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MrXxx
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06 Dec 2011, 3:16 am

snapcap wrote:

mrXxx wrote:
If my own kid did that on a bus, I wouldn't care if someone of another race, sat down next to him and BEAT on him. That is not how you deal with it. It is uncivilized in any setting, and unacceptable for any reason. There are no "reasons" good enough for that. Only excuses.


If I was on that bus with my kid, and you let that happen to your kid, I'd say to my kid "See, that's why we don't go to their house."


Oh, I was going to just let this go, but no way no how. You've got a lot of damned nerve to assume I would LET that happen to my own kid. What the hell are you thinking making that kind of assumption about me? That is NOT what I meant at all. Use your damned head. I'm sorry for getting angry, but insinuating this kind of thing about my parenting and love for my children really crosses a line you should NEVER cross with me. :evil:

I did NOT say I would LET that happen to my child. I said, if IT HAPPENED, I would not support my child reacting in that way. Which brings me to your final comments, in which you actually DID make some sense.


snapcap wrote:
Racism isn't a good thing, but it's not going to go away just by shutting up about it. If it could happen that way, you better take out everything that has the slightest bit of race in it, including the teachings of MLK.


Not this part. This is just plain silly.

snapcap wrote:
I never knew about racism until I was taught incessantly about MLK and the Civil Rights movement during Black History Month. I was only 6 years old. I can't say it is a healthy thing to open kids minds to at that age.


I've got news for you. I was THREE years old when Dr. King gave his "I Have a Dream" speech. I remember it. I remember that, the Vietnam war, all the protesting, the Kent State shooting of four students, the assassination of King and Bobby Kennedy. I even saw Jack Ruby kill Oswald on live TV. I remember the entire era very well even though I was fairly young. You don't live through all that and not remember it. I knew all about racism practically from the day I was able to speak. You couldn't NOT know about it then. I made damned sure my own kids knew as much as I did before they ever heard about it in school. I can say I believe it is a very healthy thing to make your kids aware of what the world is really like. It only does them a disservice not to.

I didn't just grow up learning about King either, I also learned about Ghandi. I had grandparents and cousins who were ALL racist. My family was the ONLY family on both sides of our extended families, who was not racist. I grew up surrounded by racism with parents who were not, and taught me right from wrong. And they managed to do it in spite of all the racism in both of their families. One of my relatives (very close to me too) was an avowed Hitler supporter.

There really isn't anything you could teach me about racism and/or tolerance that I didn't already learn decades ago.

snapcap wrote:
You're separating people even more by censoring what they think. How can people strive to be united if they can't even get out their feelings, even in the most crude form?


I agree with the first part, but this isn't about censorship. I know you won't agree with this, and that's just too bad. I am not one who agrees that Neo Nazi's should just be allowed to say whatever they want to. I am not one who agrees that freedom of speech is absolute. It's the law where I live, within very strict limits (as in there isn't much you can't say), and I don't agree with the law. I think freedom of speech is far too often pushed way beyond the limits of its intention.

Now, back to the scenario I gave of my son. I was referring to a scenario exactly like this one. Where, if I saw him AFTER THE FACT, in a video like this one, behaving like that after being beaten by a man of any race, I would not support his reactions. Do you get it now?

I wouldn't because I live by, and teach my kids to live by, the same things MLK and Ghandi taught. I teach them NOT to be like that no matter WHAT anyone says or does to them. I teach them to hold their tongues and walk away. BUT, I also teach them to speak out against such attitudes and abusive speech.

People like that may have the right to be stupid, and say whatever is on their minds, PEACEFULLY, but that is not what that woman is doing. You may wish that more of the others on the bus did speak up, and one did, but if it had been allowed to continue, it may very well have ended up in a really bad situation. She was essentially inciting everyone there to argue with her, which could have EASILY erupted into a physical fight, endangering her own child. Stupid woman! As far as I'm concerned she DID endanger that child, and it probably would be best for the child to be taken from her for that reason. At least the child would probably end up with someone who would not teach it to hate that way.


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06 Dec 2011, 3:19 am

MrXxx wrote:
I think freedom of speech is far too often pushed way beyond the limits of its intention.


Free speech literally means just that. If you can't get your head around that, then what you're asking for isn't free speech.



MrXxx
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06 Dec 2011, 3:23 am

Tequila wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
I think freedom of speech is far too often pushed way beyond the limits of its intention.


Free speech literally means just that. If you can't get your head around that, then what you're asking for isn't free speech.


Free speech doesn't exist without limitations. It never has anywhere at any time in history. There have always been limitations. There always will be. The only really constructive arguments about it have always been about what those limitations should be.

snapcap wrote:
If she was on a stage telling jokes and said something racist , should she be charged then?


That isn't even a close comparison. At a performance everyone present is there by choice. Anyone can get up and leave any time they want to. Not on a tram. They're stuck with her through no fault of their own.


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06 Dec 2011, 3:33 am

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You really confuse me. On the one hand you say that shutting up about it doesn't solve anything, yet on the other you seem to feel as if little if anything should be done about it. Society spoke. Society sent her the message that this is not acceptable.


Let people be free to express themselves in front of other people. Their hatred will melt over time if they could talk to eat other without the fear of reprisal, physical or penal. But even then a small amount will still exist, just because people aren't stupid enough to not see that there are physical differences between people of different races. I don't know how the one person that spoke to her could be considered society, but it still doesn't mean she should have been put in jail, with a racial charge on her record.

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I get that you think the message was extreme. I don't agree. It is that kind of attitude and behavior that leads to far worse. It won't stop until people like her get the message that it will not be tolerated.


I think you meant "wasn't exetreme". I don't think mouthing off isn't extreme, it is in bad taste, but not extreme. Racism is natural for people to feel, just like it's natural for people to pick on other people for other differences besides race, like sex, disabilities, baldness, too much hair, color of hair. Best way to dispel someone's critical feelings is to conversate back to them in a way that corrects there stance. But if they get physical, then let book be thrown at them. It may not happen right away, but the bad feelings will subside.

Quote:
Slavery didn't end in this country because people frowned at it. It didn't end because bigots were tossed off of trains. It ended when society stood up and said "No more. And we are willing to do whatever it takes to stop it." If we hadn't had the civil war, do you honestly think it would have ended by now anyway? If you do think so, then how do you explain Apartheid having lasted as long as it did?


That is a little different than saying words to someone. I don't know how you can compare that to slavery. So if we let people say things uncensored, the result will be slavery again?

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There really IS evil in this world. Evil that cannot be dealt with in any less than harsh manners.


Well, I think people are capable of bad acts, but I don't believe in evil. Anyways, we are talking about some words, not genocide.

Quote:
Should they have given her a "time out," perhaps? Sorry, that is a little facetious, but all I'm hearing so far is what you don't like about how it was handled. I'm not hearing any solutions.


My stance is to let them voice their feelings, even if they are stupid, how can they get any better if they don't get the oppurtunity to challenge themselves. As far as I'm concerned, the people on the bus really did her a disservice by not really telling her in their way, how she was wrong. The person that I didn't hear wasn't enough. Instead, they observe a law that will ultimately keep them divisive in the end. My solution isn't an end all solution, and there's no point in finding that unless everyone became the same race.



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06 Dec 2011, 3:42 am

MrXxx wrote:
snapcap wrote:

mrXxx wrote:
If my own kid did that on a bus, I wouldn't care if someone of another race, sat down next to him and BEAT on him. That is not how you deal with it. It is uncivilized in any setting, and unacceptable for any reason. There are no "reasons" good enough for that. Only excuses.


If I was on that bus with my kid, and you let that happen to your kid, I'd say to my kid "See, that's why we don't go to their house."


Oh, I was going to just let this go, but no way no how. You've got a lot of damned nerve to assume I would LET that happen to my own kid. What the hell are you thinking making that kind of assumption about me? That is NOT what I meant at all. Use your damned head. I'm sorry for getting angry, but insinuating this kind of thing about my parenting and love for my children really crosses a line you should NEVER cross with me. :evil:


If your kid did that on the bus, meaning talk like that women did, you wouldn't even help him out if another person started beating him for say that. And that is how you would handle it, because racism is unacceptable in any form.

???

That's how I read it, I don't know if that was what you meant. Maybe you should reread it.

BTW, I don't believe in absolute freedom of speech.



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06 Dec 2011, 12:10 pm

snapcap wrote:
Quote:
You really confuse me. On the one hand you say that shutting up about it doesn't solve anything, yet on the other you seem to feel as if little if anything should be done about it. Society spoke. Society sent her the message that this is not acceptable.


Let people be free to express themselves in front of other people. Their hatred will melt over time if they could talk to eat other without the fear of reprisal, physical or penal. But even then a small amount will still exist, just because people aren't stupid enough to not see that there are physical differences between people of different races. I don't know how the one person that spoke to her could be considered society, but it still doesn't mean she should have been put in jail, with a racial charge on her record.


We'll probably have to just agree to disagree on this point. Part of the problem here is with using a single incident as an example for sweeping statements of policy. That almost always poses problems. In part because things are said on both sides with regard to the incident itself, and in part because other things are said about bigger issues. It's too easy for either side of the debate to confuse points about the smaller and bigger issues from the opposing view. I think some of that is happening here, so some misunderstanding is occurring.

In reality, we may agree more than either of us has yet realized.

snapcap wrote:
Quote:
I get that you think the message was extreme. I don't agree. It is that kind of attitude and behavior that leads to far worse. It won't stop until people like her get the message that it will not be tolerated.


I think you meant "wasn't exetreme". I don't think mouthing off isn't extreme, it is in bad taste, but not extreme. Racism is natural for people to feel, just like it's natural for people to pick on other people for other differences besides race, like sex, disabilities, baldness, too much hair, color of hair. Best way to dispel someone's critical feelings is to conversate back to them in a way that corrects there stance. But if they get physical, then let book be thrown at them. It may not happen right away, but the bad feelings will subside.


I meant "was," not "wasn't," but the confusion isn't over that. "The message" I referred to was not her message. It was meant to refer to the message sent to her.

snapcap wrote:
Quote:
Slavery didn't end in this country because people frowned at it. It didn't end because bigots were tossed off of trains. It ended when society stood up and said "No more. And we are willing to do whatever it takes to stop it." If we hadn't had the civil war, do you honestly think it would have ended by now anyway? If you do think so, then how do you explain Apartheid having lasted as long as it did?


That is a little different than saying words to someone. I don't know how you can compare that to slavery. So if we let people say things uncensored, the result will be slavery again?


True. This is where confusing the bigger and smaller pictures comes in. To get into debating what one has to do with the other is a whole different debate all on its own. I doubt either of us has time for that. I know I don't right this moment. It would be an interesting discussion though. Perhaps another time.

snapcap wrote:
Quote:
There really IS evil in this world. Evil that cannot be dealt with in any less than harsh manners.


Well, I think people are capable of bad acts, but I don't believe in evil. Anyways, we are talking about some words, not genocide.


We do not agree on the point of evil. No question. Words vs. genocide? Agreed. Not the same, but debatable in terms of causation effects. Another issue probably best saved for another time.

snapcap wrote:
Quote:
Should they have given her a "time out," perhaps? Sorry, that is a little facetious, but all I'm hearing so far is what you don't like about how it was handled. I'm not hearing any solutions.


My stance is to let them voice their feelings, even if they are stupid, how can they get any better if they don't get the oppurtunity to challenge themselves. As far as I'm concerned, the people on the bus really did her a disservice by not really telling her in their way, how she was wrong. The person that I didn't hear wasn't enough. Instead, they observe a law that will ultimately keep them divisive in the end. My solution isn't an end all solution, and there's no point in finding that unless everyone became the same race.


This is but one incident. I do think that every incident must be evaluated on its own merits or lack thereof. In this particular case, I don't have a problem with her being charged. As I've already said, I think what she did went beyond freedom of speech. Let's just leave that as is since we're not likely to agree about that anyway.

snapcap wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
snapcap wrote:

mrXxx wrote:
If my own kid did that on a bus, I wouldn't care if someone of another race, sat down next to him and BEAT on him. That is not how you deal with it. It is uncivilized in any setting, and unacceptable for any reason. There are no "reasons" good enough for that. Only excuses.


If I was on that bus with my kid, and you let that happen to your kid, I'd say to my kid "See, that's why we don't go to their house."


Oh, I was going to just let this go, but no way no how. You've got a lot of damned nerve to assume I would LET that happen to my own kid. What the hell are you thinking making that kind of assumption about me? That is NOT what I meant at all. Use your damned head. I'm sorry for getting angry, but insinuating this kind of thing about my parenting and love for my children really crosses a line you should NEVER cross with me. :evil:


If your kid did that on the bus, meaning talk like that women did, you wouldn't even help him out if another person started beating him for say that. And that is how you would handle it, because racism is unacceptable in any form.

???

That's how I read it, I don't know if that was what you meant. Maybe you should reread it.


I don't need to reread it because I know exactly what I meant, but it looks like I may need to rewrite it to be a bit more clear.

Try and envision this: I find out about what happened with my son the same way I found out about this incident. From a video posted on the Internet. In others words, I wasn't there. The only added portion is that he would have been beaten before beginning an identical tirade. Not "being beaten for saying things," but spewing this tirade because of being beaten. (Other way around)

Does it make more sense now?

snapcap wrote:
BTW, I don't believe in absolute freedom of speech.


I wasn't sure, but I didn't think so. You don't sound unreasonable to me. I wouldn't be here still trying to clarify anything if I thought you were.

Sorry for jumping on you earlier. That particular subject is a hell of a hot button for me. Come to think of it, I never realized that until now. I've never felt as if my parental instincts were challenged before. Doesn't sound like you meant it though. Just a misunderstanding. It happens. :shrug:


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snapcap
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06 Dec 2011, 12:33 pm

Quote:
This is but one incident. I do think that every incident must be evaluated on its own merits or lack thereof. In this particular case, I don't have a problem with her being charged. As I've already said, I think what she did went beyond freedom of speech. Let's just leave that as is since we're not likely to agree about that anyway.


I don't know where you are from, but here in the US, laws against speech generally don't fly, and for good reason. One of the biggest challengers to free speech right now is the Westboro Baptist Church, and even though they say some extremely inflammatory things right in people's faces during a time when they are very vulnerable, people are able to keep their cool without any laws behind them saying that the WBC are committing a hate crime and will immediately go to jail. Are they gaining strength because of it? No. They are falling apart. People are defecting quicker than they can gain members. There presence is starting to become a non-event. They were here by where I live not too long ago, and I'm just finding out about it. When Phelps dies, I don't see them lasting much longer because Shirley will take over, and she's worse than her father. No one will stand for it. Hate has a way of putting itself out. Any law dictating how hate is expressed vocally mishandles that process.

I respect your opinion to what the law should be, but I'll never respect the law.



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06 Dec 2011, 3:17 pm

Looking it all over, it's pretty obvious we disagree on this particular incident. I'm sure we would disagree on other individual incidents as well, but have a feeling we would agree on some others. Your "line in the sand" is probably a little different than where I would put it in certain places, and maybe in about the same pace in others, depending on the particulars of any given circumstance.

In some ways we've been arguing the law, or overall picture. In others we've been arguing this particular incident. Personally, I don't think any broad sweeping law should be in place that draws "hard lines" on what ought to be allowed, not allowed, done or not done in every circumstance. I don't believe we disagree on that point. If there is no such "hard law," and I do not think there should be, judgment or lack thereof HAS to be determined based on individual incidents, and surrounding circumstances. But, how much of the surrounding circumstances to we need to know? That's obviously going to vary from person to person, which is exactly what's happened here.

It is utterly impossible for all people to agree on all things with respect to any given incident. There are just far too many of us, with far too diverse belief systems and values. And that's what the society we live in is based on. The freedom to agree or disagree.

I live in the U.S. by the way. I also don't respect every law we have here. Some yes, some no. But as long as the law doesn't require me to violate my own principles, I'll abide by it even if I don't respect it. We could go on forever about this, or we could just agree to disagree about this particular incident. I can't say what, in regard to the bigger picture, other than what I've already stated, we might agree or disagree on, because we haven't gotten that deep into the conversation. I would get deeper into it if I didn't need to move on to other things for the moment.

For now we'll just have to leave it at that.


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07 Dec 2011, 1:31 pm

OK, fair enough, Emma West is arrested and will probably be prosecuted for her tirade.

But the gang of Somali Muslim women who got paralytic on alcohol and attacked a white local woman in the head whilst screaming "kill the white b***h" have walked entirely free from court after being told that "they weren't used to drinking because they're Muslims".

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1fsJMILCg

Please, let's talk about racism and the perverse contradictory approaches in the justice system.

It can't be because they're Muslims, can it, and Muslims are a Specially Protected Group Above All Legal Criticism, can it?

So please, let's talk about racism and "kill the white b***h".



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07 Dec 2011, 1:50 pm

Tequila wrote:
walked entirely free from court after being told that "they weren't used to drinking because they're Muslims".
Not entirely free:
The Daily Mail wrote:
The four women, who all live in Leicester, were each sentenced to six-month jail terms, suspended for 12 months, at Leicester Crown Court last month.

Hibo Maxamed also received a four-month curfew between 9pm and 6am, while the others were ordered to carry out 150 hours of unpaid work.

Judge Brown said that ‘those who knock someone to the floor and kick them in the head can expect to go inside’.

But he said he accepted the women may have felt they were the victims of unreasonable force from Mr Moore as he tried to defend his girlfriend, and handed the defendants a suspended sentence.

Quote:
Please, let's talk about racism and the perverse contradictory approaches in the justice system.
When that woman on the tram is sentenced - if indeed she is - then we'll have a better idea of the balance or lack of it.


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07 Dec 2011, 1:52 pm

Well, that's alright isn't it Cornflake?

Please tell me what would have happened had a gang of white male skinheads attacked a lone Muslim woman dressed in a black tarpaulin?



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07 Dec 2011, 3:04 pm

Tequila wrote:
OK, fair enough, Emma West is arrested and will probably be prosecuted for her tirade.

But the gang of Somali Muslim women who got paralytic on alcohol and attacked a white local woman in the head whilst screaming "kill the white b***h" have walked entirely free from court after being told that "they weren't used to drinking because they're Muslims".

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1fsJMILCg

Please, let's talk about racism and the perverse contradictory approaches in the justice system.

It can't be because they're Muslims, can it, and Muslims are a Specially Protected Group Above All Legal Criticism, can it?

So please, let's talk about racism and "kill the white b***h".


Every situation has to be evaluated on its own merits. It's just not fair, or right to simply create one broad sweeping policy that works for every situation. Nobody here is saying that what should or should not be done in this tram situation is how ALL comparable situations should be handled.

Of course that would be wrong.

Not to mention that you're bringing up a situation that happened in an entirely different country, under entirely different circumstances. Apples and oranges. Practically nothing is the same in Somalia. Many things happen in some places that never or seldom happen in others, because of vast differences in cultures and historical events. The people involved are a completely different set of people, including those involved in the incident and those who decided what should or should not be done about it.

What applies in one situation may or may not apply to another totally separate one. To make statements about one and apply them to another unrelated one, isn't right.

If we were to do that, we may as well apply the circumstances from one legal case to all similar legal cases. There are many good reasons we don't do that.


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07 Dec 2011, 3:07 pm

Correction: Okay, I missed that it didn't happen in Somalia, but there are still cultural differences that apply, and it's still a totally separate incident.


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07 Dec 2011, 3:13 pm

Is it racist not to hold other races to the same bar as wh***y?