Empathy vs. Conscience; NTs don't get it

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rabidmonkey4262
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06 Apr 2011, 10:25 am

The general population seems to equate impaired empathy with not having a conscience. It's annoying, to say the least. Has anyone else been affected by this misconception?

The definition of empathy is the ability to recognize the emotions of another person, and then to respond appropriately or "pick up" on the emotion. I'd say that this is impaired in people on the spectrum, no doubt about that. Like many aspies, I have a superficial knowledge of what people are feeling, but I can't say that I feel sad when I see other people feeling sad. I noticed alot of people were upset my the Japan disaster. I did not get upset by seeing the news, but I did donate money because I know the difference between right/wrong and good/bad, and I'm sure my moral code is more intact than that of most NTs. I tend to do practical things to help people, but I'm very bad at talking to people to make them feel better, or doing emotional gestures like hugs.

People often associate impaired empathy with sociopaths and serial killers. If you really think about it, these people probably do have empathy because they can recognize the feelings of their victims and feel happy or entertained by the misery they are instilling on their subjects. Michael Vick didn't just shoot his dogs. He electrocuted, hung, and beat his dogs to death. That's not even the full story. If you read the witness accounts he did some terrible things. He definitely lacked a conscience, but he needed a certain type of empathy to feel entertained by watching the suffering. On the contrary, people on the autism spectrum may not have an intuitive sense when it comes to empathy, but we don't go around torturing people because our conscience is still very strong. In addition, sociopaths can be manipulative and affable. People on the spectrum don't really have the natural capacity to do this because you need an innate social grace that many of us possess in limitation.


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LuxoJr
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06 Apr 2011, 10:49 am

Because people are expected to show their empathy if they've got it. If they don't, the assumption is that they are sociopaths.
I am similar. However, I did not donate money to Japan because they've got plenty of money. What they actually need more is actual food, but I can't do much about that because I live in America. I also seem to be rather unaffected by the disaster or when I see other bad things happen, unless it's something I care about.
If I don't genuinely care about something, I don't pretend to. So I am often viewed by others as being a sociopath myself. Though, this is not true because I care about my friends but I show it differently.
Most aspies and other people with impaired empathy show they care in very odd ways, usually seen by ignorant (ignorant not meaning stupid, but simply lacking the knowledge of the subject) NTs as being stupendously unusual. For example, people have accused others of taking advantage of me because I am always generous with my money. But they don't constantly ask me for money, when I see someone in need or at a loss, with not just money, I will help them. But I never comfort people or give them advice.
Aspies don't often like to do such things because it makes them uncomfortable. Therefore, they do the unexpected and are viewed differently.


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06 Apr 2011, 11:14 am

I understand about expressing my affection somewhat differently (than thought normal) at times. For example, my neighbour had cold hands so I boiled the kettle and filled a mug and gave it to her, she said "no thank you, I'm not thirsty.".

I'm a bit better now at expressing myself better. Although, this may be because counseling is something I want to do as a profession and I have developed a sense of empathy because I want (and like) to help people.


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rabidmonkey4262
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06 Apr 2011, 11:28 am

LuxoJr wrote:

Most aspies and other people with impaired empathy show they care in very odd ways, usually seen by ignorant (ignorant not meaning stupid, but simply lacking the knowledge of the subject) NTs as being stupendously unusual. For example, people have accused others of taking advantage of me because I am always generous with my money. But they don't constantly ask me for money, when I see someone in need or at a loss, with not just money, I will help them. But I never comfort people or give them advice.
Aspies don't often like to do such things because it makes them uncomfortable. Therefore, they do the unexpected and are viewed differently.


Yes, I read that Aspies tend to be over-altruistic in a practical sense. I know I do this, and it's an attempt to be friendly. I have been told that I'm "too nice." It's really just my way of expressing that I care; even though I might seem like an automaton, I actually do have a working conscience.


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ZeroGravitas
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06 Apr 2011, 11:37 am

I've given the last dollar in my pocket to homeless people, many times, without probably showing any other sign of empathy.

Him: "Can you spare some change, sir?"
Me: "[reach into wallet, hand him a wad of cash, continue on my way]"

I recall once, a guy stopped me on the street and asked if I could help him with buying baby formula and such. I went into a store, bought about $60 worth, handed it to him, and walked off while he tried to thank me:

"Here"
"thank you so [I continue on my way]"

It does annoy me a bit that NT's don't pattern match acts of kindness and empathy very well.


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07 Apr 2011, 1:55 am

ZeroGravitas wrote:
I've given the last dollar in my pocket to homeless people, many times, without probably showing any other sign of empathy.


I've done the same, I've never once turned down someone who asked for money or food.... I'm sure I've been taken a few times, but it's a small price to pay if it helps people who actually do need the cash.


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07 Apr 2011, 2:12 am

ZeroGravitas wrote:
I've given the last dollar in my pocket to homeless people, many times, without probably showing any other sign of empathy.

Him: "Can you spare some change, sir?"
Me: "[reach into wallet, hand him a wad of cash, continue on my way]"

I recall once, a guy stopped me on the street and asked if I could help him with buying baby formula and such. I went into a store, bought about $60 worth, handed it to him, and walked off while he tried to thank me:

"Here"
"thank you so [I continue on my way]"

It does annoy me a bit that NT's don't pattern match acts of kindness and empathy very well.


Ah that's very sweet of you. I know I would have never bought someone formula because it's so expensive. Maybe if I was rich, I'd might because it wouldn't matter how much I give away. The closest thing I have ever done was give away my baby formula that came in the mail as a sample. The other two I got I gave to baby resale shop where she handed them away for free. It was for anyone to take home with them.

However I have given away coins to anyone who asked for any change when I have too much in my purse. The most I have given away was five bucks but someone needed it for a bus fare. I have a feeling I got ripped off but oh well. That's why I hardly give out my money. Also the fact someone tried to sell me their food stamps and wanted forty bucks. Husband said it was a scam and illegal.



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07 Apr 2011, 7:57 am

For me, the biggest issue I have with lack of empathy is in the area of sickness and death. I really feel nothing and don't know how to act around sick people or at funerals. Funerals are so freaking confusing ... one minute everyone is crying and then an hour later, they are socializing like it's a Labor Day picnic. It makes zero sense to me and really goes back to some of my earliest memories. When I learned of my grandfather's death when I was 5, I simply looked up at my parents and said "So what else is new?" and went back to eating my breakfast. Even recentlly when my mother was diagnosed with cancer (she has since recovered), I didn't feel what I felt I should. No big emotions or anything. I thought "I should probably hug her" and did, but it was more of a social conditioning type of response. That's not to say I don't feel love for many people and would probably be absolutely devastated if something happened to my wife or kids. But for almost the rest of the world for me, learning of these things is information to be processed without emotional involvement.

Conversely, I have a huge conscience. I feel as if I've spent much of my entire life doing for others. I have raised a severely disabled stepson as if he's my own. I have worked as a police officer solving others people's problems for almost 20 years. And I would never do anything in my personal life that would cause pain to others.

As stated in the OP, conscience and empathy are two different ballgames.



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07 Apr 2011, 8:11 am

Catamount wrote:
I have worked as a police officer solving others people's problems for almost 20 years. And I would never do anything in my personal life that would cause pain to others.


When I think about it, a police officer is a great occupation for an aspie. I noticed the best cops do not get emotionally involved in what they're doing. That's how you get police brutality issues; it allows you to remain mentally sound under pressure. That would be good for any high-stress job like a paramedic or a doctor. This is especially true if you have a very strong moral code in addition to reduced empathy.

I also had similar experiences at funerals. I was devastated when my cousin died. She was 19 and we basically grew up together. I didn't know how to express how sad I was, so I came off as an automaton, just like any other day.


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Catamount
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07 Apr 2011, 8:26 am

Thanks, rabidmonkey. At first blush, many might think that a job with so much interaction with the public is all wrong for an Aspie, but being a police officer has worked out well for me for all the reasons you mentioned.



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07 Apr 2011, 8:45 am

I will help people if they need help but do struggle with the whole comforting them thing, although I try lol.



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07 Apr 2011, 9:15 am

I'm an Aspie who is also an INFP. My empathy scores are probably higher than most Aspies or men, but yet my systematizing scores are very high as well. Having asperger's doesn't necessarily mean one lacks empathy.

rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
I did not get upset by seeing the news, but I did donate money because I know the difference between right/wrong and good/bad, and I'm sure my moral code is more intact than that of most NTs..


Please explain how it is necessarily moral to "have" to give money to Japan or anybody else? (And I'm guesing somebody who choose not to donate their money to a specific cause is "immoral"?) Giving money to Japanese victims is a free choice, there is no good or bad about it in a generalized sense. If anything this shows a naive, inflexible rules-based moral sense, if you operate in this manner. People ordinarily give money or their time out of a sense of solidarity or compassion for other people, not becaues of some rule that says they should. Less pure motives of course would include social approval and so on, but mostly the motive is solidarity.

I suppose my asperger's mostly comes through in that I find social situations very draining (because i dedicate so much to consciously thinking about other peoples points of view and body language and so on), and I have sensory processing isues. But in terms of social understanding i'm not that atypical, I just don't have the energy for it. People just perceive me as odd, a bit of a dork... but not lacking empathy.



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07 Apr 2011, 11:21 am

Catamount wrote:
For me, the biggest issue I have with lack of empathy is in the area of sickness and death. I really feel nothing and don't know how to act around sick people or at funerals. Funerals are so freaking confusing ... one minute everyone is crying and then an hour later, they are socializing like it's a Labor Day picnic. It makes zero sense to me and really goes back to some of my earliest memories. When I learned of my grandfather's death when I was 5, I simply looked up at my parents and said "So what else is new?" and went back to eating my breakfast. Even recentlly when my mother was diagnosed with cancer (she has since recovered), I didn't feel what I felt I should. No big emotions or anything. I thought "I should probably hug her" and did, but it was more of a social conditioning type of response. That's not to say I don't feel love for many people and would probably be absolutely devastated if something happened to my wife or kids. But for almost the rest of the world for me, learning of these things is information to be processed without emotional involvement.

Conversely, I have a huge conscience. I feel as if I've spent much of my entire life doing for others. I have raised a severely disabled stepson as if he's my own. I have worked as a police officer solving others people's problems for almost 20 years. And I would never do anything in my personal life that would cause pain to others.

As stated in the OP, conscience and empathy are two different ballgames.


I have a similar issue. When I found out my mom had breast cancer (she's a survivor), I cried because her sister had recently died of ovarian cancer. After that, it didn't affect me that much. As for my late aunt, while she was alive and sick, I wasn't sure what to feel. It only hit me when she died.

On the other hand, if I feel I did something wrong, I do something about it.


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rabidmonkey4262
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07 Apr 2011, 1:20 pm

Daedelus1138 wrote:
I'm an Aspie who is also an INFP. My empathy scores are probably higher than most Aspies or men, but yet my systematizing scores are very high as well. Having asperger's doesn't necessarily mean one lacks empathy.

rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
I did not get upset by seeing the news, but I did donate money because I know the difference between right/wrong and good/bad, and I'm sure my moral code is more intact than that of most NTs..


Please explain how it is necessarily moral to "have" to give money to Japan or anybody else? (And I'm guesing somebody who choose not to donate their money to a specific cause is "immoral"?) Giving money to Japanese victims is a free choice, there is no good or bad about it in a generalized sense. If anything this shows a naive, inflexible rules-based moral sense, if you operate in this manner. People ordinarily give money or their time out of a sense of solidarity or compassion for other people, not becaues of some rule that says they should. Less pure motives of course would include social approval and so on, but mostly the motive is solidarity.


Just because something doesn't apply to you doesn't mean it's not true for the majority. For many aspies, there are challenges with emotional relatedness. Also, many of us adhere to a strict sense of morality. You may call it naive and inflexible, but I call it having a strong conscience. If I have money to spare, I'm going to use at least a fraction of it for the common good, your term for that is solidarity.


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Daedelus1138
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07 Apr 2011, 2:34 pm

rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
Just because something doesn't apply to you doesn't mean it's not true for the majority. For many aspies, there are challenges with emotional relatedness. Also, many of us adhere to a strict sense of morality. You may call it naive and inflexible, but I call it having a strong conscience. If I have money to spare, I'm going to use at least a fraction of it for the common good, your term for that is solidarity.


That's fine but... its annoying in Aspies, especially the ones that haven't really done any self-improvement or social therapy, when they apply that rigid morality to other people... and not to themselves, and conclude other people are somehow more dishonest or immoral than themselves. I used to be like this many years ago and i have had Aspie acquaintances do that too. Being around judgemental people is not very fun at all. It is here that seeing another person's point of view is important because it leads to understanding and compassion, definitely it is worth working on. If Aspies just took that keen sense of systematizing and analysis and realized that hey, human behavior is important too, they would make alot more progress, even if they will never be the greatest socialite.



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15 Jul 2016, 7:28 am

rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
The general population seems to equate impaired empathy with not having a conscience. It's annoying, to say the least. Has anyone else been affected by this misconception?

The definition of empathy is the ability to recognize the emotions of another person, and then to respond appropriately or "pick up" on the emotion. I'd say that this is impaired in people on the spectrum, no doubt about that. Like many aspies, I have a superficial knowledge of what people are feeling, but I can't say that I feel sad when I see other people feeling sad. I noticed alot of people were upset my the Japan disaster. I did not get upset by seeing the news, but I did donate money because I know the difference between right/wrong and good/bad, and I'm sure my moral code is more intact than that of most NTs. I tend to do practical things to help people, but I'm very bad at talking to people to make them feel better, or doing emotional gestures like hugs.

People often associate impaired empathy with sociopaths and serial killers. If you really think about it, these people probably do have empathy because they can recognize the feelings of their victims and feel happy or entertained by the misery they are instilling on their subjects. Michael Vick didn't just shoot his dogs. He electrocuted, hung, and beat his dogs to death. That's not even the full story. If you read the witness accounts he did some terrible things. He definitely lacked a conscience, but he needed a certain type of empathy to feel entertained by watching the suffering. On the contrary, people on the autism spectrum may not have an intuitive sense when it comes to empathy, but we don't go around torturing people because our conscience is still very strong. In addition, sociopaths can be manipulative and affable. People on the spectrum don't really have the natural capacity to do this because you need an innate social grace that many of us possess in limitation.


Some NTs do get it: Simon Baron-Cohen's 'Zero Degrees of Empathy' implies that Aspies and sociopaths are opposites. Aspies lack cognitive empathy (i.e. a sense of what someone else is feeling) but not affective empathy (wanting that person to be well) whereas sociopaths are the other way around. Sociopaths know how people feel, and which words to use to make them feel good, but don't care how they feel and don't mean what they say - hence the way they can callously manipulate people. Baron-Cohen clearly states that Aspies have an intact moral compass.

In Immanuel Kant's 'Of the Attributes of the Beautiful and Sublime in Man in General', he separates out the sublimity of ethical action from any principles motivated by sympathy, compassion, or even kindness. According to Kant, helping someone because you feel emotionally sorry for them doesn't make you truly virtuous.


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