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Letta
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03 Dec 2011, 6:56 am

Verdandi
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03 Dec 2011, 7:05 am

This is easy for me, but all it does is cycle through the same six designs over and over again, and never scores?

Picture completion was easy as well, except for one of the faces.



Letta
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03 Dec 2011, 7:24 am

I have tried this now, and it was excellent!

But it is perhaps difficult to sit and move bricks in reality (not data)


Edit: I am still from Norway so sorry for typos



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03 Dec 2011, 8:26 am

Verdandi wrote:
This is easy for me, but all it does is cycle through the same six designs over and over again, and never scores?

Picture completion was easy as well, except for one of the faces.



same???



Verdandi
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03 Dec 2011, 9:02 am

studderin wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
This is easy for me, but all it does is cycle through the same six designs over and over again, and never scores?

Picture completion was easy as well, except for one of the faces.



same???


There are six different block designs, and once you do all six, you start over. Or do you mean doing the tests was the same for you?



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03 Dec 2011, 10:31 am

auntblabby wrote:
what if i'm no good at ANY of those things?

Then Verdandi is probably right. :) You may be good at something totally different than those.

Verdandi wrote:
Temple Grandin's theories of autistic thought are extremely limited. She missed or abstracted a lot of ways autistic people can think that don't fit into any of those three models.

Could you post a better and still comprehensive one? I'm just curious and would be thankful.



Verdandi
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03 Dec 2011, 10:34 am

OJani wrote:
Could you post a better and still comprehensive one? I'm just curious and would be thankful.


I wish I could. anbuend posted something several months ago that was pretty comprehensive, but I could never find it again. I'll keep trying, though.



DerStadtschutz
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03 Dec 2011, 1:30 pm

OJani wrote:
I think being good at block design is only one area where most but not all Aspies are good at. You don't have to be good at it, as there are many other important areas / traits in which you can score high. Probably you don't have good visual skills at geometry (or spatial skills). Autistic brains may differ in their basic ways of thinking. Temple Grandin uses this grouping (it's only one of many possible):

Quote:
1. Visual thinkers, like me, think in photographically specific images. There are degrees of specificity of visual thinking. I can test run a machine in my head with full motion. Interviews with nonautistic visual thinkers indicated that they can only visualize still images. These images may range in specificity from images of specific places to more vague conceptual images. Learning algebra was impossible and a foreign language was difficult. Highly specific visual thinkers should skip algebra and study more visual forms of math such as trigonometry or geometry. Children who are visual thinkers will often be good at drawing, other arts, and building things with building toys such as Lego's. Many children who are visual thinkers like maps, flags, and photographs. Visual thinkers are well suited to jobs in drafting, graphic design, training animals, auto mechanics, jewelry making, construction, and factory automation.

2. Music and math thinkers think in patterns. These people often excel at math, chess, and computer programming. Some of these individuals have explained to me that they see patterns and relationships between patterns and numbers instead of photographic images. As children they may play music by ear and be interested in music. Music and math minds often have careers in computer programming, chemistry, statistics, engineering, music, and physics. Written language is not required for pattern thinking. The pre-literate Incas used complex bundles of knotted cords to keep track of taxes, labor, and trading among a thousand people.

3. Verbal logic thinkers think in word details. They often love history, foreign languages, weather statistics, and stock market reports. As children they often have a vast knowledge of sports scores. They are not visual thinkers and they are often poor at drawing. Children with speech delays are more likely to become visual or music and math thinkers. Many of these individuals had no speech delays, and they became word specialists. These individuals have found successful careers in language translation, journalism, accounting, speech therapy, special education, library work, or financial analysis.


( http://www.grandin.com/inc/visual.thinking.html )


Hmm... I seem to be some sort of mash-up of all 3 of these. I love history and foreign languages, but I couldn't give two s**ts about weather statistics, stock prices, or sports scores. I can usually play music by ear, and when I was in elementary school, my music teacher mentioned how well I can reproduce tones and how I was a good singer. I've always been good at math, specifically algebra(I HATE GEOMETRY). I'd like to learn computer programming, but I'm too lazy and the drive isn't strong enough. I'm pretty good at drawing(anime and videogame characters, anyway. I suppose I could draw other things, but i never had interest in drawing much of anything else), and I can picture movies in my head.

I just tried to do the block thing, but it just keeps repeating. It doesn't end or give me a result.



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03 Dec 2011, 3:47 pm

I've taken the exact same test several times, but never in relation to Autism. I've taken it during career skills evaluations, and in other similar type testing environments.

That test isn't designed specifically and only for Autism. It's designed solely to test a specific skill set. Doing well or poorly on it has no bearing as to whether or not you have Autism of any form. All it does is help give the doctor testing you some idea of the types of tasks you are best suited for.

I've always aced the block tests, but I suck terribly at many other tests for other skills.


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OJani
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03 Dec 2011, 3:48 pm

Verdandi wrote:
OJani wrote:
Could you post a better and still comprehensive one? I'm just curious and would be thankful.


I wish I could. anbuend posted something several months ago that was pretty comprehensive, but I could never find it again. I'll keep trying, though.

Do you mean this:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp3320905 ... t=#3320905

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf158466-0-15.html

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf121164-0-30.html

Anbuend always had some interesting insight, I miss her.



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03 Dec 2011, 4:01 pm

plantwhisperer wrote:
By definition, as an NLDer, (auditorily based autistic), you don't visualize well.

However, it is entirely possible to be a "hypervisualizer", and still not have a particularly good spatial sense. A combination more often found amongst the girls/women, both neurotypical and autistic.

A good score on the block design test requires one to remember non-representational design. So, you can refer to memory,, and not keep looking back and forth. This aptitude is more often found amongst males. And as most people with autism are male....hence the stereotype.

I'm female, and score in the 99% for picture recall (Woodcock Johnson Abilities test), but those are pictures of identifiable objects, and can therefore, be catagorized, and then remembered as to specifics. My score on block design was entirely average, and my lowest with the exception of auditory memory, (called the "working memory index") on the WAIS 111, and IV. So, I qualify as having an eidetic memory, (visual working memory) and yet, the Weschler test only factors auditory working memory into the formula for full scale IQ. You may be at an advantage here. Not that IQ as it is currently determined, means much in the grand scheme of things. But the Weschler is heavily weighted to favor auditory memory.

If auditory memory is favored that way I probably scored a bit low overall... As far as I remember I was good at block designs and other geometric tests, but not very good when working memory was required in a non-geometric way. Friday I'll try to discuss subscales of WAIS IV among other findings of my evaluation with the psychs.



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03 Dec 2011, 4:12 pm

auntblabby wrote:
OJani wrote:
1. Visual thinkers, like me, think in photographically specific images. There are degrees of specificity of visual thinking. I can test run a machine in my head with full motion. Interviews with nonautistic visual thinkers indicated that they can only visualize still images. These images may range in specificity from images of specific places to more vague conceptual images. Learning algebra was impossible and a foreign language was difficult. Highly specific visual thinkers should skip algebra and study more visual forms of math such as trigonometry or geometry. Children who are visual thinkers will often be good at drawing, other arts, and building things with building toys such as Lego's. Many children who are visual thinkers like maps, flags, and photographs. Visual thinkers are well suited to jobs in drafting, graphic design, training animals, auto mechanics, jewelry making, construction, and factory automation.

2. Music and math thinkers think in patterns. These people often excel at math, chess, and computer programming. Some of these individuals have explained to me that they see patterns and relationships between patterns and numbers instead of photographic images. As children they may play music by ear and be interested in music. Music and math minds often have careers in computer programming, chemistry, statistics, engineering, music, and physics. Written language is not required for pattern thinking. The pre-literate Incas used complex bundles of knotted cords to keep track of taxes, labor, and trading among a thousand people.

3. Verbal logic thinkers think in word details. They often love history, foreign languages, weather statistics, and stock market reports. As children they often have a vast knowledge of sports scores. They are not visual thinkers and they are often poor at drawing. Children with speech delays are more likely to become visual or music and math thinkers. Many of these individuals had no speech delays, and they became word specialists. These individuals have found successful careers in language translation, journalism, accounting, speech therapy, special education, library work, or financial analysis.


what if i'm no good at ANY of those things?


It is best to think about this on a meta-level of analysis, using Grandin's concepts, you can then surmise that if these are the extremes of the autistic mind, whom has the tendency to specialize in one area, due to deficits in others, that there are middle-points between them.

I was diagnosed with NLD (non-verbal learning) but scored high on the block design test, 13. I was later diagnosed with AS.

If I take Grandin's categories as black and white definitives I will of course run into a predicament, because I don't fit in anyone one category either. Everyone's brain is wired differently in order to make up for deficits in one area or another, in order to survive.

People with synethsia for example could be great at pattern thinking, because they are using visual indicators as ques outside of mnemonic memorization.

Just because I'm good at block-design doesn't mean I am good at visual thinking; it could mean that I am good at pattern thinking also, because there's a puzzle logic to it. I know that visual thinking can be exhaustive for me, despite being good at it, to some extent. Hypothetically we can do all sorts of things.

If I were to fit into a category, based on my predispositions, present and past interests I would fit them in something like this:

If there were a self-report test that using a spectrograph you could divide it into a pie of some sorts, using a triangle.

1. Visual thinking:
I cannot visualize a machine with full motion, without using another form of thinking to compensate. I do think I am better at this form of thinking than NT's on average, however. I have always had a love for maps and geographic information systems and my first intended major was within the arts. Photo-realism is not something I am great at. I do get along with animals quite well. My thinking on this line is closer related to pattern thinking.

2. Pattern thinking:
I do think that algebra is challenging for me, but not impossible. I do see relationships a lot. I was able to tell someone how to solve a business fielded question on how to trans-locate a large company from one area to another, utilizing the concept of a spiral for an example. They told me that that's exactly the principle and concept that the business teacher said was the answer that not even anyone in the class could surmise. I do enjoy music, if learned in the Suzuki method I could do quite well - I am terrible at reading sheet music. I had to create a system of numbers in order to read it. This is my third intended major that I am fielding to find out if it works best. I had a great mentor in computers when I was younger and If I kept that contact I would be more into computer programming than I am right now. I was also able to program a simple computer robot in a class full of people whom knew what they were doing by trial and error, utilizing verbal logic to make sense of the pattern logic.

3. Verbal thinking:
I do have a very high verbal IQ, it is the area I scored the highest in so I am going to say this is my primary mode of functioning. My second intended major after the arts was all verbal logic thinking: Political Science. I know that I get overwhelmed when given a lot of verbal information at once, so I rely on pattern thinking to systematically group information to lower the amplitude of processing. In the Weschler Adult Intelligence scale this was noted. Because after the first iteration of the auditory test where they give you a list of different objects and ask you to repeat all the ones you remember and to say whether or not an item was on the list, I scored poorly. After the third try I had figured out the pattern and systematically put them into categories: fruits and vegetables, furniture, and transportation vehicles. I got every item on the list correct after that.


1. Visual thinking: 20 (Tertiary)
2. Pattern thinking: 30 (Secondary)
3. Verbal thinking: 50 (Primary)

I'm a Verbal, Pattern-Visual thinker - tada! Not to be confused with a Verbal, VISUAL-Pattern thinker.

Just like volts in electricity isn't what hurts you but the amps, similarly you can think of this like that. I use visual thinking to help me process pattern thinking and vice-versa. I use verbal thinking to process visual and pattern thinking. If you think of it more relationally I think you can make sense of it better. Even though my numbers are below 50 the largest gap is between Verbal and Visual, which means I use pattern thinking as an intermediary.

The amplitude it takes for me to utilize visual and pattern thinking drains me faster than when I utilize verbal thinking. I think it is my primary mode of functioning for that reason. If anything it gives me a different perspective into pattern thinking. Likewise, my emphasis on patterns gives me insight into visual thinking. When I conceptualize visually I write about it verbally in order to generate ideas visually.

You can go a step further and say if there are five-levels, within three degrees of thinking, do something like this:

Now, hypothetically I could be a 4th level verbal thinker, 3rd level Pattern thinker, and a 3rd level Visual thinker using this system. Now compare this to someone whom is a 5th level verbal thinker, a pattern and visual thinker of the first order, and you come up with very different outcomes, indeed. :) Even though we both specialize in verbal thinking we go about it in different ways. My pattern thinking could be on the same level as my verbal thinking because I am utilizing my visual thinking with it. I'm great at abstraction, pattern, impressionistic art, but poor at photorealism, shading, etc., because it involves a high working memory, which I don't have. The Weschler Adult Intelligence test showed visual, perceptual thinking was where I scored the lowest, even though I scored high on the block design test.

During periods of decompensation wherein I have lost of previously known skills in a field of thinking, I utilize different forms of thinking, which is why I've separated them into primary, secondary, and tertiary. When I had a period of decompensation in art school I turned to concept generation using literal form in order to invoke imagery. It is similar to describing something that is visual, using literal words to invoke sensations of texture, colour, scale, etc. My personal theory of how decompensation affects those on the spectrum different is related to this concept. The ability for some with AS to cope differs based on their ability to depend upon or develop a different way of processing information when one is overloaded.

Disclaimer: Also to note the Weschler Adult Intelligence scaling isn't completely accurate by itself. It is usually given with several other tests to validate verbal and perceptual reasoning scores, which is what they did when I took my testing with a psychologist. It is there to spot inconsistencies. People whom are NT have relatively equal ratios between verbal and perceptual intelligence scales. I had a 22 point difference between my numbers, which is why I was initially diagnosed with NLD. I used this diagnosis to receive my AS one.



Last edited by Antreus on 03 Dec 2011, 5:01 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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03 Dec 2011, 4:31 pm

i created the patterns in some unusual fashion - the examiner had not seen anyone complete them as i did, methodically, piece by piece, back and forth row by row... meticulously putting down in each piece without having to move them once placed.

BUT i did not get the highest possible score as i stopped to check my work on the last puzzle so i lost some points due to taking too much time.


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03 Dec 2011, 5:21 pm

Letta wrote:


Is there a harder version...I like those kinds of things, they are fun to sit and do but it is a bit easy.



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03 Dec 2011, 5:23 pm

Umm can NT's not think in moving images? Or have I read that wrong?

I don't know exactly what my style of thinking is, but I have still images, moving images, and can also think verbally. Depends what I need for what and when and what style of thinking is most useful to me at the time. Was good at English, Math (used to love algebra), sciences but can also be creative and do art when I want to do it although I was a late comer to that as when I was younger I was more academically inclined (out of preference back then). I did write poetry as way to create though as I used to consider it to be "painting with words". I have had 4 published over the years but stopped writing poetry a while back and moved over to the visual arts and crafts instead.

When it came to subjects though at school I tended to be even across the board grade wise...So it was always hard to pick which subjects I wanted to do at later stages of study. Too many to choose from sometimes.



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03 Dec 2011, 5:56 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
i created the patterns in some unusual fashion - the examiner had not seen anyone complete them as i did, methodically, piece by piece, back and forth row by row... meticulously putting down in each piece without having to move them once placed.

BUT i did not get the highest possible score as i stopped to check my work on the last puzzle so i lost some points due to taking too much time.


Yes but your analysis was far more thorough and methodical. You took longer, but was more accurate. Sadly, this is how academia has evolved into. Superficial analysis over slow, deep, and probing analysis.