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phil777
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25 Feb 2011, 8:40 pm

I agree Via, yet... =.= Law is an everchanging process, and can be influenced by society, ideology or religion. <.<



jamieboy
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25 Feb 2011, 8:45 pm

visagrunt wrote:
A fair trial can be just as compromised by prejudice of the innocence of the accused as prejudice of the guilt of the accused.

Sweden is a parliamentary democracy in which the rule of law exists. Perhaps we should all just let justice take its course, and allow Assange to confront his accusers in a fair and impartial forum.

If he did as his accusers claim, he deserves to be punished. If he did not, he deserves to be acquitted. His celebrity and the actions of Wikileaks should have no bearing on that process.


Although i have heard that Sweden doesn't have trial by jury (i may be wrong). This will give the swedes a chance to pick a bias political judge whom i predict will convict Assange of rape whether he's guilty or not.



Woodpecker
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26 Feb 2011, 3:25 am

Well I hold the view that Assange has been accused of the third most serious crime on the statute book, but we should not tolerate guilt by accusation.

He is still entitled to a fair trial, I would hold the view that becuase he lawfully entered the UK that he should be subject to both the UK and Swedish legal systems. When the two legal systems disagree then he should be subject to the one which is more protective of him.

But I hold the view that if he got convicted in the UK he would get a nastier sentance than he would in Sweden. I have never been locked up, but I have heard that Swedish jail is much nicer than an English jail.

What is interesting is that in Sweden some public figures have commented on the case in a manner which in England could be a crime. It is a crime to comment publically on a English court case as it undermines the fairness of the case. For example to go on a talk show during a trial and to state that the person is guilty, or to have a shadow jury on a TV show during a trial is illegal in England.

I also find it interesting that a man who irks so many goverments by helping to leak documents lives such a reckless life, if you agree with Mr Assange's version of the events then I think it would be likely that you would come to the concusion that he has been a bit of a cad. Why does a man who is likely to attract the wrath of so many goverments not trying to live a quiet life ?


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MotherKnowsBest
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26 Feb 2011, 7:25 am

jamieboy wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
A fair trial can be just as compromised by prejudice of the innocence of the accused as prejudice of the guilt of the accused.

Sweden is a parliamentary democracy in which the rule of law exists. Perhaps we should all just let justice take its course, and allow Assange to confront his accusers in a fair and impartial forum.

If he did as his accusers claim, he deserves to be punished. If he did not, he deserves to be acquitted. His celebrity and the actions of Wikileaks should have no bearing on that process.


Although i have heard that Sweden doesn't have trial by jury (i may be wrong). This will give the swedes a chance to pick a bias political judge whom i predict will convict Assange of rape whether he's guilty or not.


You are quite right, there is no trial by jury here. The case will be decided by a judge and 3 lay judges representing the political parties. The trial will be held in camera, so no press or public included, and only the decision will be released afterwards, the transcript will not be made available to public or press.



anna-banana
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26 Feb 2011, 4:50 pm

if the Swedes give him up to the US it will be a clear message that the whole western civilisation with its democratic values is a huge lie. I don't think I'll feel like I should abide the social contract anymore if the EU or any of its countries allows the Americans to silence Assange.

that being said, I do think he should stand trial for the sexual allegations, as I don't feel like I could be the judge of whether or not there's any truth to them.


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ikorack
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26 Feb 2011, 5:05 pm

Eh, I don't like this notion of private trials. It allows Sweden and anyone who can influence them to charge anyone with a sex crime, there would be no discernible way for the public to tell a kangaroo court from something else.



Subotai
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26 Feb 2011, 6:03 pm

Vigilans wrote:
It is obvious to all of us, but 20 years down the line, anti-Internet free speech people will cite Julian Assange as a sexual predator whenever Wikileaks is brought up (in an irrational manner, obviously, but that is what appeals to close to 50% of the US, at least), and by that time, this whole situation won't be as fresh in everyone's memory. Whether he ends up winning the case or not, they may have already won by planning in the long term like this as a means of discrediting the Wikileaks movement and Anonymous


Indeed. This is the long term goal. Today the science of manipulating the mass opinion is so sophisticated and it's only getting better.
It's f*cked because these elite groups will win because they have all the resources backing them, human nature dictates that any of us would do the same in their shoes.. and already do with our own positions in society.



Dantac
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26 Feb 2011, 7:53 pm

anna-banana wrote:
if the Swedes give him up to the US it will be a clear message that the whole western civilisation with its democratic values is a huge lie. I don't think I'll feel like I should abide the social contract anymore if the EU or any of its countries allows the Americans to silence Assange.


I agree 100% .

Quote:
that being said, I do think he should stand trial for the sexual allegations, as I don't feel like I could be the judge of whether or not there's any truth to them.


Thing is, you can bet good money that those charges popped up because of the alleged harm Assange did to the US and other $$$ interests worldwide.



anna-banana
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27 Feb 2011, 12:45 pm

Dantac wrote:

Thing is, you can bet good money that those charges popped up because of the alleged harm Assange did to the US and other $$$ interests worldwide.


sure, but Assange is also quite known for failing to keep his unprotected business in his pants. of course his reputation could be part of the smear campaign, but what do we know? I say let him be judged according to whatever evidence there is. as long as he doesn't end up in American hands, he'll be ok.


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Dantac
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27 Feb 2011, 1:19 pm

Perhaps. I'm more interested in the fact that if wikileaks did not exist he would not be receiving the kind of trial or criminal prosecution he is facing.

Since the US cannot criminally charge Assange for what he did since he is not a US citizen or resident they are pressuring the only gov. that can prosecute him to nail him with whatever charge they possibly can.

Look at the curiously convenient timing of it all.

Mid-year 2010 (June/July) the first batch of secret documents are released (iraq war docs)..and the US knows a ton more are in the hands of wikileaks which were not released. US knows diplomatic cables are among them.

Less than a month later, in august,lo and behold a sex crime charge pops up in Sweden. The Swedish chief prosecutor drops most charges (the most serious ones that would get him jailed) the very next day.

...and here's the weird part of it all.. a few days later the Swedish Director of Public Prosecution takes charge of Assange's case and reinstates the charges. So.. seriously now, if the prosecutor drops charges and days later someone much higher than him on the food chain picks them up again... is this common in sweden? Its hard to google this stuff.

To me it sounds to be the equivalent of a US lower court case where the prosecutor drops charges only to have someone from the supreme court come down and take over.

We all know the drama that went on after that.. backs and forths by Assange and wikileaks getting DOS attacks, gov's denying access to the site, etc.... Assange saying that he was going to release much more serious documents and that he was being the target of a witch hunt,etc etc.

Before he releases the diplomatic cables he asks the US if there are any cables that would risk lives so he could avoid releasing them.. the US refused to even talk to him saying it'd be negotiating with a criminal.

He released them... and shortly thereafter Sweden.. for some obscure reason, went all out to get him into their court rooms.

So sorry but that only shows the Swedish gov. is caving in to powerful foreign pressure to incarcerate an individual on any type of crime they can put on his head. At first it was US pressure but after it .. it was pressure from probably multiple gov's that were affected.

Disgusting the whole mess of it.



anna-banana
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27 Feb 2011, 2:16 pm

you know Dantac, considering the fact that they still can't connect Assange to Manning, and with the recent news stories like the one with the Pakistani store clerk who managed to fool the CIA into believing that he was a major Taliban leader, then negotiating with them for months, or the story about the lousy hacker who sold his "security" system to the American military, I just can't believe that the American government would be competent or sophisticated enough to pull something like that off without slipping. I'd be really shocked if they did.

I realise that what you're saying makes sense, and one of those women allegedly had strong ties to the CIA so the whole thing definitely stinks, but Assange himself is not a crystal character either and he's lost a lot of his friends and supporters (The Guardian for one) because of his overly inflated ego. plus, Sweden is a truly feminist state if there ever was one, so they'll always take such allegations seriously. the pressure on the judge could just as well have come from some feminist-leftie lobby.


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Dantac
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27 Feb 2011, 5:34 pm

anna-banana wrote:
I just can't believe that the American government would be competent or sophisticated enough to pull something like that off without slipping. I'd be really shocked if they did.


lol.. yes recently the intelligence agencies have been making fool of themselves. However in this case its the diplomatic corps that are doing the pressuring. They are very good at it. I can easily imagine them telling the Swedish gov. : "hey, we need this guy behind bars & silenced... get him and we'll sweeten X trade deals... dont do it and we will increase the tax on your products and cease helping your interests in the UN/NATO" ... theres lots of ways they can put pressure on another nation.

This happens all the time btw, its simple international diplomacy. Money talks.

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Sweden is a truly feminist state if there ever was one, so they'll always take such allegations seriously. the pressure on the judge could just as well have come from some feminist-leftie lobby.


perhaps.. but has there ever been a similar sex case where a higher power takes over a case that had been dropped by lower courts?

In any case, both gov's are equally smeared in this situation. We'll see what happens. :)

btw is that you on the avatar pic ?



MotherKnowsBest
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27 Feb 2011, 5:51 pm

Dantac wrote:
Less than a month later, in august,lo and behold a sex crime charge pops up in Sweden. The Swedish chief prosecutor drops most charges (the most serious ones that would get him jailed) the very next day.

...and here's the weird part of it all.. a few days later the Swedish Director of Public Prosecution takes charge of Assange's case and reinstates the charges. So.. seriously now, if the prosecutor drops charges and days later someone much higher than him on the food chain picks them up again... is this common in sweden? Its hard to google this stuff.


That's not quite right. The alleged crimes took place in Stockholm. A duty prosecutor in Stockholm opened the case. The next day a more senior, regular prosecutor dismissed the charges. The women then hired a lawyer, who also happens to be a politician. He then approached the third prosecutor, who is the senior prosecutor in Göteborg at the other side of the country, who then decided to prosecute. :?

Personally I think this is more to do with the insane feminism that is rampant in this country which is trying to push the boundaries of what constitutes rape into the realms of crazy.



anna-banana
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27 Feb 2011, 5:53 pm

Dantac wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
I just can't believe that the American government would be competent or sophisticated enough to pull something like that off without slipping. I'd be really shocked if they did.


lol.. yes recently the intelligence agencies have been making fool of themselves. However in this case its the diplomatic corps that are doing the pressuring. They are very good at it. I can easily imagine them telling the Swedish gov. : "hey, we need this guy behind bars & silenced... get him and we'll sweeten X trade deals... dont do it and we will increase the tax on your products and cease helping your interests in the UN/NATO" ... theres lots of ways they can put pressure on another nation.

This happens all the time btw, its simple international diplomacy. Money talks.

Quote:
Sweden is a truly feminist state if there ever was one, so they'll always take such allegations seriously. the pressure on the judge could just as well have come from some feminist-leftie lobby.


perhaps.. but has there ever been a similar sex case where a higher power takes over a case that had been dropped by lower courts?


I'm not an expert on Swedish law. if it was that unusual, I guess we'd know about it though.

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btw is that you on the avatar pic ?


nope, that's Chan Marshall of Cat Power. I value my privacy ;)

MotherKnowsBest wrote:
Personally I think this is more to do with the insane feminism that is rampant in this country which is trying to push the boundaries of what constitutes rape into the realms of crazy.


as much as I sympathise with the feminist movement, I agree with you.


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ikorack
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28 Feb 2011, 10:11 am

ha you guess you would know.



Beauty_pact
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10 Mar 2011, 1:26 pm

Update from today:

The Swedish police's lead interrogator and one of the reporting women are friends since before and have political connection.



Swedish newspaper, but English translation provided:
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/avsloja ... ks-founder

The Police confirms the allegations (in Swedish):
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/avsloja ... ngekvinnan