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Sweetleaf
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13 Dec 2011, 10:03 pm

WhiteWidow wrote:
I think when people say they have an issue with capitalism, they're really saying they have an issue with Crony Capitalism. Because we market our current economy as a capitalist, free market economy. Which was also marketed to us as the all giving market, a trickle down effect was supposed to occur throughout the years and feed the economy. It's back door deals and bad information that really irk me. You predict something one moment based on statistics and news. And then the next minute your down. They tell investors not to listen to the news reports because a lot of it is skewed information. You have to pick little bits and pieces out of a story like for example: Apple. Apple is coming out with an i cloud soon and people are putting up calls for it in august when it's released because thats when their stock is supposedly supposed to shoot up. However, other investors could see that story and see all the criticism that it's receiving from reuters or business week and they'll sell. Then they'll regret it later because they made the wrong predictions.


I am referring to whatever the hell kind of capitalism we have at the moment......I don't like the idea of pure capitalism either.


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WhiteWidow
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14 Dec 2011, 12:10 am

What is that you have against Capitalism? It's profit and greed that we built our current economic model around. Capitalism is essentially what you do every day, you just don't make back door deals or maybe you do I'm not sure



johansen
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14 Dec 2011, 7:20 am

artrat wrote:
I would never invest in the stock market because there is a good chance of it crashing again.


I'm currently invested in positions that will benefit from a crash, again.



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14 Dec 2011, 7:23 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I am referring to whatever the hell kind of capitalism we have at the moment......I don't like the idea of pure capitalism either.


i'd rather not get into an argument about pure capitalism, but i can assure you what we don't have is capitalism. crony or not, it hasn't been seen for around 70 years.

"I guess I don't see what is so fun about having to constantly compete for resources when we have the technology and resources to improve everyones lives"

its not fun, but neither is working an entire lifetime just to put food on the table.



Master_Pedant
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14 Dec 2011, 7:29 am

While I regard the stock market as a white-collar casino, I've been thinking of getting in it by buying a short on gold. I know this irrational hyper-inflationist Austrian panic has resulted in a colossally overvalued gold bubble, which has got to burst sooner or later. The problem with bubbles, however, is that one never knows exactly when they'll burst, so if I get in too early I could be eviscerated.


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johansen
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14 Dec 2011, 7:41 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
While I regard the stock market as a white-collar casino, I've been thinking of getting in it by buying a short on gold. I know this irrational hyper-inflationist Austrian panic has resulted in a colossally overvalued gold bubble, which has got to burst sooner or later. The problem with bubbles, however, is that one never knows exactly when they'll burst, so if I get in too early I could be eviscerated.


if anything i would be buying gold, and pt. pt if you think the industrial outlook looks good, i've been putting it off and don't hold any at the moment. take a look at the ten year chart on gold. we're nowhere near bubble territory, but perhaps another 2008 type fall, but the mechanics this time aren't the same.



ruveyn
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14 Dec 2011, 8:02 am

johansen wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
While I regard the stock market as a white-collar casino, I've been thinking of getting in it by buying a short on gold. I know this irrational hyper-inflationist Austrian panic has resulted in a colossally overvalued gold bubble, which has got to burst sooner or later. The problem with bubbles, however, is that one never knows exactly when they'll burst, so if I get in too early I could be eviscerated.


if anything i would be buying gold, and pt. pt if you think the industrial outlook looks good, i've been putting it off and don't hold any at the moment. take a look at the ten year chart on gold. we're nowhere near bubble territory, but perhaps another 2008 type fall, but the mechanics this time aren't the same.


That is not true investment. Buying gold will not add one nail or bolt to the productive economy. Buying gold is a form of gambling. You are betting that the cash price will either remain steady or go up faster than inflation.

ruveyn



Sunshine7
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14 Dec 2011, 8:19 am

Quote:
I want to better understand options trading however. I understand so far that they're essentially bets on mathematically forumlated strike prices derived from the number of stocks in each block and multiplied and subtracted from the debit and the cost of each share.


Find out more about options and options trading strategies here: http://www.optionseducation.org/

There's a free online course.
Don't bother with the deep mathematics, cos you don't need it anyway and it only works for very deep markets. The same way you don't really need to know Bayesian statistics for poker - it may help, but not really.

I think gold is on the up simply because the negatively correlated markets are down, so there's a mass readjustment of portfolios everywhere.

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That is not true investment. Buying gold will not add one nail or bolt to the productive economy.


Very little of the GDP comprises of output from the "productive economy", if such a thing even exists. The army, for e.g., doesn't "add a single nail or bolt to the productive economy" either, in fact it's a major drain on resources. It's only around to make sure that those who add nails and bolts can do so in peace.



ruveyn
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14 Dec 2011, 8:21 am

Sunshine7 wrote:

Very little of the GDP comprises of output from the "productive economy", if such a thing even exists. The army, for e.g., doesn't "add a single nail or bolt to the productive economy" either, in fact it's a major drain on resources. It's only around to make sure that those who add nails and bolts can do so in peace.


That is true in the literal sense. But having an army keeps thugs from stealing or destroying our nails, bolts and productive economy. You could also make the same comment about the police force. Protection is something required by the lamentable fact that there are Evil People out there who mean to harm us.

ruveyn



Sunshine7
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14 Dec 2011, 8:37 am

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Protection is something required by the lamentable fact that there are Evil People out there who mean to harm us.


Yup. Same with legal services, HR, etc...they don't increase the amount of resources at an economy's disposal, they increase the efficiency with which those resources can be used.
To your original point:
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Buying gold is a form of gambling. You are betting that the cash price will either remain steady or go up faster than inflation.


True, but only one side of the story. I buy gold, for instance, as a hedge against a downturn in equities. Some people use it to speculate, which you've indicated before that you're not a fan of.

What is gambling? It's the wagering of money, in an environment of incomplete information.
What's investment? Ditto. (You're actually quite right in the sense that when traders talk, they commonly use gambling nomenclature like "betting", etc.)
What's getting a job, getting married, having kids? It's wagering quite a large chunk of your future happiness that through getting a job/spouse/children, your life will be better than it currently is (imagine the downside risk of that bet. not funny).

It's not gambling that's bad, it's gambling addiction.



ruveyn
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14 Dec 2011, 8:43 am

Sunshine7 wrote:
What's getting a job, getting married, having kids? It's wagering quite a large chunk of your future happiness that through getting a job/spouse/children, your life will be better than it currently is (imagine the downside risk of that bet. not funny).

It's not gambling that's bad, it's gambling addiction.


He that hath wife and children hath given hostages to fortune, for they are impediments to great enterprises, either of virtue or mischief. Certainly the best works and of greatest merit for the public have proceeded from the unmarried or childless men, which both in affection and means have married and endowed the public.

Francis Bacon (1561-1626)



Sunshine7
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14 Dec 2011, 8:47 am

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He that hath wife and children hath given hostages to fortune, for they are impediments to great enterprises, either of virtue or mischief. Certainly the best works and of greatest merit for the public have proceeded from the unmarried or childless men, which both in affection and means have married and endowed the public.


I can't tell whether you're tryin to agree or disagree, but that is pretty funny.
I admit I had to read it twice to understand what it was talking about.



ruveyn
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14 Dec 2011, 8:51 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

I am referring to whatever the hell kind of capitalism we have at the moment......I don't like the idea of pure capitalism either.


What purity would you prefer? Socialism? Communism? The Christian agape?

As long as you live among the hominids you are going to have to put up with some manifestation and consequence of property.

Welcome to The Monkey House!

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Sweetleaf
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14 Dec 2011, 8:59 am

WhiteWidow wrote:
What is that you have against Capitalism? It's profit and greed that we built our current economic model around. Capitalism is essentially what you do every day, you just don't make back door deals or maybe you do I'm not sure



Because in order for it to work there has to be different financial classes, they way I see it we probably have the resources and technology to attemt to provide for everyones basic needs and possibly increase everyones standard of living. I disagree with having a system based on profit and greed.

I don't see how capitalism is what I specifically do every day, I realise I do buy things like food or beer or whatever, so unfortunatly I cannot really say I am totally free of the system......though I do try to support more smaller more or less local buisnesses then the huge corporations........I don't feel that capitalism really reflects my behavior though.


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Sweetleaf
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14 Dec 2011, 9:01 am

johansen wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I am referring to whatever the hell kind of capitalism we have at the moment......I don't like the idea of pure capitalism either.


i'd rather not get into an argument about pure capitalism, but i can assure you what we don't have is capitalism. crony or not, it hasn't been seen for around 70 years.

"I guess I don't see what is so fun about having to constantly compete for resources when we have the technology and resources to improve everyones lives"

its not fun, but neither is working an entire lifetime just to put food on the table.


And what is good about pure capitalism? I know what that is and I don't see how that would be any better than the corporatocracy we have now.


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