Obama's DoJ Corruption exposed in Fast & Furious

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blauSamstag
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08 Dec 2011, 1:00 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Excuse me?!?!? I don't think you even read the article, and your statements kinda backs up my theory.

They lied to Gun Dealerships about tracking the guns, they turned the guns over to the cartels and then started blaming the Gun Dealerships...

The Gun Dealerships have the ATF on tape, lieing to them, and you're telling me it was some sort of elaborate sting. Looks more like an attempt to frame someone for a crime.


What has that got to do with the ATF providing guns to the cartels as part of an official investigation?

Sounds more like hackneyed retroactive ass-covering to me.



Inuyasha
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08 Dec 2011, 1:22 am

blauSamstag wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Excuse me?!?!? I don't think you even read the article, and your statements kinda backs up my theory.

They lied to Gun Dealerships about tracking the guns, they turned the guns over to the cartels and then started blaming the Gun Dealerships...

The Gun Dealerships have the ATF on tape, lieing to them, and you're telling me it was some sort of elaborate sting. Looks more like an attempt to frame someone for a crime.


What has that got to do with the ATF providing guns to the cartels as part of an official investigation?

Sounds more like hackneyed retroactive ass-covering to me.


Let me break this down for you.

1. ATF tells Gun Dealerships they want to have so and so buy guns for a sting and the Gun Dealerships comply because they want to do right thing.

2. ATF doesn't pick up the guns or bust cartel members when they go to pick up guns and instead let them get shipped to Mexico.

3. Guns from Fast & Furious start showing up in murders in Mexico and the United States.

4. Gun Dealerships get suspicious of ATF after they start hearing about the guns they sold under the directive of ATF were being used in violent crimes.

5. Some Gun Dealership Owners contact the ATF and demand an explanation. ATF lies to Dealership owners, but unbeknownst to the ATF agents, their conversation was taped.

6. Obama Administration tries to blame gun dealerships and have a crackdown on dealerships and new gun laws put in place.

7. Scheme falls apart as ATF agents that had been voicing concerns over Fast & Furious finally go public. Gun Dealerships turn over tapes of conversations to Congress.

8. Justice Department doesn't fire anyone but start punishing whistle blowers despite being warned by congress not to.

I might be oversimplifying just a tad, but the general summary is accurate.

Oh and before you start blaming Bush, the original project under Bush, called Project Gunrunner was in coordination with the Mexican Government and cartel members were arrested when they picked up the guns.

Fast & Furious started under the Obama administration, and unlike Bush's Justice Department, Obama's Justice Department let the guns go into Mexico and appear to have had every intent of something like this fiasco happening.

So don't bother trying to blame Bush, cause I'm telling you right now it would be dishonest.

The project began during the Bush administration in Laredo, Texas, in 2005 as a trial, morphing into a national program in 2006. The guns were sold and tracked electronically, giving law enforcement agents valuable intelligence on where the weapons went and who had them.

During the Bush years, no guns were allowed to cross the border into Mexico. When President Obama took office in 2009, things changed. Obama’s ATF continued Project Gunrunner, but made a crucial decision to allow guns to be “walked” into Mexico, eventually ending up in the hands of Mexican drug cartels.

The results, in at least one instance, were tragic. Two AK-47s ATF officials were tracking were found at the scene of U.S. border agent Brian Terry’s murder.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/21/what- ... z1fvCPUYlL



Dox47
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08 Dec 2011, 3:42 am

For once, I'm largely in agreement with Inuyasha, his take and explanation on this seems to be largely accurate.

I've been suspicious ever since I heard rumors about this, as it explained the administration's complete lack of action on gun issues despite the anti-gun record of Obama and his appointees. Holder made some noise about bringing back the assault weapons ban and other Clinton era gun controls right after the election, only to be shushed by Nancy Pelosi and others within the Democratic machine, presumably knowing how toxic the issue had become politically. I could easily believe that Holder would approve an operation to manufacture a crisis that could then be used to prime the electorate to accept wider gun control, it's practically the only politically feasible to approach the subject. The emails certainly seem to prove that this was the strategy being pursued within ATF, using straw purchases that they forced the gun dealers to allow to then justify a stricter control regime. Now whether the conceiving and implementation of that plan was local to ATF or goes further up into the DOJ is the real question, if it does go all the way to Holder he should get the axe for this, maybe prison time if the policy can proven to have caused deaths.


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WilliamWDelaney
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08 Dec 2011, 9:55 am

Inuyasha wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Dishonest? Yes, most assuredly.

High crime or midemeanour? I don't buy it.


Giving guns to Mexican drug cartels specifically to cause a crisis on our Southern Border to push for regulations to make it harder for American Citizens to practice their rights under the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution?
Just a moment. You mean you think that Fast and Furious was an elaborate scheme to create anti-gun sentiment?

Quote:
We also have at least 1 US Border Agent dead, and who knows how many other Americans have died as a result of this, all cause Obama and/or Eric Holder wanted to demonize gun owners and make it a lot harder for law abiding Americans to own a firearm.
You are a wacko.

Quote:
I think this administration had every intention of having United States Citizens getting killed to further their vendetta against law abiding gun owners in the United States.
Hey, examine your reasoning, here. It is CIRCULAR.

Premise 1: "The Obama administration has an anti-gun vendetta."

Premise 2: "A flawed ATF program resulted in border shootings."

Premise 3: "Border shootings have generated an anti-gun panic among the public."

Conclusion: "Barack Obama's administration engineered a flawed ATF program to cause an increase in border shootings in order to generate an anti-gun panic among the public to help advance an anti-gun vendetta."

You fail Logic 101, ret*d!

What you are doing here is snowballing your premises in order to inflate Premise 1, which you are not even discussing, and thereby creating a sense that Eric holder must have an all but psychopathic aversion to guns. Your reasoning here is clearly circular.

In answer to your premises:

Premise 1: "The Obama administration has an anti-gun vendetta."

--- Holder, who grew up in the black part of East Elmhurst, Queens, NY, in the 1950s and 1960s might have been exposed to gun violence during his youth. It is possible that his background has something to do with his stance on guns. However, his record indicates that his primary concern is with illegal gun trafficking that leads to guns falling into the hands of criminals, such as his support for the three day waiting period for the purchase of a handgun and his opposition to gun shows. It is more consistent with his record that Fast and Furious is exactly what it has been presented as, which is an attempt to capture criminals who buy guns.

Premise 2: "A flawed ATF program resulted in border shootings."

Bush's people had an all but identical program:

By Sari Horwitz wrote:
But Wide Receiver, conducted in the Bush administration, has not received a lot of attention. According to Justice spokeswoman Tracy Schmaler, some of the e-mails used in the attempt to discredit Holder were referring to the Tucson case, Wide Receiver.

More specifically, Schmaler said that when the e-mails mention “guns walking,” they are referring to the 2006-07 Tucson case, Operation Wide Receiver. Schmaler said neither of the officials knew about guns walking in the Fast and Furious case.

On Oct. 16, 2010, James Trusty, chief of the Organized Crime and Gang section, wrote to Criminal Division Deputy Assistant Attorney General Jason Weinstein:

“Looks like we’ll be able to unseal the Tucson case sooner than the Fast and Furious,” he wrote. “It’s not clear how much we’re involved in the main F and F case, but we have Tucson. . . . I’m not sure how much grief we get for ‘guns walking,’ it [sic] may be more like, ‘Finally, they’re going after people who sent guns down there.’ ”

The next day, Oct. 17, 2010, Weinstein replied:

“Do you think we should try to have Lanny [Breuer] participate in press when Fast and Furious and Laura’s Tucson case are unsealed?” he wrote. “It’s a tricky case given the number of guns that have walked but it is a significant set of prosecutions.” Breuer is the assistant attorney general for the Criminal Division.

Whether the issue was Operation Wide Receiver or Fast and Furious, Justice should have acknowledged the tactics to Congress when asked, said a spokesman for Issa. “In February, the Justice Department asserted to Congress it had no knowledge of gun walking by ATF agents,” said the spokesman, Frederick Hill.

Grassley staffers said Thursday night that it was Jason Weinstein, the Criminal Division deputy assistant attorney general, who was the lead Justice Department official who briefed the Senate Judiciary staff in February and left the impression that no gun walking had occurred.

Grassley and Issa released more documents Thursday, charging that Holder received at least five memos describing Fast and Furious, beginning in July 2010.

At a White House news conference, President Obama defended Holder and reiterated that neither he nor Holder knew that ATF was allowing illegally purchased guns to slip into Mexico.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html


The idea of using weapons sales to track down criminals is not a new one. Considering that similar tactics have been used in the past, it's not groundbreaking that the DOJ would recycle an old concept to try to track down criminals.

Also, you could only argue that the past failures would have made it obvious that similar tactics wouldn't work if no factors relating to it had changed. In fact, the presence of new gun tracking technology has changed the scene sufficiently that it would make considerably more sense now to take another run at this approach to tracking down criminals.

Quote:
THIS WEB SITE IS FOR THE USE OF AUTHORIZED LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ONLY.

eTrace (Electronic Tracing System)is an internet-based system that allows participating law enforcement agencies to submit firearm traces to the ATF National Tracing Center (NTC). Authorized users can receive firearm trace results via this same internet web site, search a database of all firearm traces submitted by their individual agency, and perform analytical functions.

To begin, please log on:

https://www.atfonline.gov/etrace/
Although the program nevertheless failed, this could not have been known at its conception.

Premise 3: "Border shootings have generated an anti-gun panic among the public."

This one is just false, period. In fact, the public has increasingly lost interest in the concept that gun control will necessarily make them safer.

Quote:
From Oakland, California, to Binghamton, New York, several mass shootings in recent weeks have killed dozens across the country. But has there been an effect on public opinion?

Yes, and in a surprising way.

Since 2001, most Americans have favored stricter gun laws, though support has slightly dropped in recent years: 54 percent favored stricter laws in 2001, compared with 50 percent in 2007, according to Gallup polling.

Now, a recent poll reveals a sudden drop -- only 39 percent of Americans now favor stricter gun laws, according to a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-08/poli ... M:POLITICS
Apparently, all the shootings did was get people interested in buying a handgun for themselves to defend themselves from gun-toting felons. In fact, there has been an increase in gun sales in reaction to these shootings.

Quote:
Tucson shooting leads to increased gun sales
January 13, 2011|By Chad Damp ([email protected])


MISHAWAKA — The shooting in Tucson is once again raising questions about the need for stricter gun laws. And that includes a possible ban on certain types of guns, gun accessories and ammunition. This talk of a possible ban has actually led to a surge in sales.

Days after Jared Loughner allegedly went on a shooting rampage in Tucson, Arizona, killing 6 people and injuring 13 more, flags were lowered throughout the country in honor of those who died. At the same time, many states saw a significant rise in the sale of guns similar to the one used in the Tucson shooting.

The gun Loughner allegedly used was a Glock 19 9mm handgun. The standard clip holds 15 rounds. The clip used in the Tucson shooting was larger, capable of holding more than 30. Midwest Gun Exchange in Mishawaka says they've sold what would be a month's supply in one week.

http://articles.wsbt.com/2011-01-13/gun-sales_27028011


Conclusion: Inuyasha is a racist conspiracy nut and a phony, and we should all laugh at him, long and loud.



visagrunt
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08 Dec 2011, 1:58 pm

Stupid policy? I'm largely convinced.

Criminal? Jury's out on this one. I'm reluctant to start labelling it criminal--but I would not be averse to a prosecutor attempting to make the case to obtain an indictment.

Impeachment? A politically inept response that will only serve to solidify public opinion behind the Administration. The only people who will be persuaded of wrongdoing (particularly on the part of Obama) will be people who are already persuaded. So why waste time and effort convincing the people who are already going to vote for you anyway?

The beautiful thing about Republicans this year is that they are, by and large, failing to keep their eye on the strategic objective.

If you really want to achieve something, start getting the message out that the policy is stupid. That message is far more likely to get swing voters engaged than a futile, Chicken Little attempt to invoke "high crimes and misdemeanours."


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WilliamWDelaney
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08 Dec 2011, 2:53 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Stupid policy? I'm largely convinced.
In 20/20 hindsight, perhaps. It really wasn't a bad or unprecedented idea. It just didn't work.

However, what did work was the eTrace program that helped expose it.

Quote:
Criminal? Jury's out on this one.
Bullcrap. See above. Any charge of Holder doing anything with criminal intent would require him to be simultaneously a genius criminal mastermind, an incompetent fool, and someone who suddenly developed an intense, altogether irrational phobia of firearms that is inconsistent with his history, in which he has largely been concerned specifically with illegal gun trafficking...a perfectly rational and valid concern. To even begin to think that there is any validity in Inuyasha's claims, you'd have to believe several unlikely and disjointed things at once.

Quote:
If you really want to achieve something, start getting the message out that the policy is stupid. That message is far more likely to get swing voters engaged than a futile, Chicken Little attempt to invoke "high crimes and misdemeanours."
No, that's not sufficient for Inuyasha. He and people like him are busy trying to build up an alternate universe where Obama's administration is truly fabulously evil like something out of a thriller novel. Don't expect these guys to show much regard for truth.

The reason why is that people live more in their fictitious universes than in the real world. It is just a fact of life that people spend more time filling their brains with whatever thriller novel is popular or what ever sci-fi flick is playing on TNT than reading or viewing anything related to fact. Therefore, if you bring to mind images from these fantasy worlds, you will have more credibility because you are operating more within the cosmos they actually live in.

And Inuyasha knows this. Don't give him enough credit for morals to think he's really this stupid. He is a lowlife.



visagrunt
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08 Dec 2011, 3:35 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
In 20/20 hindsight, perhaps. It really wasn't a bad or unprecedented idea. It just didn't work.

However, what did work was the eTrace program that helped expose it.


Well, policy should always be subject to review, and hindsight is a perfectly acceptable lens, if you use it to avoid similar errors in future.

Quote:
Bullcrap. See above. Any charge of Holder doing anything with criminal intent would require him to be simultaneously a genius criminal mastermind, an incompetent fool, and someone who suddenly developed an intense, altogether irrational phobia of firearms that is inconsistent with his history, in which he has largely been concerned specifically with illegal gun trafficking...a perfectly rational and valid concern. To even begin to think that there is any validity in Inuyasha's claims, you'd have to believe several unlikely and disjointed things at once.


I'm no more convinced by you than I am by Inuyasha. I'm tabula rasa on this one.

Quote:
No, that's not sufficient for Inuyasha. He and people like him are busy trying to build up an alternate universe where Obama's administration is truly fabulously evil like something out of a thriller novel. Don't expect these guys to show much regard for truth.

The reason why is that people live more in their fictitious universes than in the real world. It is just a fact of life that people spend more time filling their brains with whatever thriller novel is popular or what ever sci-fi flick is playing on TNT than reading or viewing anything related to fact. Therefore, if you bring to mind images from these fantasy worlds, you will have more credibility because you are operating more within the cosmos they actually live in.

And Inuyasha knows this. Don't give him enough credit for morals to think he's really this stupid. He is a lowlife.


I don't think that last is a fair call. He has the moral conviction and absolute certainty of belief that one sees in young people at all points of the political spectrum. After all, as Clémenceau said (perhaps apocryphally)

Quote:
n'être pas sociliste à vignt ans est preuve d'un manque de coeur; d'etre à trente ans est preuve d'un manque de tête.


In fairness to Inuyasha, I think he's a true believer. While I think that he is misguided in his beliefs (as no doubt he does me in mine), what is more interesting to me is the thought process that takes him from his dislike of Obama and the present Administration through to the view that hyperbole is the means by which electoral change can occur.

If I can achieve nothing else, the promotion of the idea that there is progress to be found in moderation is the goal to which I most often return.


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WilliamWDelaney
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08 Dec 2011, 3:45 pm

visagrunt wrote:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
In 20/20 hindsight, perhaps. It really wasn't a bad or unprecedented idea. It just didn't work.

However, what did work was the eTrace program that helped expose it.


Well, policy should always be subject to review, and hindsight is a perfectly acceptable lens, if you use it to avoid similar errors in future.
Okay, in the hindsight, we now know that eTrace helped detect a problematical and dangerous problem before it could get any worse. Without it, it may have been years before it was detected, and the extent of the damage wouldn't have been as clear.

I can take one aspect of this and spin it the way I want to, but the plain facts are that Operation Fast and Furious was an attempt by the DOJ to track down criminals and help build a case against them. The program failed, so the DOJ is sensibly taking it out of commission rather than defending it and trying to protract it.

Quote:
I don't think that last is a fair call. He has the moral conviction and absolute certainty of belief that one sees in young people at all points of the political spectrum. After all, as Clémenceau said (perhaps apocryphally)

Quote:
n'être pas sociliste à vignt ans est preuve d'un manque de coeur; d'etre à trente ans est preuve d'un manque de tête.


In fairness to Inuyasha, I think he's a true believer. While I think that he is misguided in his beliefs (as no doubt he does me in mine), what is more interesting to me is the thought process that takes him from his dislike of Obama and the present Administration through to the view that hyperbole is the means by which electoral change can occur.
I don't trust him. The image he's trying to build of Barack Obama is just too convenient. I think he knows exactly what he's doing in engineering this bullcrap.



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08 Dec 2011, 4:54 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Dishonest? Yes, most assuredly.

High crime or midemeanour? I don't buy it.


Giving guns to Mexican drug cartels specifically to cause a crisis on our Southern Border to push for regulations to make it harder for American Citizens to practice their rights under the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution?
Just a moment. You mean you think that Fast and Furious was an elaborate scheme to create anti-gun sentiment?


Based on the emails that have surfaced and the bits of testimony I saw on CSPAN3 today, yes.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Quote:
We also have at least 1 US Border Agent dead, and who knows how many other Americans have died as a result of this, all cause Obama and/or Eric Holder wanted to demonize gun owners and make it a lot harder for law abiding Americans to own a firearm.
You are a wacko.


:roll:

Grow up, the evidence supports what I'm saying, since you can't counter what I've said, you proceed to attack me like a typical far left radical using Saul Allinsky's (sp?) Rulebook for Radicals. It is not going to work.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Quote:
I think this administration had every intention of having United States Citizens getting killed to further their vendetta against law abiding gun owners in the United States.
Hey, examine your reasoning, here. It is CIRCULAR.

Premise 1: "The Obama administration has an anti-gun vendetta."

Premise 2: "A flawed ATF program resulted in border shootings."

Premise 3: "Border shootings have generated an anti-gun panic among the public."

Conclusion: "Barack Obama's administration engineered a flawed ATF program to cause an increase in border shootings in order to generate an anti-gun panic among the public to help advance an anti-gun vendetta."


You left out the e-mails which ties everything together and show that the DoJ was talking strategy to push the administration's gun control agenda. That added little tidbit which you left out either from an oversight on your part or more likely deliberately, actually provides proof that my analysis is accurate.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
You fail Logic 101, ret*d!


Isn't this a blatent violation of forum rules... Man you must be desperate.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
What you are doing here is snowballing your premises in order to inflate Premise 1, which you are not even discussing, and thereby creating a sense that Eric holder must have an all but psychopathic aversion to guns. Your reasoning here is clearly circular.


Looks more like you didn't read the article, nor did you watch any of the testimony today. Because you have nothing to counter what I'm saying, you are resorting to typical smear tactics and violating forum rules.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
In answer to your premises:


More like political spin.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Premise 1: "The Obama administration has an anti-gun vendetta."

--- Holder, who grew up in the black part of East Elmhurst, Queens, NY, in the 1950s and 1960s might have been exposed to gun violence during his youth. It is possible that his background has something to do with his stance on guns. However, his record indicates that his primary concern is with illegal gun trafficking that leads to guns falling into the hands of criminals, such as his support for the three day waiting period for the purchase of a handgun and his opposition to gun shows. It is more consistent with his record that Fast and Furious is exactly what it has been presented as, which is an attempt to capture criminals who buy guns.


Unless you consider coming up with ways to blame gun dealerships that were complying with ATF whom lied to them to be a legitimate operation, your explanation is a load of bull. I didn't know about Holder's background, and I still couldn't care less because it is irrelevant.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Premise 2: "A flawed ATF program resulted in border shootings."

Bush's people had an all but identical program:


Despite what you are stating in your source, it is contradicted by a source I provided prior to your post.

During the Bush years, no guns were allowed to cross the border into Mexico. When President Obama took office in 2009, things changed. Obama’s ATF continued Project Gunrunner, but made a crucial decision to allow guns to be “walked” into Mexico, eventually ending up in the hands of Mexican drug cartels.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/21/what- ... z1fyw74Gwo

Your attempt transparent blame Bush isn't going to fly because the letting guns go into Mexico didn't start until 2009 when Obama was in office, not George W. Bush.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
The idea of using weapons sales to track down criminals is not a new one. Considering that similar tactics have been used in the past, it's not groundbreaking that the DOJ would recycle an old concept to try to track down criminals.


Nice try, but there is a key difference between Bush's program and Obama's.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Also, you could only argue that the past failures would have made it obvious that similar tactics wouldn't work if no factors relating to it had changed. In fact, the presence of new gun tracking technology has changed the scene sufficiently that it would make considerably more sense now to take another run at this approach to tracking down criminals.


Then why weren't they making the busts like what Bush's DoJ did when the cartel clowns went to pick up the guns...

Seriously, the Daily Caller article completely destroys your claims.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Quote:
THIS WEB SITE IS FOR THE USE OF AUTHORIZED LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ONLY.

eTrace (Electronic Tracing System)is an internet-based system that allows participating law enforcement agencies to submit firearm traces to the ATF National Tracing Center (NTC). Authorized users can receive firearm trace results via this same internet web site, search a database of all firearm traces submitted by their individual agency, and perform analytical functions.

To begin, please log on:

https://www.atfonline.gov/etrace/
Although the program nevertheless failed, this could not have been known at its conception.


The DoJ already got caught lieing to congress, what's to stop them from lieing in other statements. No DoJ official in charge of Fast & Furious have been fired, some have been promoted, yet they are punishing Whistleblowers in violation of the law and you have the gall to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

You are full of it.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Premise 3: "Border shootings have generated an anti-gun panic among the public."

This one is just false, period. In fact, the public has increasingly lost interest in the concept that gun control will necessarily make them safer.


Well duh cause they got caught thanks to the Whistleblowers and gun dealerships.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Quote:
From Oakland, California, to Binghamton, New York, several mass shootings in recent weeks have killed dozens across the country. But has there been an effect on public opinion?

Yes, and in a surprising way.

Since 2001, most Americans have favored stricter gun laws, though support has slightly dropped in recent years: 54 percent favored stricter laws in 2001, compared with 50 percent in 2007, according to Gallup polling.

Now, a recent poll reveals a sudden drop -- only 39 percent of Americans now favor stricter gun laws, according to a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-08/poli ... M:POLITICS
Apparently, all the shootings did was get people interested in buying a handgun for themselves to defend themselves from gun-toting felons. In fact, there has been an increase in gun sales in reaction to these shootings.


No, the gun sales increase is due to incidents like Fast & Furious because people have lost trust in the Department of Justice.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Quote:
Tucson shooting leads to increased gun sales
January 13, 2011|By Chad Damp ([email protected])


MISHAWAKA — The shooting in Tucson is once again raising questions about the need for stricter gun laws. And that includes a possible ban on certain types of guns, gun accessories and ammunition. This talk of a possible ban has actually led to a surge in sales.

Days after Jared Loughner allegedly went on a shooting rampage in Tucson, Arizona, killing 6 people and injuring 13 more, flags were lowered throughout the country in honor of those who died. At the same time, many states saw a significant rise in the sale of guns similar to the one used in the Tucson shooting.

The gun Loughner allegedly used was a Glock 19 9mm handgun. The standard clip holds 15 rounds. The clip used in the Tucson shooting was larger, capable of holding more than 30. Midwest Gun Exchange in Mishawaka says they've sold what would be a month's supply in one week.

http://articles.wsbt.com/2011-01-13/gun-sales_27028011



There you go again... :roll:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Conclusion: Inuyasha is a racist conspiracy nut and a phony, and we should all laugh at him, long and loud.


Excuse me?!?! I do think that violates forum rules yet again. Also got news for you, the spamming the race card no longer works cause everyone knows leftists just call people racist whenever they can't win a debate against a Conservative on the facts.



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08 Dec 2011, 6:20 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
You are full of it.
You mean because I back up MY claims with actual evidence? I know that's against your religion to actually support your claims with anything resembling factual evidence, but you should understand that your views on this matter are hardly mainstream.



Inuyasha
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08 Dec 2011, 7:30 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
You are full of it.
You mean because I back up MY claims with actual evidence? I know that's against your religion to actually support your claims with anything resembling factual evidence, but you should understand that your views on this matter are hardly mainstream.


Mainstream compared to what, the leftwing driveby media?

The facts contradict what you were claiming, there are emails that have surfaced that suggest that the Department of Justice was using Fast & Furious to create a crisis in order to push for more gun control. That's not an opinion, that's a cold hard fact.

I really don't care if you say that what I'm saying is a fringe position because you don't represent a mainstream opinion, I think Dox47 pointed that out in a different thread.

In this thread you have called me: wacko, ret*d, and racist; that indicates that you know you have lost this debate badly, and as a result you try to demonize the person you were debating against.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.


On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:


"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-5 ... op;stories

This is in conjunction with an earlier report on March 3, 2011:
(CBS News) WASHINGTON - Federal agent John Dodson says what he was asked to do was beyond belief.

He was intentionally letting guns go to Mexico?

"Yes ma'am," Dodson told CBS News. "The agency was."

An Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms senior agent assigned to the Phoenix office in 2010, Dodson's job is to stop gun trafficking across the border. Instead, he says he was ordered to sit by and watch it happen.

Investigators call the tactic letting guns "walk." In this case, walking into the hands of criminals who would use them in Mexico and the United States.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/ ... ontentBody

Also care to explain this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwlRfeEzG4U[/youtube]

And:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dViYkZkj1Po[/youtube]

Watch the videos, I don't care if you don't like Fox News, we have people that have been retailiated against for blowing the whistle on Fast & Furious.



blauSamstag
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08 Dec 2011, 7:36 pm

Were the people pushing for demand letter 3 the same people who ordered these guns to be allowed across the border?

Because otherwise it looks like the right hand not knowing or caring what the left hand does.



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08 Dec 2011, 7:48 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Were the people pushing for demand letter 3 the same people who ordered these guns to be allowed across the border?

Because otherwise it looks like the right hand not knowing or caring what the left hand does.


What has been uncovered thus far indicates that both were from high up in the DoJ. It also looks as though the DoJ is trying to pull a cover-up and is obstructing justice based on the bits of the interview I saw on C-Span 3 today.

http://nation.foxnews.com/eric-holder/2 ... -ugly-turn



WilliamWDelaney
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08 Dec 2011, 8:47 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
In this thread you have called me: wacko, ret*d, and racist;
Which is one of the reasons I'm not inclined to pursue this subject with much depth. External pressures have clearly taken a toll on my ability both to maintain any respectable level of civility, and I have more self-respect than to bully someone who is essentially harmless without at least providing some legitimate discussion to justify it, which neither my patience nor my timeframe are presently prepared for.

I apologize for calling you a racist and a ret*d. You are clearly neither. The other charge stands. Also, I am starting to agree with Visagrunt about your intentions: I was hasty in accusing you of deliberate mendacity, not that this helps my assessment of other attributes of your character, and I apologize for that. I affirm that you probably actually believe what you're saying, delusional and paranoid as I, in my fairly educated but nevertheless fallible opinion, consider it to be.

More topically, I don't see how an ambiguous letter by this Chait guy implicates Holder, much less Obama, except in terms of "guilt by association." Cefalu was disciplined and later "let go" for leaking information about wiretapping activity he disagreed with, nothing related to F&F.

I will not argue this point further with you.



Inuyasha
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08 Dec 2011, 11:26 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
In this thread you have called me: wacko, ret*d, and racist;
Which is one of the reasons I'm not inclined to pursue this subject with much depth. External pressures have clearly taken a toll on my ability both to maintain any respectable level of civility, and I have more self-respect than to bully someone who is essentially harmless without at least providing some legitimate discussion to justify it, which neither my patience nor my timeframe are presently prepared for.


Excuse me?!?!

Looks more like you don't have a legitimate argument.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
I apologize for calling you a racist and a ret*d. You are clearly neither. The other charge stands. Also, I am starting to agree with Visagrunt about your intentions: I was hasty in accusing you of deliberate mendacity, not that this helps my assessment of other attributes of your character, and I apologize for that. I affirm that you probably actually believe what you're saying, delusional and paranoid as I, in my fairly educated but nevertheless fallible opinion, consider it to be.


Your non-apology apology is not accepted, if you are going to apologize mean it or don't bother apologizing. Don't try to insult my intelligence like that.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
More topically, I don't see how an ambiguous letter by this Chait guy implicates Holder, much less Obama, except in terms of "guilt by association." Cefalu was disciplined and later "let go" for leaking information about wiretapping activity he disagreed with, nothing related to F&F.


Either Holder needs to resign because he knew or Holder needs to resign for being an incompetitent idiot.

It also came out today that the DoJ has deliberately not completely complied with Congress's demand to turn over documents related to Fast & Furious.

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
I will not argue this point further with you.


Heh, you may think you know more than me on this topic, but you don't. I actually watched some of Holder's testimony before Congress.



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09 Dec 2011, 3:43 am

visagrunt wrote:
Dishonest? Yes, most assuredly.

High crime or midemeanour? I don't buy it.


A "high crime" or "misdemeanour" is whatever Congress defines them to be. They do not exist in the law books.

In any case Reichsprotektor Hoelder runs a fascist shop. He is the darker version of Heinrich Himmler.

ruveyn



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