Finland and the True Finns

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The eurosceptic protest parties are all very different.

UKIP is centre-right, a mixture of libertarian and social conservative, they are EU withdrawalist.
DF (in Denmark) is national conservative but also quite social democratic, they are also EU withdrawalist.
PVV (in the Netherlands) is national liberal and culturally conservative but the main plank of their manifesto is their anti-Islamism. They are also EU-withdrawalist.
The True Finns are rather left-wing in economic policy but in most other areas are quite like UKIP. They are also EU-withdrawalist.

The point is that they are 'national independence' protest movements. There are very few libertarian-themed parties in Europe that are big enough, really. UKIP is one of them.

Not this government, but it does open the door for future governments that want to engage in 1970s style leftwing nationalism. There are, after all, Eurosceptics on the far left fringe as well.

This is correct. The French and swedish Left both voted down the EU constitution in referenda. The Eu then went on the implement more or less the same thing under a different name.

True; a lot of eurosceptics in Europe are actually left-wing. The Socialist Party in Denmark is one of them, plus the former June Movement was centre-left.

also our government consist of an alliance across the center, the lines really are blurred, almost to the point where they lose meaning.

Labour in the 70's and before was opposed to the EU whereas the Tories were the europhiles. Now both Labour and the Tories are more or less pro EU. Personally i favor heavily reforming the EU to make it more accountable rather than withdrawal.

When the Irish voted 'no' to the Lisbon Treaty, they simply made them vote again. The EU has a record for the contempt of democracy.

So were the Maltese Labour Party.

I'd do away with the commission and give the European Parliament all its powers. Then it would be accountable.

I don't think the people who run the EU want it to be democratic, though. That's the whole point. So I favour withdrawal.

Actually historically its the British government who have been the main people arguing against democracy within the EU. The French and Germans wanted a democratic united states of europe. I'd be happy with that also.

It won't happen now, because the people who matter (the French, the Germans and other European countries) are voting for eurosceptic parties in large numbers. They're asking for a return to a Europe of nations.

I don't see United States of Europe parties being especially popular in the current climate, do you? At least if there were to be such a grouping set up, the electorate could be honest and treat it with the contempt it deserves by not voting for a party with such a platform.

I think the main reason for the growth of the hard right is an increase in scapegoating of immigrants as a malicious reaction to the credit crunch. Once the Economy takes off again that will all die down. Anyhow i'm not bothered about what anyone else is doing. I'm a Socialist and internationalist who's in favour of a democratic Europe and i hope to bring one about in some distant mythical political climate. It's a bit like waiting for UKIP to gain power in westminster. You wait and wait and it never happens but you support it anyway because that's what you believe in.

I'm sad it has come to this. I'm not surprised, nor worried, really. To everything there is a season.

At some point, people living in welfare states become so accustomed to being provided for they start thinking the government should do everything for them. When it doesn't (it couldn't possibly), they need to blame someone, and right now the easiest victims just happen to be immigrants and third-world citizens.

I don't know what comes next. If Finland becomes another North Korea and I make it out in time, I wouldn't mind patrolling the border with a sniper rifle to make sure none of those dimwits (not talking about you, Tequila ) who made it what it is make it out alive.

edit: ^ I agree that it's partly the recession, but I think it's also a general lack of dignity. People have just gotten too lazy to think ahead.

Last edited by chinatown on 18 Apr 2011, 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The real criminals are the capitalists who created the housing bubble. The people are having to bare the heavy load of paying back a deficit that they didn't create.