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Countess
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09 Aug 2010, 8:27 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Poppycocteau wrote:
I used to work as an agency worker in nurseries and all of the small children would flap about like that when excited. It's just what toddlers do. I think if they did it when they were being quiet and calm then it might be considered hand-flapping in the sense that people mean when they talk about Autism.


Thank you! I used to work with 2 year olds in a daycare, and they all did this... except the two Autistic children.

I guess more than anything, I was surprised to see someone call that hand flapping.


That's interesting. My son only does it when he is excited. It's one of the first things that people notice that's "off" about him. But it's usually also men that ask if it's "normal". I don't have a lot of experience with young children so I wouldn't know either.

Some of the people that work with him call it that too.

Here's another, what is different (sincere question)?:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDuAugAykcc&feature=related[/youtube]



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09 Aug 2010, 8:33 pm

Countess wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Poppycocteau wrote:
I used to work as an agency worker in nurseries and all of the small children would flap about like that when excited. It's just what toddlers do. I think if they did it when they were being quiet and calm then it might be considered hand-flapping in the sense that people mean when they talk about Autism.


Thank you! I used to work with 2 year olds in a daycare, and they all did this... except the two Autistic children.

I guess more than anything, I was surprised to see someone call that hand flapping.


That's interesting. My son only does it when he is excited. It's one of the first things that people notice that's "off" about him. But it's usually also men that ask if it's "normal". I don't have a lot of experience with young children so I wouldn't know either.

Some of the people that work with him call it that too.

Here's another, what is different (sincere question)?:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDuAugAykcc&feature=related[/youtube]


I see two distinct differences in these two videos.

1) The child in your video is flapping their hands and not smacking their stomach.
2) The child in your video doesn't appear to be overly excited the way the child in my video did.

See, I posted this because I had never seen stomach smacking called hand flapping. I was curious of any of the other parents here saw it as hand flapping or not. Part of this curiosity was fueled by the fact that as I was watching the video I posted, I saw my 3 year old daughter doing the same thing. It's something she's always done, and it never appeared to be connected to her hand flapping, which resembles the child in the video you posted.


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Countess
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09 Aug 2010, 9:01 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:

I see two distinct differences in these two videos.

1) The child in your video is flapping their hands and not smacking their stomach.
2) The child in your video doesn't appear to be overly excited the way the child in my video did.

See, I posted this because I had never seen stomach smacking called hand flapping. I was curious of any of the other parents here saw it as hand flapping or not. Part of this curiosity was fueled by the fact that as I was watching the video I posted, I saw my 3 year old daughter doing the same thing. It's something she's always done, and it never appeared to be connected to her hand flapping, which resembles the child in the video you posted.


I understand now. Thank you for clearing that up :)



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10 Aug 2010, 4:01 am

Agreed on the difference in the videos, and I haven't even watched the second one. Just look at how the toddler is standing, and how her arms are positioned. THAT is the stance and hand positioning that seems to be associated with autism. And I am carefully saying "seems to be associated" because there are no absolutes when it comes to toddlers and movement ... except that parents can expect it to be exhausting ;)


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10 Aug 2010, 5:56 am

The only thing that was noticeable about my son's development and behavior in his first 2 years was that he didn't go through the "babbling" stage of language development. He just got to a certain point and then didn't develop language and began to have major sensory issues. As a matter of fact, when he was diagnosed that's what I thought Asperger's was (sensory sensitivity). The fact that his basic behavior was just like me as a child was commented on by family members but the idea of autism didn't occur. I'm curious about this because it seems some kids show signs right away and others only after about 18-24 months or so. Why the difference?



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10 Aug 2010, 10:07 am

i'd agree that first video is not really hand flapping. in looking at the date and posting, it seems the child wasnt diagnosed at the time, she was diagnosed nearly 2 years later and the video posted 6 months after that. sounds to me like parents trying to look into the past and look for early signs they may have missed. there is no movement at the wrist joint, its full arm movement, and the hands are contacting something (her belly) with intent.

the second video is definitely hand flapping. if you look at the positioning of the arms and hands, its kind of like in a "bird pose" and the actual flapping takes place mostly at the wrist joint, and it is basically purposeless movement, no contact intended.

i didnt see hand flapping in my son until after his 4th birthday, and its not very often. i do see a lot of finger manipulation tho, his little fingers wiggle around in the air for no reason, or he has to touch everything in sight. walking down the aisle of the grocery store is a nightmare. you can see the little girl in the second video doing some finger manipulation in between hand flapping and bouncing.


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10 Aug 2010, 2:35 pm

The 2nd video is definitely the kind of flapping that my son who is 5 (diagnosed as PDD-NOS/possible Asperger's) does. He does it when excited, and sometimes when talking or telling a story. He also does it sometimes when he is running in conjunction with shaking his head back and forth.



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10 Aug 2010, 2:51 pm

Aimless wrote:
The only thing that was noticeable about my son's development and behavior in his first 2 years was that he didn't go through the "babbling" stage of language development. He just got to a certain point and then didn't develop language and began to have major sensory issues. As a matter of fact, when he was diagnosed that's what I thought Asperger's was (sensory sensitivity). The fact that his basic behavior was just like me as a child was commented on by family members but the idea of autism didn't occur. I'm curious about this because it seems some kids show signs right away and others only after about 18-24 months or so. Why the difference?


That is a matter of intense speculation even among the experts. The only thing that has been pretty much ruled out is the vaccine connection, although there still is controversy on that.

Some people believe that the signs were always there but too subtle to be conclusive (that is likely to be my son); others believe there may be unknown environmental factors increasing the severity of the condition until it gets noticed (haven't actually ruled that out completely with my son, even though I most definitely can look back and see early signs - they just weren't conclusive).

I've speculated a bit on the "trip" theory, myself, because I am aware of situations where it actually happened with my son: the child is fine with exposure to something until one day it is too much, and they create an overdeveloped defensive reaction, much in the way our bodies do with allergies, except in this case it is to something sensory or emotional.

Most likely, there is a little bit of all of the above, which is why the answer has been so difficult to ferret out.


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10 Aug 2010, 3:03 pm

My son actually started shaking his head back and forth (as if he is saying "no") the day after his 4 month old vaccines. (Not to support the vaccine theory, but it does make you say hmmmmm?) He didn't start flapping until 1 yr old though. Our main concern was his delays in achieving physical milestones at first. He babbled, had words, eye contact, smiled, cuddled, ate normally. But right after his 2nd birthday, we realized he was memorizing his books and parts of cartoons, and not really using his words to communicate.

After talking to family members on my husband's side, I found out that one of his nephews flapped his hands, one of them ran on his tiptoes. These 2 boys are fine now. But, I do wonder if maybe the gene runs in the family and then just mutates over time causing the autistic traits to manifest differently.

Autism is just so confusing because every case is different, although there are many common elements.



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10 Aug 2010, 3:19 pm

angelbear wrote:


Autism is just so confusing because every case is different, although there are many common elements.


Truer words were never spoken.


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10 Aug 2010, 4:04 pm

i think the discrepancy with when we notice things has a lot to do with the fact that its a spectrum disorder. not every child hand flaps, not every child has language issues, etc. so often we dont notice anything is different until we reach one of the milestones or stages where a childs particular expressed traits are going to be noticeable.

my asd son was different from my other children from the first day we was born, and we could see it in varying ways over the first few years. as a baby, he couldnt sleep without being held. it wasnt colic, he just had to be against us in some way to sleep. he couldnt stand being restrained. he didnt smile hardly at all, didnt like the swing like his brothers did.

the finger manipulation was a big thing in knowing something was not typical. he was breastfed and from the time he could make a pincher grasp, i had scabs and sores all over my breasts. he would pinch and roll his fingers together and cut me with his nails, every day, the entire time while nursing. trying to hold his hand would make him pull off and cry. trying to keep myself covered would result in him struggling to move the clothing/blanket and not nursing until he was able to pinch. to this day, he is always moving his fingers or playing with or touching objects.

despite all of that, autism wasnt even on the radar when it came to thinking what could be the difference. then came the lining up toys, toe walking, lack of playing with other kids, things that are common asd traits and can be used to diagnose.

after the diagnosis we can all look back and say "oh yeah, thats a red flag" about a lot of behaviors. but we simply arent trained or taught to know the little behaviors that can add into the autism pot. how many of us really knew what autism was before we were forced to find out? probably not very many.

for a lot of us, theres also the familial connection. despite always knowing something was different, we didnt know it was autism until our son was 4. a lot of his idiosyncrasies we chalked up to "he is just like his daddy!" well duh, of course he is, and now we know his daddy is autistic too =) so sometimes those traits we see are are interpreted to be just inherited traits, not inherited autistic traits.

i see a definite genetic base in my own family, but for others who cant trace those roots the same way, or whose children regressed after typical development, i just dont know. i believe we will eventually learn the cause(s), and maybe we will see then the reasoning behind it.


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10 Aug 2010, 4:08 pm

I don't see anything particularly unusual about the little girl in the first video and I agree with those who've suggested that the parents are probably looking back for any early signs they may have missed.

The girl in the second video, on the other hand ... yes. This is pretty much the way my son flaps his hands - the positioning, the whole body posture, the way she holds her fingers... The context as well. The first girl is clearly very involved in and excited by the cartoon she's watching, whereas the second girl is looking at a photo album while thinking her own thoughts. Not usually the kind of activity that brings about excited gestures.

My son didn't start flapping till he was about 4, I think. He's now 8 and he flaps a lot.



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10 Aug 2010, 4:18 pm

All this kind of begs the question ... is there anything "we" should be doing when we find such missinformation on the web?


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10 Aug 2010, 4:19 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
All this kind of begs the question ... is there anything "we" should be doing when we find such missinformation on the web?


I've been wondering this myself. I considered posting a comment on the video, but thought it might end up being out of line.


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10 Aug 2010, 4:29 pm

What's the actual title of the first video? In other words, how would I find it on Youtube myself?

It is hard to judge what comment to post without seeming ... I don't know ... dismissive maybe. However, it might be worth commenting that flapping behaviours can be absent or manifest themselves very differently in autistic children. Also, flapping on its own isn't necessarily a red flag for autism.



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10 Aug 2010, 4:34 pm

Marcia wrote:
What's the actual title of the first video? In other words, how would I find it on Youtube myself?

It is hard to judge what comment to post without seeming ... I don't know ... dismissive maybe. However, it might be worth commenting that flapping behaviours can be absent or manifest themselves very differently in autistic children. Also, flapping on its own isn't necessarily a red flag for autism.


You should be able to just double click on the video and youtube will open in another window/tab.


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