America, hear from the news media these type of hate cycles are further enforced and ratified. I have found certain Jews and Israelis to be more sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians.

This is a very good movie about how the American news media follows the events in the middle east.

Peace, Propoganda & The Promised Land



Shadwell
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07 Jul 2010, 8:43 am

If your against Israeli policy it does not mean you are anti-Semitic or a traitor if you are Jewish. In fact both arabs and jews both speak languages that are Semitic. A proper lesson from the Holocaust means never again for everybody.



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07 Jul 2010, 8:51 am

i_wanna_blue wrote:
nara44 wrote:
At least most of the people i know in Israel,both Jews and Arabs,doesn't believe that Jews and Muslims are mortal enemies and doesn't act according to this misguided belief.


That's very good to know, but due to the nonsense people, especially in America, hear from the news media these type of hate cycles are further enforced and ratified. I have found certain Jews and Israelis to be more sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians.



Conflicts are interesting
Coexistence is dull and uneventful
At least it is so to the shallow minded people who runs the media and the politicians who get elected to solve the problems they create in the first place because they can't think and do the necessary long term projects and goals,
I think many AS knows all too well that most NT doesn't react well to long term state of mind,
only geeks thinks and feels
our society loves the "heroes" who's only talent is to bully and kill



nara44
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07 Jul 2010, 8:58 am

Shadwell wrote:
If your against Israeli policy it does not mean you are anti-Semitic or a traitor if you are Jewish. In fact both arabs and jews both speak languages that are Semitic. A proper lesson from the Holocaust means never again for everybody.


That's right but when u single out Israel as the worst country in the world or question it right to exist like too many people are doing that's mean u r an anti-Semitic.
The fact that both Jews and Arabs are Semite is beside the point because Antisemitism is an historical and cultural term that doesn't necessary relate to the semitic roots of the Jews,
Jews were persecuted not because they were Semite but for many other reasons.



Shadwell
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07 Jul 2010, 11:23 am

People are people



i_wanna_blue
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07 Jul 2010, 11:47 am

nara44 wrote:
Shadwell wrote:
If your against Israeli policy it does not mean you are anti-Semitic or a traitor if you are Jewish. In fact both arabs and jews both speak languages that are Semitic. A proper lesson from the Holocaust means never again for everybody.


That's right but when u single out Israel as the worst country in the world or question it right to exist like too many people are doing that's mean u r an anti-Semitic.


I'm sorry Nara but I have to disagree with you there. Israel is a state of force. One formed by booting the occupiers unlawfully out. No referendum was taken in the 1940's and it's obvious that the IDF use excessive force towards the Palestinians in fear that if they don't the Palestinians will want to take back what was illegally taken from them. That's why so many people oppose Israel. It does not make you anti Semitic to have that view. If Israel existence was based on legal and fair terms, no one would argue against it.

You see Israel is the only country in the world that in order to exist needs to oppress the people who previously existed on it. No other geographic or political country in the world exists that way.

There are many practicing Orthodox Jews who oppose the state of Israel and the current ways of the IDF. Surely they can't be anti Semitic too.

Quote:
Conflicts are interesting
Coexistence is dull and uneventful
At least it is so to the shallow minded people who runs the media and the politicians who get elected to solve the problems they create in the first place because they can't think and do the necessary long term projects and goals,


That I must say is 100% correct.



Last edited by i_wanna_blue on 07 Jul 2010, 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheBear
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07 Jul 2010, 12:02 pm

Israel was founded by people taking back their country. Archaeology, a science, and carbon dating (an application of chemistry) puts Jews in the modern-day State of Israel long before Arabs lived there. What is happening now is but a continuation of a conflict between peoples that has gone on for 3,000 years.

Israeli soldiers have committed war crimes; the Israeli military legal system punishes them accordingly (e.g., a Givati Brigade soldier currently being court-martialed for two counts of manslaughter in the deaths of two Palestinian civilians during Cast Lead). You will find that neither Hamas nor Hezbollah care about whether or not they kill Israeli civilians (in fact, they celebrate it and strive for it), let alone their own civilians, whom they use as human shields by placing legitimate military targets in close proximity to civilians.

War is unfortunate, but it happens. Fact of the matter is, Israel is here to stay, and while the Israelis will eventually make territorial concessions to the Palestinians, there will be a time when Israel will draw a line in the sand and give no more. At that point, there will be an actual war, not just a few rockets being launched and some soldiers being sent into Gaza only to be withdrawn a few weeks later...and the only result will be more dead Palestinians and more dead Israelis, a lose-lose for both sides.



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07 Jul 2010, 12:11 pm

TheBear wrote:
Israel was founded by people taking back their country. Archaeology, a science, and carbon dating (an application of chemistry) puts Jews in the modern-day State of Israel long before Arabs lived there. What is happening now is but a continuation of a conflict between peoples that has gone on for 3,000 years.

Israeli soldiers have committed war crimes; the Israeli military legal system punishes them accordingly (e.g., a Givati Brigade soldier currently being court-martialed for two counts of manslaughter in the deaths of two Palestinian civilians during Cast Lead). You will find that neither Hamas nor Hezbollah care about whether or not they kill Israeli civilians (in fact, they celebrate it and strive for it), let alone their own civilians, whom they use as human shields by placing legitimate military targets in close proximity to civilians.

War is unfortunate, but it happens. Fact of the matter is, Israel is here to stay, and while the Israelis will eventually make territorial concessions to the Palestinians, there will be a time when Israel will draw a line in the sand and give no more. At that point, there will be an actual war, not just a few rockets being launched and some soldiers being sent into Gaza only to be withdrawn a few weeks later...and the only result will be more dead Palestinians and more dead Israelis, a lose-lose for both sides.


That's been contested by Shlomo Sands in his book 'The Invention of the Jewish People,' which is actually a bestseller in Israel. Using archeological records Sands points out that Judaism used to be a proselytizing religion and that today's Jews are converts from other lands whereas the Palestinians were the original Jews who were later converted to Islam. That's not to say that Jews aren't Jews, just that Zionism is a crock.



i_wanna_blue
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07 Jul 2010, 12:23 pm

TheBear wrote:
Israel was founded by people taking back their country. Archaeology, a science, and carbon dating (an application of chemistry) puts Jews in the modern-day State of Israel long before Arabs lived there. What is happening now is but a continuation of a conflict between peoples that has gone on for 3,000 years.

Israeli soldiers have committed war crimes; the Israeli military legal system punishes them accordingly (e.g., a Givati Brigade soldier currently being court-martialed for two counts of manslaughter in the deaths of two Palestinian civilians during Cast Lead). You will find that neither Hamas nor Hezbollah care about whether or not they kill Israeli civilians (in fact, they celebrate it and strive for it), let alone their own civilians, whom they use as human shields by placing legitimate military targets in close proximity to civilians.

War is unfortunate, but it happens. Fact of the matter is, Israel is here to stay, and while the Israelis will eventually make territorial concessions to the Palestinians, there will be a time when Israel will draw a line in the sand and give no more. At that point, there will be an actual war, not just a few rockets being launched and some soldiers being sent into Gaza only to be withdrawn a few weeks later...and the only result will be more dead Palestinians and more dead Israelis, a lose-lose for both sides.


So why don't the indigenous Native Americans take an army and systematically kill off all modern day Americans and use carbon dating as their reason for the land being theirs? After all if you use that logic it would be 100% fair, wouldn't it? And why don't the Aboriginis kill all modern day Australians and put them into a little confined area and use the fact that they inhabited the land long before white folks knew how to construct a boat, as their legitimizing factor?
In essence isn't that what has happened here. Just for a second think if this did happen...
If there were enough Native Americans to launch an assault on the US...

What's the best way for the Native Americans to control and stop modern day Americans from taking back the US? To oppress them, to cage them. "So I take your land. And to make sure you don't take it back, I use force."

In fact I would like to see how the US would approve of the Native Americans taking over their land by using the logic you have just shown. Do you honestly believe modern day US citizens would just say : "yeah take it back, it's yours"? If they fight no doubt they would argue that they have the right to. But when the Palestinians do, they are not freedom fighters. Instead terrorists.



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07 Jul 2010, 12:49 pm

The difference is that the Native Americans haven't tried to take their land back (and yes, it is their land...I paid attention in US History in HS too).

As for the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter: a freedom fighter's primary target is military in nature, while a terrorist's primary target is civilian in nature. If Hamas and Hezbollah strictly limited themselves to targeting Israeli military assets and were genuinely remorseful when they killed civilians, then I wouldn't call them terrorists.

@Shadwell: That's an interesting hypothesis...I'll keep any eye out for it from now on when I'm in a bookstore. Thank you.



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07 Jul 2010, 12:54 pm

As a Jew and as a Zionist, I steadfastly maintain that the policy of the Israeli government towards settlement in the West Bank is wrongheaded. No amount of Israeli encroachment is going to be recognized as establishing a valid territorial claim, which means that when a two state solution is finally established, those settlements are going to have to be handed to the Palestinian state's control.

The cynic in me believes that Israel is well aware of this, and will be looking for compensation for the infrastructure that will be transferred intact to the Palestinians.


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07 Jul 2010, 1:23 pm

visagrunt wrote:
As a Jew and as a Zionist, I steadfastly maintain that the policy of the Israeli government towards settlement in the West Bank is wrongheaded. No amount of Israeli encroachment is going to be recognized as establishing a valid territorial claim, which means that when a two state solution is finally established, those settlements are going to have to be handed to the Palestinian state's control.

The cynic in me believes that Israel is well aware of this, and will be looking for compensation for the infrastructure that will be transferred intact to the Palestinians.


That is a good first step, and one that the whole world agrees on. The issue of the right of return from the initial Nabka needs to be addressed or some kind of symbolic and or monetary compensation in place of it. Maybe, there can eventually be a one state solution. The reason why Israel covets the West Bank so terribly are those valuable water resources. Some of these issues might be smoothed out by a one state solution provided resources are allocated equitably.



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07 Jul 2010, 2:51 pm

i_wanna_blue wrote:
I'm sorry Nara but I have to disagree with you there. Israel is a state of force. One formed by booting the occupiers unlawfully out. No referendum was taken in the 1940's and it's obvious that the IDF use excessive force towards the Palestinians in fear that if they don't the Palestinians will want to take back what was illegally taken from them. That's why so many people oppose Israel. It does not make you anti Semitic to have that view. If Israel existence was based on legal and fair terms, no one would argue against it.

You see Israel is the only country in the world that in order to exist needs to oppress the people who previously existed on it. No other geographic or political country in the world exists that way.

There are many practicing Orthodox Jews who oppose the state of Israel and the current ways of the IDF. Surely they can't be anti Semitic too.
.


Most of not all countries in the world have used force and oppressed the natives at some stage ,denying Israel right to exist because it is currently the only one still fighting for it life or borders is antisemitism especially since Jews maintained a continuous presence and strong cultural and religious linked to this land, a claim no other country in the world can equal,and the state was legaly created with the backing of the international community and the UN .
The USA have a less right to exist than Israel and is a much worse bully than Israel as is so many of other nations that no one seems to questions their existence because too many people in the world are antisemitic like you but could not admit it so they hang on to seemingly liberal views that in some strange way applies only to the Jewish state.


The Orthodox Jews oppose the state of Israel because the believe we need to wait for the Messiah to come and create the state for us,
Morally, this people are even worse than you as they are backwards fundamentalists but i guess u would be happy to support the like of the Taliban and all kaida as long they are conformed to your bigotry ,
besides,your logic is so flawed it doesn't merit a serious answer(i'll let u search your self as to why it is so)

Zand theories on the origins of the Jews and Pals were proved to be wrong so many times by so many means that only racist hate groups are stupid enough to quote him on this matter now days
hope u r not belong to any of them but looking at the qualities your arguments i will not be surprised if u do/



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07 Jul 2010, 3:06 pm

Shadwell wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
As a Jew and as a Zionist, I steadfastly maintain that the policy of the Israeli government towards settlement in the West Bank is wrongheaded. No amount of Israeli encroachment is going to be recognized as establishing a valid territorial claim, which means that when a two state solution is finally established, those settlements are going to have to be handed to the Palestinian state's control.

The cynic in me believes that Israel is well aware of this, and will be looking for compensation for the infrastructure that will be transferred intact to the Palestinians.


That is a good first step, and one that the whole world agrees on. The issue of the right of return from the initial Nabka needs to be addressed or some kind of symbolic and or monetary compensation in place of it. Maybe, there can eventually be a one state solution. The reason why Israel covets the West Bank so terribly are those valuable water resources. Some of these issues might be smoothed out by a one state solution provided resources are allocated equitably.


Israel governments claims it believe in a 2 state solution many time in the past and made some attempts at negotiations it implementation though Israeli politicians are made from the same crappy material all the politicians in the world are made from and it will probably take a lot more suffering and deaths before they and the pals leaders would move their fat asses.

The water resources problems in this region will be solved by desalinations,
In about 3 years few local major desalinations plant would kick into actions and most of the shortage problems would be solved
more plants could be erected if needed
Israel is one of the leading expert and a major exporter of desalination technology.

Politicians would never bring peace or solve any problem as they are the problem and the source of all the troubles in this poor world
It is only science and technology that really solve problems and saves lives