Hi everyone! I'm new & could use your knowledge!

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Thank you, angelbear for the tips & advice. My son does sound similar to your's. And I like that you use "fascinated" instead of "obsessed". I will be changing the way I use that word I appreciate your advice!

LOL! I still think the word "obsessed", but have just recently started saying "fascinated" My son has even asked me "Mom, am I fascinated with bathrooms?" LOL!

When you say this, I have this feeling that there is something wrong here, but I can't figure out what precisely it is to say what worries me, but like this isn't a good idea, but I couldn't tell you why. Maybe I'm just tired.

It sort of rubbed me the wrong way too. I think because it is using his passion toward something and limiting his exposure to that passion to manipulate his behavior. While I understand the methodology behind this I think there are inherent risks associated with it. It reminds me of conditioning--and I know a lot of parents here have success with that, such as with ABA. It just always backfired on us. I think the higher functioning they are, the more likely this is to backfire on you.

I have to respectfully disagree on this one. When your child spends a large part of his or her day engaging in non-productive behavior and shows very little interest in things that are going to help them learn and become engaged in other things, I think it is worth it. They are still getting to engage in the "stimming" or repetitive behavior, which they are going to do anyway, but at least you are able to use it to an advantage to show them something new. If we just allow our children to engage in what they choose for the large percentage of the day, they are going to have a hard time learning that there are other things in the world that they need to know about.

I have a very hard time motivating my child to learn new things. He does not care about toys, he doesn't care what other people think about him, so the special interests are highly motivating to him. I am not trying to change who my son is, I am just trying to use his interest in repetitive things to help him learn things that are necessary in life.

I see it the way you do, angelbear. And the way his psychologist explained it is like what you just said. It isn't that I intend to take what he likes away. I know I wouldn't like that. But I want to limit it because it does control most of his day. At age 4, he is learning new things in preschool & I'm trying to get them ready for kindergarten. When we sit at the table & I have him write his name (which he still is unsure how to hold the pencil, crayon) I want him to focus on that & not on whether or not he can turn the washer or dryer on. If I can get him to sit still & practice what he needs to learn in school and reward him with time to turn the dryer/fan, etc. on, I feel like we both win. Like I'm not taking away what he loves & he is doing what is expected in school.

I am not trying to be argumentative but caring about toys or how other people think of him may be things your son will never do, with or without you allowing him or controlling his access to the things he is interested in (and that may not be a bad thing). It's a very difficult step for a parent to be able to see that truth and be ok with it, and not try to make their definition of success or being a "member of society" be the goal for their child. That is not to say we give up-we just realize that perhaps "normal" isn't normal for everyone. The resistance to trying new things is very normal in ASD and you can perhaps expand his interests by utilizing his special interests-but I think this is done better by engaging him in the special interest (as in when you have a Star Wars fan and teach them math by using Star Wars) instead of wielding the special interest as a power you control to condition him. Just my opinion, FWIW.

thats rather interesting, i had the same little niggle in the back of my mind this morning when i read the OP's part about the psych recommending to use special interests as rewards.

we sometimes limit certain special interest things, like video games, to promote more variety and for health reasons, but we usually dont get to that point until they are at an extreme. we dont use them as methods of manipulation or take them away entirely. the main worry for me is that these special interests are what the kids use to relax and destress. if we take them away, then we take away their ability to self calm and self regulate. i would also worry that limiting their ability to indulge in a special interest is going to make that interest even more appealing because of the limitation, and they really will develop an obsession if not allowed to investigate their interest on their own time.

its good to remember that this pattern of intense focused interests is so NORMAL for autistics, that its part of the diagnostic criteria. and if you spend any time on the other forums listening to the adult autistic members, you'll find that this pattern doesnt change as they get older. the topics may change and evolve over time, but the pattern of behavior generally doesnt. trying to alter that is to fight the nature of the child himself. these special interests are sometimes the only thing of comfort and familiarity for the child in a world that he doesnt understand.

if you brought up this idea of using special interests as rewards with the adult members, im fairly positive you would get a very negative response to the idea.

I just want to point out that the OP is talking about a four-year-old who, basically, plays a lot. Seriously, this is really the equivalent of an NT who plays tag with his friends every chance he gets or something (whatever NT kids do). We don't expect productivity of four-year-olds. Rightly or wrongly, as a culture, we have decided that until the age of five, you're not required to do work, and from five to about ten or so, you're still expected to have some time for play every day. This is never in question for NTs except in truly desperate circumstances where lives are at stake. I really think that because this is a nonstandard way of playing, you're not treating it like what it is: a very young child who spends most of his time amusing himself. This is exactly what our culture expects and values at this age.

You very much do come off as someone who knows better than anyone else and will just criticise everything they say no matter what. If it is not something you agree with you pull them down like there is nothing else to do, other than to threaten them with their life and it very much comes across like that.

His obsession is not with turning things on, and to me that would create a special interest. When one has the obsession of simply watching something and that is what is being said that he does, watches for hours and hours on end, then it is seen as stimming. If he wants to watch them spin, then what will be gain from pulling them apar, which is what you say he wants to do. I used and still do love watch the colours of things when they move and believe me I see things in movement that others will never see. Just because my autism is different to yours does not mean that these things do not happen, all people are affected differently and all people have different senes affected in different ways. But according to you the only thing that matters is a specail interest and anything a child does is always related to that specail interest. I can assure you that for me, my stimming behaviours and the like have nothing at all to do with my special interest.

As a child I loved watching the colours that were created when trains were on the track and believe me they create electricity over the track as they go over it and it lasts for a few seconds. The problem was that the best way to see those colours was to be next to them. It is not safe for anyone to stand on a train line. I had to find other ways to stim. And this is what I see in this child. I do not expect any four year to be so out of control in public that they continually run out the room the parent is in, touch things they shouldn't etc. Sure all kids do things to some degree, but what is happening with this child, may be fine at home, but it is not fine in public places, from a four year old or any other child. In order for him to be comfortable being in public places he has to learn ways to calm himself that do not cause a major nightmare. I hardly think that a child rolling around on the floor of a major shopping mall is something we should encourage them to do, just because it is there way of calming themselves down. Hitting people when they are angry is not acceptable either. I also have issues where I need to touch things at all times. I have things I carry in my pockets that I can touch and feel at any time I need to. It allows me to participate in this behaviour in a healthy way. The simple fact is there are some behaviours that people with autism participate in that are simply not healty and certainly not safe. Running onto a road is not safe, and the children I know of also cannot tolerate human touch. But then when you tie a cord around their wrist to keep them safe and with you it is somehow wrong. I guess that means we just permanently keep the child at home, or watch them run onto the road and get run over???

There is no doubt that this child is only four years old and no as a community we do need to allow him to be 4. A four year old does not sit still for hours on end, etc, etc. But nor do we allow a four year old to run across the road, pull things off people, turn things on that they are no right to touch, etc. The simple fact is that many many people with autism engage in behaviours that are not safe. And we do have a need to keep them safe. That does not mean totally stopping what they are doing, but to try and redirect it to my safe behaviours and/or more socially acceptable behaviours so that he can go out and about like his other brothers do.

Do you propose that if the only thing a child does is to run onto busy roads that we simply allow that as afterall it must be the child's special interest??

This person asked for advice and every single person is going to have different advice. Maybe what I offer is not right for this child, but believe it or not, maybe what you are suggesting is not right for this child either. No one is right all the time and the sooner you can learn that the better you will be. All I offered was my opinion and that is all she asked for. But according to you it is illegal to have opinions, unless of course they are identical to yours. Grow up and start to respect that not every single person the world is ever going to agree with everything you think and feel, and that not agreeing with everything you think and feel is not wrong.

Please explain how not agreeing with you is WRONG?? All I did was to express an opinion and if I can't do that, without having my life threatened and believe me when you say you wish I was dead then it is pretty hard to think anything else, then clearly this forum should not exist. You are one incredibly disturbed person who needs some serious help.

If you don't like my response, perhaps you should look at the response that you made to me, when all I did was to express my opinion as the original poster suggested. I never once said that what you or anyone else had said was wrong or that they should be dead for expressing such a opinion

I will have to seriously consider my ongoing involvment with this forum, as I sure as hell did not come here to be threated the way you have threatened me. One also has to question what sort of moderation, if any is operating on this forum if you can post as you did.

Yeah... I suck at politeness. No argument here.



You're right; those things do point to the idea that it might be a stim. It's not one of mine, but I can relate to a different sort of fascination with moving things that is closer to what could be a special interest. I thought the OP said he liked turning them on/off, though. Did I get that wrong?



Christmas lights? Mirror? You've probably figured out plenty of stuff by now, I guess. Oh, look through one of those not-really-transparent (not tinted, either, but sort of bubbly) windows. Look from different angles till you find the one that turns it into a million tiny pinpoints of different-colored lights. Just in case you hadn't found that one yet.



I didn't get the impression from the OP that he was that oblivious or endangering himself as much as you're giving advice based on; it seemed more like the OP was mainly upset over the fact that he was spending his time on something that didn't immediately appear valuable, and further wanted to stay and watch fans in inconvenient (but non-dangerous) places, holding people up and stuff.



Did the OP say that? Wow, I miss everything!



Indeed. Generalize that to "there are some behaviors that some people of all neurologies engage in, these behaviors varying based on neurology among other things, which are not healthy or safe" and I will have no issues with this at all.



Good point. I was assuming processing capabilities similar to mine, namely the ability to notice that something is a road and remember that roads are dangerous and alter my behavior based on that all quickly enough to react in real-time. I forgot that some autistics lack one or more of those skills, especially four-year-old autistics.



You're right, of course. Your other post came off as if you were thinking "this behavior looks odd/is annoying, therefore let's come up with something different, doesn't matter what it is so long as it's not the behavior he came up with himself." (I've basically run into this before, alas.) The stick idea specifically doesn't seem to me like it would work-- I know what fans look like and I know what it looks and feels like to twirl a stick, and they differ in the ways I consider important (not necessarily the ways you, or this boy, consider important, which I forgot, sorry). And this is all assuming it is a stim, which I'm not fully convinced of.



You're right that it might not be a special interest. I would definitely try to figure out why the kid is doing that, and the question of whether it's worth allowing should be asked (it probably isn't).



Possible. That's why the OP asked a forum; surely if my advice were guaranteed to always be correct, the parents who come on here would PM me rather than casting their net wide.



I suspect I may be taking this remark too literally, because I don't think I mentioned anything about legality, and anyway, I certainly don't believe that opinions are the sort of thing we need laws about. Nor the expression thereof. Nor do I consider myself the sole arbiter of truth, nor the moderator of this discussion. But the mere fact that I'm saying it tells you that it's my opinion. Anyone who reads my posts knows that, by definition, the opinions I express are my opinions, and unless I'm particularly uncertain, I see no need to point out the obvious.



I would hope people disagree with me quite often. I'm sure there are things I'm wrong about, and although people would never be idiots and fail to see things I can grasp easily if they all thought like I do, they'd also all be wrong about all the same things. Again, this is why we have a forum. This is why God made so many different kinds of people.



By definition, I believe that what I believe is correct. That I believe that anything which contradicts my beliefs is wrong follows from this. What gets stated in my posts is not necessarily reality, but my beliefs; I think my beliefs reflect reality, but that's not certain. However, I can't believe that any specific beliefs of mine are incorrect, because if I do, they cease to be my beliefs. Ergo, I must believe that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, or risk a paradox.



Okay, I had no idea that was going to be interpreted that way. I want to say, right now, that I have a really bad habit of saying stuff I'm sure is totally innocuous and it turns out everyone else-- EVERYONE else-- uses that particular phrasing to make veiled threats. Or not-so-veiled threats. But specifically that comment of mine... what I meant to say (I have no clue whether I misspoke or you misinterpreted; it's probably the former) is that I had, after posting, realized that what I meant as... what's the word? Very convinced that what I'm saying is true and important? There's surely a word for that. Anyway, what I meant to come off that way came off really rude, but I didn't know how to say it more politely without coming off like I didn't really believe it or something, so I wanted to make a disclaimer. But explaining rudeness to other people (especially NTs, but not just NTs) never seems to work. I wasn't sure how to say "well, saying this politely isn't what I mean, and saying it rudely is, but I didn't mean to be rude" without it sounding like nonsense. I keep getting told that when I accidentally come off as rude (you'd be surprised at just how often) people think I'm trying to imply that I hate them and want them dead (I have no clue how they manage to get from "I wish I weren't speaking to you" to "I wish you'd die" but apparently they do), so rather than say "I didn't mean to be rude" I said that I didn't mean the undercurrent (not explicitly stated but somehow assumed) of "I hate you and wish you were dead," which I most certainly didn't mean. I figured then you'd somehow manage to understand me, which I've been hoping someone will do since forever, but nope, it turned out even more insulting this way. Oh, joy. I hope this paragraph doesn't come off as rude, but somehow it probably will. Such is life. Not your fault.



You're gonna let one person spoil WP for you? Dude, I'm inconsequential.



After my above clarification, do you still feel this way?



Okay, see, I felt that you said stuff that was incorrect, and I wanted to point that out strongly. Clearly you're more upset by my post than I was by yours. (I don't blame you, thinking I was making death threats... I'd be upset too.) But it doesn't seem to have come off that way. But what I specifically want to say here is that this is an apples-and-oranges comparison-- I didn't like what you said, but I'd wager a guess you didn't like the way I said what I did, since it basically boils down to "I disagree with you."



Well, personally, I think you can explicitly disagree with someone without that being rude (though clearly I fail at this). If you think someone is wrong you should say so.



Didn't (willingly and knowingly) say that. However, I can kind of see why you thought I did, and if I had, that would indeed be inappropriate.



Well, the moderation we have here is in the form of people who read over posts after they're made, rather than having posts looked over before they're published on the site. Some sites use the latter system, but most of the time that only works on sites that move slowly, or sites that consist of articles or stories rather than discussions. So it's not surprising that a member would see an inappropriate post before a mod.

I just wanted to clarify what I mean by using certain special interests to motivate my child. I do not plan on taking away every special interest from my child and then wielding them over his head to get him to do things. That is not what I was referring to. Just the things that really do not seem like a special interest that is going to go anywhere. For example, pressing buttons on the phone over and over. I don't see that as a special interest. I see it more as a stim I guess. But, after awhile it becomes very annoying, it ties up our phone line, and he has gotten through to people and I have had to run and grab the phone and apologize that my son was just playing with the phone. Not that it is that big of a deal, but it is just not something that I think will expand into anything useful. So, this is something I will use to for example get him to sit and learn to write for a little bit.

Also, I don't see how flicking light switches on and off is a special interest. My son has started doing this all the time. When we are doing something in the kitchen, or reading something in the living room, or trying to get ready for bed, he will just walk up and turn the lights off. I think as a parent, I have to teach him that this is annoying and bothers people. It is not appropriate behavior. Just like taking off running down the street because he sees a particular model of a Volkswagen that he loves is not safe or appropriate.

But, I do indulge him in his special interests. He has a drawing board and he loves to sit and draw churches and bathrooms over and over. I let him do this because it is not hurting anyone, it is not bothering anyone, and he loves it. I will talk about the drawings with him too, and try to find out what makes him so interested in them. I will play games and talk about car makes and models because I know he loves it. I feel like this has really increased his vocabulary too and his play skills.

I guess the word "productive" was not a good choice of words for a 4 yr old. I agree that children do need to be children and today's society seems to be wanting more and more from then at an earlier age. I do get that. I guess what I meant is something as simple as sitting still at a table for more than a second so that you can help them understand that to learn things, you have to be able to listen to someone else speak for a minute or so.

I know that my son will more than likely never be "normal" I don't know what his future holds. But he is an only child, and I had him at an older age. I am trying to do whatever I can to teach him life skills that he will need. I don't care if he is "the life of the party" or has tons of friends, or has the best job in the world, I just want him to be safe and able to do as much as he can for himself so that he won't be placed in a home and not be able to speak up for himself when I am gone.

To the OP, not every thread you post will get this controversial. Sometimes, other posters just get into their own
arguments, and you just have to ignore those!

"To the OP, not every thread you post will get this controversial. Sometimes, other posters just get into their own
arguments, and you just have to ignore those!"

Thank goodness. I was reading the replies & wondering about that.

Just to add some perspective regarding "stim" vs "obsession/special interest". My daughter flicks her wrists. This is a stim. She does it A LOT. She does it so much that she stands out and appears "odd" in public. It also escalates/becomes more severe if I call her attention to it. I believe this is because it makes her nervous/anxious when I call her attention to it. That nervousness/anxiety promotes more NEED to do the action, which is an action that is calming to her.

Now, in the case of watching the fan-this is most likely a stim (in my opinion). I do not know the boy so I cannot tell you for sure but if watching spinning objects is calming or pleasant then he is doing it to calm or self regulate. Stims have been controlled and limited by some parents on this board successfully-many have limited the time and place the stim can occur. However, I have not heard of allowing a child to stim as a reward for completing another task. Maybe others have done it successfully? I don't know.

If his need to watch the spinning objects is similar in nature to the flicking of wrists (at least neurologically-what it does to them) then I feel it would be wrong to use it. However, when you get to things, as angelbear stated, where it is flicking lights on and off, or the fan on or off, or disrupting the normal and expected use of the object, then that should be limited, as it is inappropriate. However, if, as we stated, the boy were able to get a spinning light toy, and you told him he could only hold/look at the toy if he did X, that seems inappropriate to me. But I have never been big on conditioning. I feel my daughter's abilities to self regulate lag behind her peers and if she needs to flick her wrists to do that then who is that really hurting?? My mother used to think I was harming my daughter by allowing her to do inappropriate things like this but I (and she, thankfully) has long since come to the conclusion that she's just not going to fit into the "typical" box right now. Maybe someday she'll grow out of her need to stim, but until then, it's not for me to control (even if I could). It just wouldn't work if I said "you can flick your wrists after you do your math homework". Maybe watching spinning objects is different, I don't know?

It is interesting reading all the different opinions/views on this. I know not all psychologists agree & advocate the same things either. I think this is where it becomes hard for people who are just starting the whole process of learning about this disorder & dealing with it. We aren't sure yet what will work. So here is a question. If my son is too interested with what is going on with the washer/dryer or continually asks whether he can turn it on or take clothes, etc., rather than doing school work or things that he needs to get done, how do I deal with that? I don't understand how to take his mind off of that for a short time in order to the things he needs to do, without making it in to a reward. By all means, I don't want to change him or take away something that soothes him. But, there comes a time when he has to put that in the back of his mind in order to move forward with what needs to be acoomplished at that time. And I know he's only 4, so I'm hoping I learn so much more before he gets in to grade school & really has to focus on what he is supposed doing.

Last night, I tried the reward thing. And it worked really well for him. I told him he needed to hold his crayon correctly & write his name. I said, "Jonah, if you write your name for mama, you can go in to my bedroom and turn my fan off & on by yourself." And he did it! He held his crayon correctly & wrote his name. We did this a few times. Then when homework time was over, he asked if he could go in my bedroom by himself. I said, "Absolutely! You did a great job." I also want to add that he has never once tried to put his fingers in a fan; just in case someone is reading this & thinking I'm crazy for letting him do that

I am reading all I can on the internet & taking advice from others to see what will work best for him. Right now, we both have so much to learn before we find out what fits. Thanks for the suggestions.

I think we all have to decide what works for our particular child. Each child is unique and every case of autism is unique. Mama to Grace, yes, flapping hands or flicking wrists is something my son does. I would NEVER use this as a reward /punishment because I know this is something neurologically that he needs to do to self regulate. My son likes to repeat phrases over and over and sing to the top of his lungs too. These are things that I allow him to do when appropriate, but am trying to teach him that there is a time and a place for these as well. For instance, one morning at school, they could get him to do nothing because he kept repeating the recorded phone messages that he has memorized. (We're sorry, this call cannot be completed as dialed, please hang up and dial your operator) LOL! He just kept saying it over and over. I just think this is a behavior that needs to be worked on. I just think we all have to use our mother's intuition and do what is best for our child.

I do find these discussions helpful. It helps me to keep things in check. Mamalove, I am glad this approach worked for you. I don't see any harm in the scenario you described. I can tell you too, that a lot of times my son will get really interested in something for awhile, and then he lets it go. For example, this summer, I was playing different music for him and I would let him choose CD's to listen to from my collection. He found one group that he wanted to listen to over and over. I let him do it. He started asking about the band members and then began to talk about them like he knew them. We visited a relative over the summer who thought it was strange that a 5 yr old was talking about that and suggested that I try to get him to stop obsessing over it. I politely sort of agreed just to get off the topic. I continued to let him do this the rest of the summer, and then all on his own, he just decided to stop listening to the CD's

I have to share,that right now, my son is sitting and playing with the phone because he got a good report at school today! LOL!