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CanyonWind
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18 Sep 2006, 5:30 am

Maybe those other people aren't so shallow, and maybe I'm not so profound. I'm not sure.

I remember years ago I was trying to figure out why a friend of mine had so much sucess with women and I had none. "Just talk about normal everyday things," he told me. I figured that meant chinese poetry.

I've tried. A few weeks ago I tried to talk about the weather with some guy I just met and ended up in a monologe about tree rings and historical climate patterns. But maybe there's something going on a whole lot different than how it looks.

I think of that goofy japanese tea ceremony considered so profound that people spend their lives mastering it. You make a pot of tea, you drink the tea, then you wash the dishes. Is the japanese tradition dumb and shallow, or is there something going on, something deep, that I could be missing because of the limits of my thought and perception. Not something to be contemptuously imitated, something to be understood that could maybe enrich my own life.

I've run into the concept here and there. There's a story from china or japan, I can't remember which. The sage who lives back in the woods has a visitor who tells him, "Theres a guy whose spiritual powers are so great he can perform miracles. He can stand on one side of the river with a brush and somebody stands across the river holding a blank piece of paper. When he moves the brush, words appear on the paper across the river."

The sage is unimpressed. "I have a greater miracle," he says, "When I get hungry I eat. When I get tired I sleep."

Maybe one thing can be just as profound as another. Maybe just because my interests are obscure, that doesn't make them better.

There have been moments I understood. Years ago, with the indians.

Marlon Strikes with a Gun took me to visit his uncle, an old man they called Tiny. He was sitting at the kitchen table with his wife, drinking coffee. Marlon told him I was his friend, and Tiny looked up at me and nodded. "I'll get you a chair," he said. He stood, and with great effort shuffled across the room, lifted the chair that stood beside the wall, and slowly carried it back and placed it by the table.

I stood and watched. With his actions, the old man spoke without words in language deeper than words. I didn't want to interrupt him or cheapen what he was expressing. Without pretense, he was going to great effort to make this visitor feel included among the people in his home. We sat at the kitchen table drinking coffee and talking of the things that fill the hours of a human life; no sub-atomic particles or forgotten poets. Only the contact of human spirits sharing moments together.

I have wandered much since then, found little of the same; but maybe it's around me, like the air that I ignore, and I'm too shallow and preoccupied to see it.


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GreyArea
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18 Sep 2006, 8:01 am

CanyonWind wrote:
I think of that goofy japanese tea ceremony considered so profound that people spend their lives mastering it. You make a pot of tea, you drink the tea, then you wash the dishes. Is the japanese tradition dumb and shallow, or is there something going on, something deep, that I could be missing because of the limits of my thought and perception. Not something to be contemptuously imitated, something to be understood that could maybe enrich my own life.



This is such a good example of your popint, I think.

The things which are important are not the acts, but the intentions, the history, the meaning bhind those acts. The Tea Ceremony is all about respect. Very little to do with tea! Have you read Shogun? There is a fantastic description of the ceremony in there which makes so much sence of this. It is also a brilliant read, I would reccomend it.

Is it like the changing of the guard at Buckingham palace, all pomp and ceremony where all that is actually needed is for one bunch of chaps to go off duty while another bunch get to work.....

I love your example of the old chap fetching a chair: He was not just getting you a thing to sit on, he was honoring you with his actions, respectuflly inviting you to his table, and letting you know of his respect too. It would have been so easy for him to say "Pull up a chair and join us - there is one over there". And you would have felt no less welcome at his table, but his way he showed you repect which that would not have.

The problem with small talk is that it is often just empty flapping of the chin! Wasted air in a pointless filling of too much time. But often, when you least expect it, it becomes so much more. Meeting a new friend, potential partner, filling the time with polite chat about nothing in particular, but all the time the two of you bonding - glimpsing the twincle in an eye, or the slight shift the chair marginally closer... And there are no signs to tell you which is which, other than social convention, the feeling of the conversation - and aren't these often the blind spots which so many of us suffer from?

I enjoyed your posting, it was so well written, and gave me much to think about. Cheers! :D

I hate small talk, always have, or thought I did. Perhaps it is a lot bigger after all, in the right circumstances!


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krex
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18 Sep 2006, 1:47 pm

I always thought small talk was kind of like verbally shaking hands to see if the other person had a weapon in their hand....a few minutes of small talk can sometimes disclose a lot of unintended information about the person....certainly would uncover schizophrinia...."Sure is hot...."..."yes,the alians are directing a lazer beam into my brain to keep me cool while the rest of humainty is slowly being dehydrated into dust"....vs..."Global warming....that damn Bush"....vs...."sure is"....

The part of "small talk" I dislike is when I am reading and interupted.....when the person discloses some personal information and I have no idea what I am supposed to respond(cerimony might cure this)...conversation is about some popular TV show and I watch History channel,TLC....I am constantly discloseing that I am "not in the loop"...or worse,when it devolves into a "gossip session" which tends to be cruel by its very nature...(worse is when I join in ...always feel like I need a shower afterwards)
As far as your experience with "Native Americans"....Perhaps it had something to do with your own innate respect for the culture?Since childhood,I have had a bias towards Native Americans>I felt their culture and spirituality was more intune with my own feelings,to the point of "idealizing" them.I dated someone who grew up on a reservation in MN and he really resented my "idealizing"...it was confusing as hell to me but I think his point was that it didnt matter if I was stereotyping "positively" but that I was stereotyping at all.....(I am still trying to work out my feelings about this)


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Fraya
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18 Sep 2006, 1:55 pm

Yeah you shouldnt stereotype.. but you have to ask yourself why it bothers him.

Answering that question will probably reveal that he harbors a negative stereotype towards his own culture himself.

Like you I also admire the native american culture and loved hearing the ancient fables my grandfather would tell me around the campfire (He was full blooded cherokee Im only 1/4).

Unfortunately he died of old age when I was 6 so I dont recall most of them and wont get to hear any more.


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krex
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18 Sep 2006, 2:47 pm

Yes,Fraya....he had European American father and Native American mother and he did have some issues with his heritage on both sides.Maybe he felt I only liked him because he was NA?(which was not true,as I didnt even know when I first liked him).He may have been responding to my "aspie" honestness more then my admiration for his heritage?I really never know when I am saying something offensive....he isnt the irst person to be offended by me(but his family was very nice and excepting of me....seemed to appriciate my interest in their culture....)


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Fraya
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18 Sep 2006, 3:23 pm

Then dont worry about it. His family is a better representation of how acceptable your affection towards his culture is.

Most people would be flattered and happy if someone takes an interest in their heritage and culture.

His problem was just that.. his problem not yours or anything you were doing wrong.


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sociable_hermit
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18 Sep 2006, 3:39 pm

There can be an enormous number of coded messages in small talk. I'm getting better at understanding, but very often I'll only realise what was really meant 10 minutes after the other person walked away. Of course, it's quite possible that there are other things I don't 'get' at all. The other trouble is that, since I've become aware of these hidden meanings, I use up far too much brain-power analysing the conversation rather than participating in it. The whole concept that I might be missing out on something and could therefore appear stupid tends to stress me out, to the point where I'm nervous and preoccupied and then I DO miss things and act stupid!

So.. worrying about it doesn't always help. Tread with caution along this newly-found path.


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Dalebert
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18 Sep 2006, 3:50 pm

OMG! Aspies in China must go nuts!



Fraya
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18 Sep 2006, 4:15 pm

Its near impossible to try to learn the little hidden meanings from participating in the conversation.. Ive always had to watch others and try to notice things that seemed "odd" then Id analyze it and figure it out (or ask an NT friend) then try to watch for it in my own conversations. Its much easier to react with a preplanned response than it is to try to understand it, figure out the appropriate response, and give it within the expected timeframe all while trying to keep up with the conversation.

After a while those reactions become habitual and dont require much thought and you can move on to finding and learning new ones.

The downside is that sometimes you get a strange prompt that seems similar so you give the response you had planned but it turns out to have been the incorrect answer.

But its still better to be right a lot and wrong sometimes than always confused and oblivious (appearing to be ignoring their signals to them).


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mysteriouslyabsent
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18 Sep 2006, 6:08 pm

Generally NTs find complete silence with someone else next to them uncomfortable, it's also a sign that you are ignoring them and therefore don't like them or that we think we are too good to talk to them. They seem to get a little paranoid about crap like that for some reason, inventing all kinds of stuff in their mind and blowing it way out of proportion, and they think WE are the crazy ones? :lol:

yeah so anyway small talk is just a way of making them feel comfortable, that you dont hate them and that you acknowledge their (pitiful :twisted: ) existence.

You see for an NTs, especially the females, communication and being acknowledged/recognised/noticed is almost as important as breathing, not being able to talk is worse than a death sentence for them. Think about when a woman gets really pissed off, what does she do that she thinks will punish you the most? That's right, the silent treatment!

Conversely if you really want to drive your (NT) girlfriend nuts, then stop talking to her, she will turn ultra paranoid and start begging you to know what the problem is thinking she has really pissed you off or something.

To be honest it's actually not all THAT much effort, especially if, like most NTs, they love talking, you only actually need to drop in a couple of words to get them started then nod occaisionally and they will do most of the talking, in fact they will think you are listening and actually care, so they will like you a lot.



Dalebert
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19 Sep 2006, 9:16 pm

mysteriouslyabsent wrote:
Conversely if you really want to drive your (NT) girlfriend nuts, then stop talking to her, she will turn ultra paranoid and start begging you to know what the problem is thinking she has really pissed you off or something.


And hence the dreaded question, at least dreaded by NT guys: "What are you thinking about?"

And of course that leaves NT guys in a pickle because they're not thinking about anything in particular, which is a strange concept for girls.

I on the other hand, am constantly thinking but that's because I have ADHD and my brain is always in overdrive. I want pills.
:x