Page 3 of 4 [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Asp-Z
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Dec 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,018

30 Nov 2011, 9:51 am

bumble wrote:
But his intent is to get the drink. All poor joe wants is a drink. He is neither concerned with with the cup or dollar, he just wants his drink. The only real intention on his part is to get his drink.

And joe did not know about the cup when he had already decided (or intended) to get the drink, so therefore he did not go into the shop intending to get the cup. He only intended to get the drink.

Another question:

If someone pushes someone else and the person who was pushed bumps into you as a result of being pushed by the other person, did that person intend to bump into you or was it accidental?


He was told that the cup would come with the drink, then he ordered it anyway. He didn't care about the cup, but he still intended to get it with the drink as a result.

If someone bumps into me after being pushed by someone else, obviously that's accidental; they didn't know they were about to be pushed, did they?



bumble
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,073

30 Nov 2011, 9:57 am

Asp-Z wrote:
bumble wrote:
But his intent is to get the drink. All poor joe wants is a drink. He is neither concerned with with the cup or dollar, he just wants his drink. The only real intention on his part is to get his drink.

And joe did not know about the cup when he had already decided (or intended) to get the drink, so therefore he did not go into the shop intending to get the cup. He only intended to get the drink.

Another question:

If someone pushes someone else and the person who was pushed bumps into you as a result of being pushed by the other person, did that person intend to bump into you or was it accidental?


He was told that the cup would come with the drink, then he ordered it anyway. He didn't care about the cup, but he still intended to get it with the drink as a result.

If someone bumps into me after being pushed by someone else, obviously that's accidental; they didn't know they were about to be pushed, did they?


They might have known they were going to be pushed, but they wouldn't have known they were going to bump into you as a result.

I think joe would have bought the drink, regardless of whether it came in a fancy cup. I know I would if I was very thirsty. Neither would I care about the dollar. I would really just want my drink and that is all that would be on my mind lol



Asp-Z
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Dec 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,018

30 Nov 2011, 10:05 am

bumble wrote:
They might have known they were going to be pushed, but they wouldn't have known they were going to bump into you as a result.


If they knew they were going to be pushed (though I don't see how) and didn't get out the way, then it's their fault.

Quote:
I think joe would have bought the drink, regardless of whether it came in a fancy cup. I know I would if I was very thirsty. Neither would I care about the dollar. I would really just want my drink and that is all that would be on my mind lol


He would have, yes, but that doesn't mean he didn't intentionally get the cup.

You should like a good customer for a drink shop TBH, I could see myself making great profit margins off of you :P



Marcia
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Age: 55
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,148

30 Nov 2011, 10:12 am

Two things seem to be taken for granted here.

In the first case, that Joe has no objections to the commerative cup which is seen as value neutral. Many people have pointed out that Joe doesn't care about the cup and is onlybinterested in the drink. He has still made a decision not to care about the cup and to care more about the drink. Would he still make that decision if the cup commemorated something which Joe found offensive or objected to on principle?

In the second case, it is assumed that Joe has more than enough money and that to pay an extra dollar isn't a problem. Again, he has been made aware of the price rise and has decided that he is thirsty enough and can afford to pay it, or would rather pay the dollar one for the drink than later as part of his bus fare home.



bumble
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,073

30 Nov 2011, 10:14 am

Asp-Z wrote:
bumble wrote:
They might have known they were going to be pushed, but they wouldn't have known they were going to bump into you as a result.


If they knew they were going to be pushed (though I don't see how) and didn't get out the way, then it's their fault.

Quote:
I think joe would have bought the drink, regardless of whether it came in a fancy cup. I know I would if I was very thirsty. Neither would I care about the dollar. I would really just want my drink and that is all that would be on my mind lol


He would have, yes, but that doesn't mean he didn't intentionally get the cup.

You should like a good customer for a drink shop TBH, I could see myself making great profit margins off of you :P


Nope because I would only buy what I intended to buy regardless of the packaging it came in...so no selling me drinks I don't really want just cause the cup is fancy lol. Unless I want the cup that is, which I may not.



Asp-Z
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Dec 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,018

30 Nov 2011, 10:21 am

bumble wrote:
Nope because I would only buy what I intended to buy regardless of the packaging it came in...so no selling me drinks I don't really want just cause the cup is fancy lol. Unless I want the cup that is, which I may not.


Don't worry, the drink is very big and of very high quality :P



dianthus
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Nov 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,138

30 Nov 2011, 10:32 am

dianthus wrote:
Well in my opinion there is a huge problem with this test. It is implied that the Mega-size smoothie is the biggest size they have, but it is not stated whether or not this actually is the biggest size they have available. It is clear that Joe intends to get the biggest size, in both cases, but it is not clear if that is actually what he received.


I was going to wait until later to elaborate on this, but it's bugging me and I can't get it off my mind.

It is only implied that the cashier gives Joe the biggest size they have. The clerk may be using a suggestive selling technique to push the Mega-size to customers. In both examples, the cashier mentions the Mega-size *before* Joe orders. When Joe responds, "I don't care.......(blah blah blah)" the cashier may hear the first part and dismiss the rest of what he says. It is assumed that Joe will be satisfied with the Mega-size, because that is what the cashier suggested and he did not object.

In the second example, Joe obviously has no problem paying an extra dollar for the biggest size. But it is not clear whether he is getting the biggest size or not. The Mega-size is a dollar extra, but there may be a SuperMega-size which is, through some quirk of corporate pricing, only 10 cents more than the Mega-size. [The price of the Mega-size may have been raised a dollar to compensate for the commemorative cups they were giving away "free" in the earlier example.] Joe may not have been fully informed of the prices for all the sizes available. In both cases his agreement is based on trust that the cashier will give him the biggest size, which may not be the end result of the transaction.

Agreements that are based on miscommunications or assumptions cannot be taken as a measure of intentions.



CocoNuts
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2011
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Posts: 171

30 Nov 2011, 10:59 am

If by "intentional" it is meant that he knew what was going to happen, could stop it but didn't do anything about it, then I'd say he intentionally both received the cup and paid one extra dollar. If by "intentional" it is meant that he wanted the cup or to pay the dollar, I'd say he didn't receive the cup or paid an extra dollar intentionally. He just wanted his smoothie.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

30 Nov 2011, 12:41 pm

Burzum wrote:
bumble wrote:
he did not care about the cup and neither did he mind paying the extra dollar

I believe you have conflated caring with intent. The boy may not have cared about paying the extra dollar, but without the intent to do so he cannot buy the smoothie.

The problem is, being strictly logical, you can apply the same argument to the cup case. You cannot buy the smoothie without receiving the special cup. No matter how you break it down, to answer no in the special cup case and yes in the extra dollar case implies that the decision to spend money is more significant than the decision to take the special cup. From a logical stance both are required in order to obtain the smoothie.



League_Girl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,205
Location: Pacific Northwest

30 Nov 2011, 2:25 pm

bumble wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
bumble wrote:
But he didn't intend to get the cup at all, he didn't care about the cup. He intended to get the large drink which happened by chance to come with a fancy cup. If he had intended to get a smaller drink and then changed his decision so that he could get the fancy cup with the large drink then that would have been intentional, although it would not have been what he originally intended.


He didn't care about the cup, but he still intended to obtain it because he knew about the cup when he ordered the drink.


No, he says himself that he doesn't care about the cup. He would have bought the large smoothie whether it came with the cup or not. She gave him the cup because that is how the smoothie was served up on that day, but he didn't intend to get the cup at all. Saying he intended to get the cup is like saying I intended to get junk mail this morning because I signed up for something completely different last week and ended up on someone's junk mail list as a result.

The junk mail would be accidental, not intentional.



But you didn't know you be getting junk mail right?



SyphonFilter
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Feb 2011
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 2,161
Location: The intersection of Inkopolis’ Plaza & Square where the Turf Wars lie.

30 Nov 2011, 2:42 pm

I answered "no" to both questions.



MindWithoutWalls
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,445
Location: In the Workshop, with the Toolbox

30 Nov 2011, 2:44 pm

I guess I felt that, when he said he didn't care about the cup, he was actually feeling like he didn't want it. If I said that, it's how I would feel. I might've gotten a smaller size just to avoid the commemorative cup. What would I do with it? If I had a reason to want it, that would be different. I guess it bothers me that he had to get the cup anyway, even though he didn't want it.

As for paying the extra dollar, he meant to spend money, so if he got the biggest size, he meant to spend whatever he spent. Did he mean for it to be more expensive than it was the last time? Well, who would do that?! But the money didn't just fall out of his pocket for no reason.

Do you suppose NTs would bother to get into their reasoning over this question to the extent that people are doing it here?


_________________
Life is a classroom for a mind without walls.

Loitering is encouraged at The Wayshelter: http://wayshelter.com


bumble
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,073

30 Nov 2011, 2:44 pm

League_Girl wrote:
bumble wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
bumble wrote:
But he didn't intend to get the cup at all, he didn't care about the cup. He intended to get the large drink which happened by chance to come with a fancy cup. If he had intended to get a smaller drink and then changed his decision so that he could get the fancy cup with the large drink then that would have been intentional, although it would not have been what he originally intended.


He didn't care about the cup, but he still intended to obtain it because he knew about the cup when he ordered the drink.


No, he says himself that he doesn't care about the cup. He would have bought the large smoothie whether it came with the cup or not. She gave him the cup because that is how the smoothie was served up on that day, but he didn't intend to get the cup at all. Saying he intended to get the cup is like saying I intended to get junk mail this morning because I signed up for something completely different last week and ended up on someone's junk mail list as a result.

The junk mail would be accidental, not intentional.



But you didn't know you be getting junk mail right?


Nope or I'd select the box for them not to send it. I get enough rubbish through my letter box as it is lol.