'Good' guy behavior vs. obsequious behavior

Page 1 of 2 [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,364
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

27 Sep 2010, 9:48 pm

I was out Friday night and got reminded of something. I was with a friend, we were celebrating his birthday, and a friend of ours was wearing something like four inch heels that were bothering her to the point where when we left the first club she decided to take them off and walk barefoot on the city sidewalk. We got a ride back uptown from some amazingly cool girls who I hadn't met, apparently friends of my friends from around the way. They got to talking, our friend mentioned the heel incident, and one of the other girls brought up that we should have carried her - that a lot of guys would volunteer that.

I know this example might be an exaggeration, and I have a feeling most aspies would be like "Pff...serves her right for wearing torture racks on her feet" but it brought a question to mind.

For a long time I've noticed that as a guy, there's a lot - I mean a *lot* that gets labeled as obsequious (I'm sorry ladies - you do make this quite complicated), you could even be doing something strictly out of the kindness of your heart and not be thinking at it at all, and you'd have it pointed out to you that it looked a lot different from a second or third party perspective. My biggest concern with myself is that, in ridding myself of all obsequious behavior (or anything that might look 'weak' - apparently I have a nimbish and wholesome enough genetic look where I would have to be a bit more dry to make up the difference for what society inherently projects on me), at the same time I feel like there are a lot of basic courtesies, required courtesies even, that I don't extend - not out of being a clueless loser - I've just seen what's done to other guy's, I know what's been done to me in the past, it gets more challenging to give openly or non-reciprocally in an immediate sense when the right amount is on razor's edge.

So what I'd like to know, if the ladies could take a shot at it here, what sort of courtesies are required of a guy anymore? What's really the dividing line? I know that there's a pretty big significance between woman with depth/intelligence and women who are more strictly horizontal/social - the first is pretty close to intuitive from a guy's perspective, a relationship with the later can be a lot like babysitting a friend on mushrooms. So, going from the assumption that we're talking about women who have depth (luckily I'm in the right place to ask! :) ), is there anything considered 'fair' to expect from a guy that might be counter-intuitive? Especially in our culture as it stands?



Tsiiki
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 1 Dec 2007
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Posts: 275

27 Sep 2010, 10:13 pm

Um... I kinda get what you're asking, but not completely sure what sort of behaviors are done differently between guy guy and guy girl, and girl girl...

But the few things I do notice is guys holding doors open for me... I don't think they have to, but sometimes it feels nice... a lot of times makes me somewhat uncomfortable though...

I mean, if I notice anyone is within 5-8 feet of a door, I'll hold it open and wait for them to come in, but don't generally swoop ahead, grab door and hold it open waiting for other to pass it through first...

...thats about the only thing I notice differently... frankly I just wanted to be treated and respected as a human... I'd rather not have a guy come up and hit on me, or start whistling at me and stuff... its disconcerting and embarrassing, but talking to me and asking me how my day is, or maybe in passing saying something like "you look nice today" or something is much better...

As for the shoes incident... yeh... *rolls eyes* carry her home? gimme a break =___= her fault for wearing them!! !! Although I have to say I have worn heals before and taken them off and walked barefoot... and I also ahve to say I've worn birkenstock sandles that bothered me from flapping around and taken off and walked barefoot too... I went a week walking barefoot all over campus because my shoes hurt like hell and didn't wanna spend money to buy new ones XD... I never seen any one offer to carry, nor did I expect them to, and if they did, I'd probably hit them over the head with my shoes =.=;

*shrug* so long as you don't look at me like I was a piece of meat to f***, and treat me kindly with respect, I'm pretty much fine...



hyperlexian
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 21,997
Location: with bucephalus

27 Sep 2010, 10:35 pm

can i first say that i had to look up the word 'obsequious'? my vocabulary is not so expansive! thank you for giving me a new word.

now... not sure if i can answer this particularly well, as i am getting the distinct impression that i don't fit into the girl cookie cutter too well. but i'll try.

first off, that is ridiculous to me that anybody would expect to be carried if their tootsies hurt from their stupid shoe choice. however, i had more than one boyfriend push me around in a shopping cart, which i found hysterically fun and romantic and sweet. but i wasn't wearing silly shoes; it was just a spur-of-the-moment funny idea.

two times, i've forgotten my sweater at work and then had men offer their jackets to me when i was cold. i said no, because it seemed a little too personal, like a courting ritual. apparently men still offer women their coats when it is cold.

i've recently had men in my life offer to carry my bags or coat when i was a bit overburdened. i sometimes said yes, depending on our relationship.

men still hold doors open for women, i have noticed. i do the same courtesy for men, though i usually hold it open behind me, as opposed to the way men do it - they sometimes stand at the door and face the woman as she enters.

i've occasionally had a man give me a seat on the bus, which feels silly, but i would not kick up a big fuss and make a scene; i accept the seat graciously.

a couple of these examples seem to depend a bit on the relationship. i always thought a man does courtesies like a carrying a woman's things or offering a coat when he finds a girl attractive, but maybe i am mistaken? it's the blind leading the blind when it comes to social interactions here!


_________________
on a break, so if you need assistance please contact another moderator from this list:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt237032.html


Chronos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,996

27 Sep 2010, 10:55 pm

It does serve her right for wearing torture racks on her feet.

You had no obligation to carry her. It would have been a kind offer (if she were light enough to carry comfortably) but to do so would be out of the ordinary.

In my book, politeness and civility work both ways. I think a woman should hold a door for a man much the same as a man should hold a door for a woman.

The primary advantage men have over women is strength, so in situations where a woman is struggling with some physical task, I think it's generally appropriate for a man to offer to help in many but not all situations.

If it were your girlfriend or wife, you should most definitely help. If it's a woman you don't know, you may or may not offer to help, depending on the task and the context.



HopeGrows
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Nov 2009
Age: 43
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,565
Location: In exactly the right place at exactly the right time.

27 Sep 2010, 11:08 pm

If the young lady in question had broken a foot or an ankle, carrying her would have been a helpful and natural response. But carry her because she wore the wrong shoes? Umm, no.


_________________
What you feel is what you are and what you are is beautiful...


pandorazmtbox
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 25 Jul 2010
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 297
Location: Cone of Silence

27 Sep 2010, 11:41 pm

I'm laughing at all the common sense responses from our Aspie board. :lol: Yes, I agree, wear bad shoes pay the consequences. However, I have been out and seen this done. Whether it was a ploy for body contact and flirting (executed by both the male AND the female) I have no idea, but it sure seemed contrived to me. That's the thing, I think (and again...I'm learning I'm far more clueless about such things than I ever conceived) any sort of behavior that encourages laughing and body contact combined with a little social lube (like drinks at a bar) is a really good way to score. So if you're playing pool, pull her close and chalk her stick. If you buy her a drink, be sure to hand it to her and find a way to touch. And if she takes off her shoes, offer to carry. >.<

Personally, I'd be mortified if someone carried me--it's only been recently that I have learned to not feel guilty and embarrassed about door holding. I guess my question back to the OP would be, just what kind of relationship are you looking for? Because these games establish that. Also, your strategy will attract a certain kind of gal. What I'm hearing from the aspergirls is, offer to carry me over my dead body, but you might get a very different reaction from the kind that are like babysitting shroomheads.


_________________
-Amy
without the dark of night we could not see the stars
hereirawr.wordpress.com <---shameless self-promo


hale_bopp
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2004
Gender: Female
Posts: 16,686
Location: New Zealand

27 Sep 2010, 11:50 pm

The sensible thing to do if shoes bother you is to take them off.

I'm not going to say "Its her fault for wearing them" because sometimes you don't realise shoes are uncomfortable until you've worn them for ages.

The thing that bothers me about that is someone should not have to carry a girl with painful shoes simply so she can "still look pretty" while being carried. It seems outrageous.

The shoes are the problem, remove them rather than manipulate others so the problem can still be, but be "lesser" of one.

Its different if the girl has OCD or something and can't put her feet on a dirty pavement - there was a stage in my life where I would rather die than do that - and lets face it - it STILL bothers me I would feel anxious and upset about doing it - but I wouldn't expect to be carried. I would put up with the pain.



sluice
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Age: 108
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,569
Location: center of universe

28 Sep 2010, 12:18 am

As a guy, I think you just got to treat people like you want to be treated. Women are smart enough to know when a guy is doing something out of good courtesy rather than kissing up. If she is carrying something heavy, then get the door for her. If she pregnant or older than offer your seat on public transit. I know I work in an environment where we work late and there is some crime. I'll offer to walk a woman to her car during these times, since I am a big, strapping guy. I don't really do any of these things expecting anything. You should do it because the way you should be, and some girls pick up on that.



techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,364
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

28 Sep 2010, 5:54 am

sluice wrote:
As a guy, I think you just got to treat people like you want to be treated. Women are smart enough to know when a guy is doing something out of good courtesy rather than kissing up.

I guess what I have to do is keep in mind that I should do whatever I want because I want to and, if someone looks at me condescendingly for it - just not show them the same courtesy again, which is kind of where I'm at.



LostAlien
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2009
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,577

28 Sep 2010, 6:21 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I was out Friday night and got reminded of something. I was with a friend, we were celebrating his birthday, and a friend of ours was wearing something like four inch heels that were bothering her to the point where when we left the first club she decided to take them off and walk barefoot on the city sidewalk. We got a ride back uptown from some amazingly cool girls who I hadn't met, apparently friends of my friends from around the way. They got to talking, our friend mentioned the heel incident, and one of the other girls brought up that we should have carried her - that a lot of guys would volunteer that.

I know this example might be an exaggeration, and I have a feeling most aspies would be like "Pff...serves her right for wearing torture racks on her feet" but it brought a question to mind.

For a long time I've noticed that as a guy, there's a lot - I mean a *lot* that gets labeled as obsequious (I'm sorry ladies - you do make this quite complicated), you could even be doing something strictly out of the kindness of your heart and not be thinking at it at all, and you'd have it pointed out to you that it looked a lot different from a second or third party perspective. My biggest concern with myself is that, in ridding myself of all obsequious behavior (or anything that might look 'weak' - apparently I have a nimbish and wholesome enough genetic look where I would have to be a bit more dry to make up the difference for what society inherently projects on me), at the same time I feel like there are a lot of basic courtesies, required courtesies even, that I don't extend - not out of being a clueless loser - I've just seen what's done to other guy's, I know what's been done to me in the past, it gets more challenging to give openly or non-reciprocally in an immediate sense when the right amount is on razor's edge.

So what I'd like to know, if the ladies could take a shot at it here, what sort of courtesies are required of a guy anymore? What's really the dividing line? I know that there's a pretty big significance between woman with depth/intelligence and women who are more strictly horizontal/social - the first is pretty close to intuitive from a guy's perspective, a relationship with the later can be a lot like babysitting a friend on mushrooms. So, going from the assumption that we're talking about women who have depth (luckily I'm in the right place to ask! :) ), is there anything considered 'fair' to expect from a guy that might be counter-intuitive? Especially in our culture as it stands?

I think the main thing to keep in mind as others have said is to treat women as human beings and don't do stuff you feel is silly.

I agree about the shoe thing. If I suddenly found myself in painful shoes all I'd do (and have done rarely) is ask the people I'm with to walk slower but I don't generally wear "torture racks" on my feet. I've also been annoyed at other women who've expected sympathy for their pain when they've worn these shoes before and knew that they couldn't walk more than a few feet without pain in them (especially when they knew we needed to walk to our destination). Shoes can be comfortable when trying them on first so I can see how it could happen once but more than once indicates sillyness.



spongy
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2010
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,180
Location: Patiently waiting for the seventh wave

28 Sep 2010, 6:56 am

First off I think that the "offering to carry her" was done as a joke and I dont think someone would expect to be carried just because they were wearing shoes that hurt them.

A few years ago I had a friend that loved doing this "joke" thing to see how would I react, the only one that I can remenber right now was like this:

We were outisde my house waiting for her mother to pick her up(I think we had spent the evening doing a school project or something) and when her mother came she left. The following day when she saw me at school she said "wanna know what my mother did after I got in the car?" I told her I had no interest whatsoever but she kept talking"she asked if you were my boyfriend" after a few seconds of awkward silence I realized she was expecting me to say something so I told her to tell her mum that guys like me werent looking for a partner(I was 14 and I had little interest on having a gf by that time), she laughed and when her friends showed up she told her what just happened and we all laughed.


I dont do much obsequious behaviour:
I can make compliments to females and do so to most my female friends but only when I mean them. On a side note two male friends complimented my hair yesterday(I usually have messy hair and yesterday I spent some time fixing it so it looked good for first day at university) apparently its ok to do that here. ie:if she has a new haircut and I like it I´d compliment it but if I dont like it I´d just ignore she had a haircut.
I can ask how was her day and that kind of thing same way I can ask any male I care about.
I can hold doors but I dont usually let girls go first as another user mentioned before I dont hold it open waiting for others to pass first most of the time.
I can lend a book or a cd if I realize we share some sort of interest, however I can also do this for a friend of the same sex but the number of times I lend a book to another male is lower than the one to females.

I think you had a great idea and I hope we can all learn something usefull from this post.


_________________
Please take the time to answer this quick survey to help improve the community

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt255139.html


dryad
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 359
Location: Central Florida

28 Sep 2010, 7:13 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
So what I'd like to know, if the ladies could take a shot at it here, what sort of courtesies are required of a guy anymore? What's really the dividing line? I know that there's a pretty big significance between woman with depth/intelligence and women who are more strictly horizontal/social - the first is pretty close to intuitive from a guy's perspective, a relationship with the later can be a lot like babysitting a friend on mushrooms. So, going from the assumption that we're talking about women who have depth (luckily I'm in the right place to ask! :) ), is there anything considered 'fair' to expect from a guy that might be counter-intuitive? Especially in our culture as it stands?


A) I'd be absolutely humiliated if someone tried to carry me unless I was drunk (there goes the dignity) or incapacitated. Walking barefoot is not a valid form of incapacitation.

B) Holding doors open is acceptable, but I'm not going to wait for you to do it. Offering to help carry bags is also acceptable.


sluice wrote:
As a guy, I think you just got to treat people like you want to be treated. Women are smart enough to know when a guy is doing something out of good courtesy rather than kissing up. If she is carrying something heavy, then get the door for her. If she pregnant or older than offer your seat on public transit. I know I work in an environment where we work late and there is some crime. I'll offer to walk a woman to her car during these times, since I am a big, strapping guy. I don't really do any of these things expecting anything. You should do it because the way you should be, and some girls pick up on that.


This is good advice.


_________________
Previously Certified Curmudgeon. License expired May 04, 2011
Now downgraded to merely difficult.


Pobodys_Nerfect
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 737
Location: New Zealand

28 Sep 2010, 8:33 am

Maybe the friend was just trying to hint that the high heel girl wants to be your "girl friend" not just friends.



techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,364
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

28 Sep 2010, 10:51 am

spongy wrote:
First off I think that the "offering to carry her" was done as a joke and I dont think someone would expect to be carried just because they were wearing shoes that hurt them.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure those girls were just pulling our chain on that one. I agree with other posters here - if someone wants to be carried they just need to hang with someone else.

To all: I think my general behavior is that I typically treat guys and girls pretty similar. Yes, I'd leave the door open for someone behind me if going into a building and hold it for them to grab - guy or girl, just like if someone had their arms full of boxes or had a two or three-year-old lagging behind them I'd open the door.

Compliments - that's skiddish territory, as I'd rather a girl know me well enough to know that I'm just giving her props and support in good choices, little more.



techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,364
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

28 Sep 2010, 10:53 am

Pobodys_Nerfect wrote:
Maybe the friend was just trying to hint that the high heel girl wants to be your "girl friend" not just friends.

Negative. Regarding my friend she likes getting out with him because he does fun stuff, they have way too much history and she's freaked out the few times that he did something even ambiguous on her birthday. She's not someone I'd see much of, or at all, if it hadn't been the three of us out (and while we're all single she'd not my type either).