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VMSmith
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04 Dec 2011, 7:31 pm

NoPast wrote:
the are 2 types of socialism

1)State socialism(state ownership of the means of productions,strong central planning)
2)Libertarian socialism/Anarchism (workers ownership of the means of productions,democracy extended to workplace,a system that empathizes collaboration over competition instead of the actual rat race )

the former(1)has always been source of brutal dictatorships,the latter(2) would drastically increase the living standard for the vast majority of world population but requires a cultural and psychological revolution and the collapse of capitalism and I can't see how this can happen in the near future


the 1st isnt socialism. it sounds more like stalinism but i wouldnt call it real socialism. it is the opposite of socialism. what marx said- "If this is Marxism, then I'm not a Marxist". they were state capitalist dictatorships.



Awesomelyglorious
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04 Dec 2011, 8:04 pm

I hope all the socialists here recognize that *NOBODY* who hasn't already been drinking the kool-aid is going to call state-run systems that include stated ideals of egalitarianism, to be "state capitalist". I mean, the very term only works if you've accepted certain bits of socialist analysis as true, and if you haven't, it sounds utterly stupid as by all other analyses, state-run governments are very NOT capitalist.

Second issue is that honestly, anybody who actually believes in "state socialism" isn't going to call themselves a capitalist, and will basically identify with the political left. That also makes it absurd as a title.

Now, someone can rebut something about an analysis relying on the LTV and stealing the value of labor, but this analysis ONLY MAKES SENSE to people who've accepted an LTV model, and frankly, a lot of people don't consider that kind of analysis as even valid. One can even advocate a "socialist system" and deny the LTV. Even further, Marx doesn't own the label "socialist" as the term and concept predates Marx.



peebo
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05 Dec 2011, 1:09 pm

it does indeed pre-date marx, and to my knowledge none of those who talked of socialism before marx advocated any sort of authoritarian system. i take your point generally, however the notion of state socialism is actually quite absurd, much more-so than the notion of state capitalism, given that one of the key facets of socialism pre-ussr, by all accounts of which i am aware, was always the abolition of the state.


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?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?

Adam Smith


peebo
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05 Dec 2011, 1:10 pm

VMSmith wrote:
NoPast wrote:
the are 2 types of socialism

1)State socialism(state ownership of the means of productions,strong central planning)
2)Libertarian socialism/Anarchism (workers ownership of the means of productions,democracy extended to workplace,a system that empathizes collaboration over competition instead of the actual rat race )

the former(1)has always been source of brutal dictatorships,the latter(2) would drastically increase the living standard for the vast majority of world population but requires a cultural and psychological revolution and the collapse of capitalism and I can't see how this can happen in the near future


the 1st isnt socialism. it sounds more like stalinism but i wouldnt call it real socialism. it is the opposite of socialism. what marx said- "If this is Marxism, then I'm not a Marxist". they were state capitalist dictatorships.


indeed it is stalinism, and is the product of the notion of "socialism in one country".


_________________
?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?

Adam Smith