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monsterland
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01 Sep 2010, 2:57 pm

MDD123 wrote:
When I was living in MO, I walked with my shoulders back and my back straightened, I had no idea how unatural it looked and the only kind of comment I ever got was from a girl who asked if my back had been injured. I've seen people deliberately walk with their arms out a little like "John Wayne" and I just wonder if that's how you look when you try to send the "alpha male" signal.


I tried on a lot of "ways of walking" in adolescence. Eventually settling on something that blends common sense and Japanese martial arts - head up, shoulders down and aligned with hips on horizontal plane, more or less. As to how far the arms go, it has to be natural. You have to get a feel of your body's dimensions and physics. Neither "stiff arms by the side" nor the "happy cartoon walk" will do.



A_Spock_Darkly
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05 Sep 2010, 11:34 am

monsterland wrote:
Semantics. When they're not obnoxious, they're still loud and very much extroverted. It's an internalized trait that you can never fake as good as them.


That was more a joke than anything. Hey, if you believe Alpha Males have to have one personality type, that's okay. I'm not going to be convinced of that, and there's no convincing you. But look around you. Not every guy that gets the girl is a loud-mouthed, obnoxious extrovert.

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There is always an Alpha Male in an NT crowd, and if you want to be one, you will have to beat those who have been doing it since they were 5 years old.


I don't understand your fixation on young age. People don't become effective leaders of grown adults when they're 5 years old, nor does that have to be when they start practicing. These skills can be acquired within months for most people.

Most people don't ever strive to be a leader, because it's too much responsibility and they lack the boldness to step up. It's usually the person willing to lead that ends up leading initially, and then they prove their own competence and cement themselves. It doesn't take worlds of experience, but passable competence.

Quote:
Well that was a waste of time. That article says nothing about alpha males. Actually, it says nothing at all.


If you want to lie and act like that article didn't apply to this conversation, that's your problem. You're being dishonest and dismissive of food for thought.

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It was clear that by "me" I could as well have used "you" or "anyone". It was used as a means of making an example.

You, however, responded by making it about me personally, and implying that I have self-esteem problems.


I believe you likely do have self-esteem problems, given the tone of your posts here. I wouldn't make a personal attack against someone for low self-esteem, that'd be sick.

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You really should surrender your nickname and avatar and give them to someone classier.


I'll be keeping them both.


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DGuru
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10 Nov 2010, 10:12 pm

ladyrain wrote:
It doesn't seem very suitable for people who would rather have just a few nice people in their lives, and passable enough behaviour to anyone else.


Speak for yourself. That might describe most Aspies but all we really have in common is lack of inborn social skills and intense interests.

I don't have the social skills but my social desire rivals that of most NTs and it pisses me off when I hear of NTs thinking things about how I am thinking that doesn't actually reflect my own internal thoughts and desires. I'd say my desire to be understood is greater than my desire to be liked but that both are important.

To be perfectly honest I often fantasize about being in situations where I am the one making the social rules, where I am the center of the group and people look up to me so much that I don't really need to have any idea of the "social norms" of the world outside of me because I'm the one who creates them in the first place.

I hate being seen as a loner just because I'm not always comfortable making the first move(why the hell won't people just come and talk to me?!) and I hate being seen as quiet. While I am quiet it's not out of personal preference it's out of not being able to think of something to say or knowing whether what I have to say will be received. Engage me with something to talk about and I'll start talking. I also hate when people say I don't hang out enough and then every single time I go to hang out nobody's available. I hate putting in effort for "maybes" and getting disappointed when nothing materializes.

I want so much attention and as time has gone on in my life I become more and more attention starved. I have literally become so wanting of social attention that I "shutdown" over a lack of it, and also "shutdown" if something seriously negative happens in a social situation. Mostly this "shutdown" is just me suddenly feeling very tired and needing a lot of sleep.

It's not fair that there's not many people like me to share my experiences with. Most people who spent middle school and high school friendless and don't socialize much say they never really cared or wanted them that much. Why can't there be another me out there who wanted them very badly but didn't know what to do in order to get them and not only wanted them but craved a lot and whose craving for socializing just built and built and built the longer he went without? I feel alone in the world, a misfit among misfits.

As far as worrying about looking fake, it's not like my facial expressions and body language conform to my internal state in the first place. All I want is to be able to "fake" it to look like how I really feel on the inside so people can see the real me. But I'll admit I wouldn't purposefully go out of my way to display my true internal state when feeling vulnerable or sad if I perfected this "faking it". Personally I just want to figure out the "confident" posture but I've realized that the typical presentation of the "confident" posture makes a person look both confident and uptight. I don't want to look uptight. I want to look relaxed. I want to look relaxed and confident. Rigidly sitting up straight is not going to make me look relaxed, but slouching won't make me look confident. It seems like there's no hope.

As far as making it in the world I care way more about my personal happiness. Sorry if that sounds selfish. I see no point in holding down a job, making money, even if I have the most money in the world if I can't have happiness. I feel like I am completely cut off from ever experiencing true, sustained happiness. I suppose if I become that rich however I can just hire servants to socialize with me all day. I don't care that it'll be fake. Honestly, the activity aspect of socializing has always been far more important to me than the genuinity aspect. As long as they'll talk, joke, play games, etc. I'm cool with that and they can think what they want on the inside. The outer appearance is all that enters my senses anyways. I only care about what might be on the inside now because it can have implications for the person's future actions towards me.

Sorry for the rant but all this tension had to get off my chest. I got a group of friends now but I feel underappreciated, underrespected, I'm always noticing I tend to be in the back in social situations(physical position wise), and I hate that and would prefer to be upfront more of the time because I know this reflects a subconscious hierarchy from my readings on human social behavior and I know I can't talk to them about it because 1. they'll get scared that I desire becoming the alpha(I don't care how difficult it is I feel like I need it to make up for years of pain, hurt, bullying. I need a catharsis) and 2. Since it's subconscious they'll just say I'm overanalyzing social situations(which they don't know I'm an Aspie but they've noted that I tend to overanalyze people). Even if I point to the science they'll still say that.

There's even more evidence. It seems like everyone expects my before I've had a chance to prove myself to be completely incompetent. People don't even trust me at things they KNOW I KNOW everything about. This only makes it harder to socialize because from what I've learned I've applied and I pick up on all the negative signals.

I even hate being seen as the "nice" guy. "Nice" guys get taken advantage of. I think I'm a "good person" based on my own standards but personally don't think I have the values that society ascribes to "nice" guys. It just seems too weird and offputting to openly state that I take offense when someone says I'm "nice".

I've never ever been seen for who I am on the inside. In high school I was a rebel at heart. I knew way more about revolutionary politics and had some of the most radical political beliefs but I was usually too scared to talk about them, even truncated my views though I'm open now in college. It actually made me angry back in high school when teachers and staff liked me(though I kept this anger to myself). I didn't want love from the establishment(note: never had a dx), it was making me look like some goody-two shoes even when as a result of being aware of the class origins of many social norms I was strongly opposed to a great deal of the things education tried to pass of as "good values".

I know my body language, my facial expressions, and my speech all conspire against me, none of it matches who I am or how I really feel most of the time and it gets to me. Then again maybe all this is because in spite of all these values I've never had the confidence to live up to them, to put them into practice. But it seems like these opportunities don't really present themselves or I'm not ready when they do. Good practice of values requires practice, actual practice.

EDIT: As for loud and obnoxious. I would LOVE to be loud and obnoxious for my own benefit just as fun, but I'm often too afraid to allow myself, because I'm not sure what other's reactions will be.

EDIT: I guess you could say I have a very high need for personal autonomy and conversely a high need for lots of socializing without any understanding of "how". I want to be able to be myself without any care for what other people think and still spend lots of time with people all the time. It's almost like being between a rock and a hard place.



NeantHumain
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10 Nov 2010, 11:43 pm

DGuru,

You just have to get over the fear and actively be the one doing the approaching, saying hello, etc. You may embarrass yourself, some people may not particularly like you, but it's the only way to meet people. If you don't want to be off in the corner, speak up and put yourself into the center of the group. People unfrortunately won't magically know you want to speak or what you think, so you have to do it for yourself.



roadGames
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11 Nov 2010, 1:21 am

Projecting that body language is a huge factor in getting women to like you, but also reading body language is also massive.



DGuru
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11 Nov 2010, 1:27 am

NeantHumain wrote:
DGuru,

You just have to get over the fear and actively be the one doing the approaching, saying hello, etc. You may embarrass yourself, some people may not particularly like you, but it's the only way to meet people. If you don't want to be off in the corner, speak up and put yourself into the center of the group. People unfrortunately won't magically know you want to speak or what you think, so you have to do it for yourself.


More complicated. I know I can't just go up to someone and say "hey let's talk about something"(they'll respond "like what?" and I know just saying "anything" would come off as awkward) or "want to socialize?" and sometimes it's hard to think of what to say or I think of what to say and then the moment passes. In the past when I talked more people would keep commenting on how I'd always pause too much before talking.



NeantHumain
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11 Nov 2010, 1:29 pm

DGuru wrote:
More complicated. I know I can't just go up to someone and say "hey let's talk about something"(they'll respond "like what?" and I know just saying "anything" would come off as awkward) or "want to socialize?" and sometimes it's hard to think of what to say or I think of what to say and then the moment passes. In the past when I talked more people would keep commenting on how I'd always pause too much before talking.

See a therapist. You're making excuses for yourself. Yes, socializing isn't always easy, but smalltalk is a learnable conversation skill. Sometimes it's easier to get the other person talking. Ask open questions that tend to prompt more than a yes or no answer. If some people don't like you, learn how to shrug it off and move on. Practice is the best way to learn these skills.



The_Face_of_Boo
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11 Nov 2010, 1:53 pm

Surya wrote:
ladyrain wrote:
A_Spock_Darkly wrote:
Without a group structure there is no alpha. Wouldn't an idealistic human equivalent of alpha be something like Captain Jean-Luc Picard (ST:NG)?

Quiet confidence is an admirable trait in anyone, because genuinely confident people tend to treat others with respect.



Gamma..
and yes.. that would be nice..
ever look at brain waves of the different types?

mmmmm..

for me, Beta or Gamma types are the best.. I have no interest in the sleepers..


I am a Gamma guy.

Very unstable, radioactive and self-destructive.



cmjust0
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11 Nov 2010, 3:49 pm

A_Spock_Darkly wrote:
Tip: Pretend there's a straight rope coming from your solar plexus, and pulling your front upward.
...
Tip: Relax.


Am I the only one who sees a problem here?



BMH
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13 Nov 2010, 12:11 am

Quote:
I've never seen introverted alpha males.

Image



Erwin
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13 Mar 2014, 2:43 pm

DGuru wrote:
ladyrain wrote:
It doesn't seem very suitable for people who would rather have just a few nice people in their lives, and passable enough behaviour to anyone else.


Speak for yourself. That might describe most Aspies but all we really have in common is lack of inborn social skills and intense interests.

I don't have the social skills but my social desire rivals that of most NTs and it pisses me off when I hear of NTs thinking things about how I am thinking that doesn't actually reflect my own internal thoughts and desires. I'd say my desire to be understood is greater than my desire to be liked but that both are important.

To be perfectly honest I often fantasize about being in situations where I am the one making the social rules, where I am the center of the group and people look up to me so much that I don't really need to have any idea of the "social norms" of the world outside of me because I'm the one who creates them in the first place.

I hate being seen as a loner just because I'm not always comfortable making the first move(why the hell won't people just come and talk to me?!) and I hate being seen as quiet. While I am quiet it's not out of personal preference it's out of not being able to think of something to say or knowing whether what I have to say will be received. Engage me with something to talk about and I'll start talking. I also hate when people say I don't hang out enough and then every single time I go to hang out nobody's available. I hate putting in effort for "maybes" and getting disappointed when nothing materializes.

I want so much attention and as time has gone on in my life I become more and more attention starved. I have literally become so wanting of social attention that I "shutdown" over a lack of it, and also "shutdown" if something seriously negative happens in a social situation. Mostly this "shutdown" is just me suddenly feeling very tired and needing a lot of sleep.

It's not fair that there's not many people like me to share my experiences with. Most people who spent middle school and high school friendless and don't socialize much say they never really cared or wanted them that much. Why can't there be another me out there who wanted them very badly but didn't know what to do in order to get them and not only wanted them but craved a lot and whose craving for socializing just built and built and built the longer he went without? I feel alone in the world, a misfit among misfits.

As far as worrying about looking fake, it's not like my facial expressions and body language conform to my internal state in the first place. All I want is to be able to "fake" it to look like how I really feel on the inside so people can see the real me. But I'll admit I wouldn't purposefully go out of my way to display my true internal state when feeling vulnerable or sad if I perfected this "faking it". Personally I just want to figure out the "confident" posture but I've realized that the typical presentation of the "confident" posture makes a person look both confident and uptight. I don't want to look uptight. I want to look relaxed. I want to look relaxed and confident. Rigidly sitting up straight is not going to make me look relaxed, but slouching won't make me look confident. It seems like there's no hope.

As far as making it in the world I care way more about my personal happiness. Sorry if that sounds selfish. I see no point in holding down a job, making money, even if I have the most money in the world if I can't have happiness. I feel like I am completely cut off from ever experiencing true, sustained happiness. I suppose if I become that rich however I can just hire servants to socialize with me all day. I don't care that it'll be fake. Honestly, the activity aspect of socializing has always been far more important to me than the genuinity aspect. As long as they'll talk, joke, play games, etc. I'm cool with that and they can think what they want on the inside. The outer appearance is all that enters my senses anyways. I only care about what might be on the inside now because it can have implications for the person's future actions towards me.

Sorry for the rant but all this tension had to get off my chest. I got a group of friends now but I feel underappreciated, underrespected, I'm always noticing I tend to be in the back in social situations(physical position wise), and I hate that and would prefer to be upfront more of the time because I know this reflects a subconscious hierarchy from my readings on human social behavior and I know I can't talk to them about it because 1. they'll get scared that I desire becoming the alpha(I don't care how difficult it is I feel like I need it to make up for years of pain, hurt, bullying. I need a catharsis) and 2. Since it's subconscious they'll just say I'm overanalyzing social situations(which they don't know I'm an Aspie but they've noted that I tend to overanalyze people). Even if I point to the science they'll still say that.

There's even more evidence. It seems like everyone expects my before I've had a chance to prove myself to be completely incompetent. People don't even trust me at things they KNOW I KNOW everything about. This only makes it harder to socialize because from what I've learned I've applied and I pick up on all the negative signals.

I even hate being seen as the "nice" guy. "Nice" guys get taken advantage of. I think I'm a "good person" based on my own standards but personally don't think I have the values that society ascribes to "nice" guys. It just seems too weird and offputting to openly state that I take offense when someone says I'm "nice".

I've never ever been seen for who I am on the inside. In high school I was a rebel at heart. I knew way more about revolutionary politics and had some of the most radical political beliefs but I was usually too scared to talk about them, even truncated my views though I'm open now in college. It actually made me angry back in high school when teachers and staff liked me(though I kept this anger to myself). I didn't want love from the establishment(note: never had a dx), it was making me look like some goody-two shoes even when as a result of being aware of the class origins of many social norms I was strongly opposed to a great deal of the things education tried to pass of as "good values".

I know my body language, my facial expressions, and my speech all conspire against me, none of it matches who I am or how I really feel most of the time and it gets to me. Then again maybe all this is because in spite of all these values I've never had the confidence to live up to them, to put them into practice. But it seems like these opportunities don't really present themselves or I'm not ready when they do. Good practice of values requires practice, actual practice.

EDIT: As for loud and obnoxious. I would LOVE to be loud and obnoxious for my own benefit just as fun, but I'm often too afraid to allow myself, because I'm not sure what other's reactions will be.

EDIT: I guess you could say I have a very high need for personal autonomy and conversely a high need for lots of socializing without any understanding of "how". I want to be able to be myself without any care for what other people think and still spend lots of time with people all the time. It's almost like being between a rock and a hard place.

I've seen these normal people and they suck at socialising . Inborn my ass. In order to be yourself, you must realise it's impossible to stop caring, you are social. You are as socially adept as any normal person. Point is to understand people. NOONE gets pushed out of the pack and is accepted as who he/she is. Unleds you offend someone unfairly.



OliveOilMom
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13 Mar 2014, 3:36 pm

monsterland wrote:
I've never seen introverted alpha males. They're ALWAYS loud, obnoxious and quite obviously extroverted.

If there's an "assertive" introvert in the crowd, their voice and behavior will always be trumped by a real alpha male, who has been an alpha male their whole life, and to whom it isn't some "learned skill".

I've known and dated plenty of alpha males and even married one. They are not always loud or obnoxious, and while they may be extroverted they aren't always obviously extroverted. Your remark reminds me of a comment that someone I used to know made when we were talking about him losing weight and getting in shape. He was thinking about exercising at home or walking and I suggested the gym or lifting weights at home and he said he wouldn't life weights or go to a gym because thats what jocks do and jocks are assholes and he doesn't want to turn into one of them. Lumping all alpha males (or jocks) into the catagory of jerkiness is just as bad as lumping all aspies into the catagory of dateless losers forever. Yes, some alpha males may be jerks, but some may be dateless losers. Some aspies may be dateless losers but some may also be the same type of jerk that many here seem to equate with alpha males.

What makes them always obnoxious in your opinion?


Quote:
It's not my job to completely revamp your self-esteem.


That is a clever response, but I was referring to one's inability to permanently change from introverted to extroverted behavioral mode. No need to get into personal attacks.


I changed. It was hard, very hard, but I did it. Took a long time and it wasn't on purpose, I was just trying to make myself talk to people and be "normal". Extrovert never entered my mind.


ETA; Just noticed the dates on the thread. Thought it was new. My bad.


_________________
I'm giving it another shot. We will see.
My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA. ;-)

The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com


Erwin
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14 Mar 2014, 5:06 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
monsterland wrote:
I've never seen introverted alpha males. They're ALWAYS loud, obnoxious and quite obviously extroverted.

If there's an "assertive" introvert in the crowd, their voice and behavior will always be trumped by a real alpha male, who has been an alpha male their whole life, and to whom it isn't some "learned skill".

I've known and dated plenty of alpha males and even married one. They are not always loud or obnoxious, and while they may be extroverted they aren't always obviously extroverted. Your remark reminds me of a comment that someone I used to know made when we were talking about him losing weight and getting in shape. He was thinking about exercising at home or walking and I suggested the gym or lifting weights at home and he said he wouldn't life weights or go to a gym because thats what jocks do and jocks are assholes and he doesn't want to turn into one of them. Lumping all alpha males (or jocks) into the catagory of jerkiness is just as bad as lumping all aspies into the catagory of dateless losers forever. Yes, some alpha males may be jerks, but some may be dateless losers. Some aspies may be dateless losers but some may also be the same type of jerk that many here seem to equate with alpha males.

What makes them always obnoxious in your opinion?


Quote:
It's not my job to completely revamp your self-esteem.


That is a clever response, but I was referring to one's inability to permanently change from introverted to extroverted behavioral mode. No need to get into personal attacks.


I changed. It was hard, very hard, but I did it. Took a long time and it wasn't on purpose, I was just trying to make myself talk to people and be "normal". Extrovert never entered my mind.


ETA; Just noticed the dates on the thread. Thought it was new. My bad.

So you started socialising thr same way any normal person would and were as successful? Clearly a coincidence!