oh, you have a boyfriend?

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My comment was kind of snarky -- to clarify --

I see a lot of guys, here, elsewhere, and even myself in my late teens, having a very idealized or pie-in-the-sky idea of how a relationship should start, and how exactly that person will be.

Some hard truths here -- women who are in high demand tend to be the kind everyone likes -- duh. These women will tend to be in relationships for exactly the reason that any mentally healthy person will get into a relationship -- it feels good, makes you happy, makes you feel loved, etc. Since the laws of supply and demand work in female favor very asymmetrically in the teenages to late-20s, some of the best female candidates are going to continuously be in relationships. The ones that aren't in relationships are either shying away from relationships, have been very unlucky, or have some negative aspect about themselves that pushes others away. So basically, you have the have's and have-nots, and the have-nots are there for a reason.

A lot of guys are puzzled as how to get into a relationship with the sought-after/quality women. After all, it always seems like they are in a relationship, right? You meet a nice girl, you hit it off, it feels like you're made for eachother -- and then BAM, she tells you "I have a boyfriend." Your heart sinks, you get frustrated, etc. Well gee, didn't you think that anyone else also appreciated how good this girl was and asked her out? It's not like bargains just walk up to you -- you want quality, you have to deal with the "price" -- in this case, competition.

When we grew up as little boys and young men, we were continuously conditioned to be altruistic, to be a gentleman, to not interfere or dare think about getting in the way of someone else's relationship. I have news for you -- this attitude is going to end up with you giving up your place in line to the next guy time after time. You are going to end up a very lonely person, unless you get very lucky and catch a woman between boyfriends. This almost never happens. It happened to me, but mine came from another country and had only been here a few months when I met her. Will you be as lucky? Do you want to leave it to chance?

So you are going to need to face facts -- if you talk to a girl, and she seems normal, nice, relatively flawless, and likes you, there is a good 70% chance or better that she is already with someone. No one likes to be alone, everyone is human, and even if she's not dating the love of her life, she will be with someone. That doesn't mean she is meant to stay with him, or that he is perfect for her. Mating is a part of life, and part of mating is finding the right person. Sometimes that takes time, and sometimes people get dumped when their mate figures out they are not the right one.

To make an omelet you have to break some eggs. Animals in the wild compete for mates -- we're animals too. Yeah, we have rules, yeah, we try to rise above it, but we're still pretty much steered around by our hormones, more so than you would imagine.

i understand that people do this - basically wait for relationships to fall apart to swoop in and gather the spoils. but not everybody feels good about doing that. it is fundamentally dishonest, because it is not a true friendship based on trust.

one part of what you wrote caught my eye:



this is basically assuming that any single women between her teens and twenties has some *wrong* with her that is keeping her single. following the same logic, perhaps the same thing is true about single men of this age group? goose/gander

i'd say it's an unfair assumption about either gender.

It happened to me lol. Well, technically she was the one looking for a boyfriend, and found me on myspace. so I guess the situation was that she was between boyfriends, but she was thinking of me for the next one.

Hi Hyperlexian -- let me preface this by saying that I consider this a friendly debate, so please don't take my comments the wrong way, I'm just having fun here, and ultimately, it doesn't matter to me anyways, since I have my woman and have had my fun. Readers beware, broad generalizations below, and my personal POV.

For reasons I have discussed in this forum previously, the same logic does not apply to men. Men are always going to be on the "demand" side of the equation, but at the early ages, their relative "buying power" is much weaker than at later ages, when things in fact almost turnaround and stable, income-earning men are almost as popular as teenage girls are to their relative constituencies.

Men chase the physical, more specifically, they chase sex. They want sex, they want those who provide it. Gay men have each other, and believe you me, they have a lot of sex. Straight men have to basically beg for it from women. Women are incentivized not to give it up so easily -- after all, if they get pregnant, they're the ones stuck with the baby, and even if they give it up and don't get pregnant, men like variety, and can easily get bored. Women use relationships and the subsequent physical "rewards" to get what they want.

So what do women want? Early on, it just seems like attention, minor things, short-term goals, maybe money or dinner, sometimes to reproduce, but mostly just to experience life and "taste" the best guy out there. This is why you see so many young women chase the most handsome, mature, or physically developed specimens out there.

Fast forward to their mid-to-late 20s -- their goals change, they want kids, a stable husband who won't cheat on them, a man who will be faithful and satisfied with them and take care of their joint offspring (and sometimes even offspring from earlier relationships). This is where the rest of us guys who weren't so lucky in high school and college catch up and start winning. Now Mr. high school football star isn't doing so well -- he wasn't optimized for brains, just brawn, and he's already had his peak, mentally and physically. Now he's getting old prematurely, breaking down, not working in a really great job.

So this does a lot to explain why it was so hard for a lot of us to get girlfriends on the front end of our lives -- it wasn't our time. Later on in life, I see very pretty women married to very ugly but stable and successful guys. It doesn't take a math major to put 2 and 2 together.

Btw, women in their 30s who haven't been married yet -- yeah, sad to say, they are either very unlucky, don't want a relationship, or are driving people away (intentionally or not). With all of the demand for them, there really isn't any excuse not to have picked someone by then. When you go to the supermarket, which apples are the ones left on the stands? The damaged goods. Nough said.

eh, whether or not you think that tis may be sociologically the case, it does not necessarily mean that it is actually true on a case-by-case basis. society's overall tendencies are meaningless really, when making a decision about a person in front of you.

many many men and women of all demographics choose to be single, or they are particularly choosy, or they even could be unlucky for instance (badly located geographically. in a hamlet of 450, opportunities are limited). it simply does not work to take a general tendency of entire populations and apply it to an individual level.

for example, it could be said that the majority of apples become rotten by the time they are 6 weeks old. so if a person came across an apple that was 6 weeks old, the person should not assume that the apple was bad just because of the tendency of other apples to go rotten by that age. there are multiple reasons why an apple could still be fresh at 6 weeks. but a person could miss out because they automatically eliminated all apples of that age.

likewise, it is not an accurate or fair assumption to think that a person has something wrong with them if they are at a certain age, but happen to be single.

You're proving my point for me -- they chose to be single. So are you going to be very successful winning over someone who is choosing to be single? Why are they choosing to be single? What makes you think you specifically can overcome that general objection they have to having a relationship with everyone else?

My point is that they are not fertile ground for a relationship -- they have taken themselves out of circulation intentionally. In a world where you have to play the odds, spending time trying to win over a person like that is a very bad investment and a recipe for frustration.

So at the end of the day, you are looking for a relationship. Who would seem to be the better candidate to be in a relationship with -- someone who is already in one, has been in them, and wants to be in one, or someone who hasn't , isn't, and doesn't?

From your own personal experience -- the people you had relationships with, when you met them, were they single? For me, 80% of the time, they were not, unless they were transplants to the area.

bill, you bring up exceptionally valid points, as does hyper.

As for me, being single has just been my way of life for years. spent way more time alone than in relationships.
[ive been in a few.]

however, earlier you brang up the concept of questionable morality vs being alone.

why would I choose to ignore some aspect of morals, if she decided to do this to me in the future.

recently, she just admitted to me she has cheated before. Sure, I try not to judge, but after reading all of the posts here, I cant help but think that you are right bill. that even though she tells me amazig things about her bf, she may be wanting to move on.

Frankly, I dont want to be the catilyst for the relationships demise. I never met him, but from anyone i talk to, including her, he seems like a great guy.

If I went along and let it happen, keep edging her on, or whatever, then who is to say I dont deserve the same fate.

Im not looking for a fling, and certianly not a marriage. What im looking for is a solid relationship. something where I and my potential partner can explore what it is we like and or, do not like.

i am a gentleman. In my own twisted way. Indoctrinated in some sense. But have to stick to my convictions, or it will all be damned...poppycock.

hyper is also right, It would be an unfair assumption to say that any gender has any solid trait. seeing as broad and sweeping generalizations may be easy, but end unfair.

I dont look for generalizations, I look for the odd ones.

and NEWS UPDATE:
Y was over, we talked. she pet my head and talked about her previous experiences. while Z, the girl Y introduced me to, has been texting me more and more everynight.
we Y and her boyfriend, X and my buddy, and Z/myself, are going on some odd triple date thing.

this is a scary concept, being as Ive never done well in groups larger than 3

a perfect example of why generalizations dont apply to reality.

like the quote listed above.

sometimes it does, if you believe it does.

Well, then two months later it seemed like everyone wanted to date her, so we actually broke up for maybe a week? The only reason was because she felt guilty if she was going to go hang out with this guy as a friend, when we were dating. That was a pretty bad week, because I have low-self esteem when it comes to competition. Luckily, she decided to keep me because she knew that with me, even though I'm not necessarily the hottest guy on the planet, I do love her tons and we just understand each other and what each other has been through.

To me, this is a warning sign. I myself have been a cheater, and it really does make me less trustworthy to the person I'm with. I've done it to her twice, and there's always this nagging worry with her that I will do it again. I wouldn't trust a woman who makes a habit of cheating. I might have a fling (and have) with a woman who cheats, but I would use protection and not trust her with anything too important.

To me, and this is just my opinion, a cheating woman is even less trustworthy than a cheating man. I think men cheat for stupid reasons like sex and looks. Women tend (here's a big generalization again) to cheat for bigger, deeper reasons. They are mad at you, dissatisfied, or find something better about the other person. Btw, when I cheated, it was a combo of opportunity and also from some very tough challenges in our marriage. I was forgiven - not everyone is.

Here's a little factoid to chew on -- 10% of all children that men think are theirs aren't, meaning that the woman got pregnant by someone else and passed it off as the guy's kid (to those of us in the U.S., this is a very familiar plotline from the Maury Povich show). Scary! Source for this is the book Spermwars, though I have seen the same figure in other works.

way to be sexist bill.

you are just as low as any woman who cheats. it is a matter of honor, trust, and emotion that you have commited twice to one person.
I am incapable of cheating. I can't bring myself to.

yes. but look at the other stats. it is rare to find an honest working relationship these days, and i refuse to go into one that isnt honest and doesnt fit the moral needs.

If I were cheated on, I would break up with no second thought. Why? because their reasons for cheating will never be good enough for me. Deep, shallow, or otherwise.

I think both sides of the coin, man or woman, can be discusting.

I dont remember who said it, but there was a quote:

"never underestimate human compassion, emotion, or brutality"

Way to be personally insulting, bob. Go f**k yourself.

I didn't stoop to personal insults about you, but you did to me. Welcome to my s**t list. You had better hope we never meet in person.

or what?

and in any case, where is your sense of debate?
where is you lighthearted debate against my claims?

dont be so insecure. come up with a debate. its easy to throw out insults. too easy. What I gave you was a challenge to come up with a debate.

are you going to take it, or throw a flurry of virtual fists at me, and think you can get me afraid of you?
ain't going to happen buddy.

your thoughts were valid and reasonable earlier on this thread. what prompts the sudden change?

think: why are you not sexist?
why are the statements you just made sexist, and or not sexist?
formulate a responce

Im glad things worked out for you.
sounds like you showed the system.

People in a debate don't throw names around. You're 19, and your mouth is writing checks your body can't cash -- unless you're bigger than 6'2", 220 -- that's me. Please stfu now -- you clearly don't know anything about what you are talking about, and you're talking relationships with a man who is married, had his fun and more, and has been around the block. You resorted to insults, at which point I realized I was talking to a ret*d child. Please go back to eating paste and let the grown ups continue our discussion.

first off, I wouldn't cheat on my wife. You did. TWICE. Congratualations on your marriage, because as much as I may think you dont deserve her, she obviously does, and has some unexplainable tolerance for you that I can't describe.

I am bigger than 6'2", and if that was a challenge to a match of fisty-cuffs, where do you want me to meet you billy? The playground at 3? grow up man. I dont care how old you are, but if your going to bring size into this, you obviously ran out of valid arguments.
See, I started this thread. I have my questions, and people answer them and or debate on them. Not talk about thier size and try to make me feel little.

Im not even going to bother telling you how fast I could drop you on your face. It isn't worth it.

Plus let me add, you are using the wrong insults on the wrong forum. Sure, I'm an aspie. Does that make me ret*d. Let's count the number of people on here who agree with that.

Again, If you think Im afraid, because you are overwieght, by almost 40 pounds, and over 6'2", you are very, very wrong.