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techstepgenr8tion
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27 Feb 2012, 12:44 pm

Declension wrote:
Alain de Botton, like Karen Armstrong, has transcended reality and now lives in an imaginary world where religious people don't actually have religious beliefs, but instead are doing some kind of exercise routine. Maybe he should go outside more often.

I don't think you've been to a Catholic church as many times as I was growing up. If you ever do go please watch how people act, both inside and outside of church, and let me know how seriously they're taking eternal judgment.


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27 Feb 2012, 12:47 pm

That too many people can abuse others while believing or making excuses for their evil deeds. What evil deeds are religions giving pass to right now? I could hardly list them all. :x Doesn't mean I can't try, right?

Killings
-children born without color
-those who become friends with or love someone outside of the group
-being gay or lesbian
-being a girl
-female spouse
-a member of the tribe who they think cursed the tribe (like that infant one group burried alive! :x)
-"He told me to" or "They'll go to heaven this way."

Pedophile activity
-marrying and selling your 8-12 year old daughter. (you BASTARD!)
-marrying against consent

Other abuse
-hurting or mistreating a child for being the witch they aren't, and forcing them to "confess"
-casting out demons for something the other was born with and can't help
-teaching a child that they were born as nothing but utter garbage, and making sure they believe it
-praying to heal a horrible injury instead of going to the emergency room
-hindering education, and withholding evidence
-keeping child from emotional attachments so you can feel satisfied religiously yourself (Like my mother and her two siblings have had done to them)
-Slavery
-Imprisoning, torturing, and punishing rape victims



Last edited by LiendaBalla on 27 Feb 2012, 1:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.

techstepgenr8tion
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27 Feb 2012, 12:50 pm

pandabear wrote:
Religions may be "outmoded", but I am not one to feel terribly constrained by what is necessarily à la mode.

And that's a good point. One could but ice cream on asphalt or a mailbox if they really wanted to; nothing's directly holding up the physics of that from occurring.


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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


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27 Feb 2012, 12:51 pm

Fnord wrote:
Here's one man's perspective...

Alain de Botton wrote:
Probably the most boring question you can ask about religion is whether or not the whole thing is "true." Unfortunately, recent public discussions on religion have focused obsessively on precisely this issue, with a hardcore group of fanatical believers pitting themselves against an equally small band of fanatical atheists.

I prefer a different tack. To my mind, of course, no part of religion is true in the sense of being God-given. It seems clear that there is no holy ghost, spirit, geist or divine emanation. The real issue is not whether God exists or not, but where one takes the argument to if one concludes he doesn't. I believe it must be possible to remain a committed atheist and nevertheless to find religions sporadically useful, interesting and consoling -- and be curious as to the possibilities of importing certain of their ideas and practices into the secular realm.

He goes on to say that Athiests are right to disbelieve religious dogma. But he says they make the mistake of rejecting the benefits religion brings. He claims that Religion offers consolation, ritual, spirituality that atheists can adopt; and that Religions have been the most successful educational movements.

I say that Religion is a crutch, and that the only real "success" that Religion has is the same as that of any other parasitic infestation - that is, Religion brings benefit only to the religious, and not to the rest of us, whether or not we believe in a Supreme Being.

But what IS religion, exactly? If religion is a set of rules and rituals in place to earn a place next to God, incur God's/a god's favor, or manipulate the divine into granting wishes, then I don't follow religion at all and Christianity as I understand it isn't even a religion. If religion is an ongoing concern with the relationship between God and mankind, then I can accept that.

I don't view a simple religion built on the Bible with regard to Christ's teachings as much of a crutch. One of the most significant teachings of the Bible is everything comes from God and that all humanity is dependent on God's providence. A crutch is just an aid. Religion or faith in the sense I'm referring to would be the actual working legs a believer needs to stand on in the first place.



techstepgenr8tion
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27 Feb 2012, 1:04 pm

LiendaBalla wrote:
That too many people can abuse others while believing or making excuses for their evil deeds. What evil deeds are religions giving pass to right now? I could hardly list them all. :x Doesn't mean I can't try, right?

Killings
-children born without color
-those who become friends with or love someone outside of the group
-being gay or lesbian
-being a girl
-female spouse
-a member of the tribe who they think cursed the tribe
-"He told me to" or "They'll go to heaven this way."

Pedophile activity
-marrying and selling your 8-12 year old daughter. (you BASTARD!)
-marrying against consent

Other abuse
-hurting or mistreating a child for being the witch they aren't, and forcing them to "confess"
-casting out demons for something the other was born with and can't help
-teaching a child that they were born as nothing but utter garbage, and making sure they believe it
-praying to heal a horrible injury instead of going to the emergency room
-hindering education, and withholding evidence
-keeping child from emotional attachments so you can feel satisfied religiously yourself (Like my mother and her two siblings have had done to them)
-Slavery
-Imprisoning, torturing, and punishing rape victims

Almost as chilling as an account of what hazel-eyed people have done through history


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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


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27 Feb 2012, 1:07 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Religions may be "outmoded", but I am not one to feel terribly constrained by what is necessarily à la mode.

And that's a good point. One could but ice cream on asphalt or a mailbox if they really wanted to; nothing's directly holding up the physics of that from occurring.


I think he means he's not concerned by what is fashionable, not the use of ice cream. But maybe you are making a joke and I'm missing it.

Fashionable or not, what's really hurting religion is the internet. The loss of religiosity appears strongest on the bleeding edge of the internet generation. I think the creationists did the intitial harm on the internet, but they seem to have withdrawn to a large degree. They are certainly quietier on the net than 10-15 years ago. But day in and day out on the internet, faith is picked apart and believers are chased around by atheists. People see it in a way they never could before.

Even some church leaders see it as as threat.



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27 Feb 2012, 1:09 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Almost as chilling as an account of what hazel-eyed people have done through history


:roll:
How about historic study on good ol' Africa, India, and the middle east?



Last edited by LiendaBalla on 27 Feb 2012, 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

techstepgenr8tion
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27 Feb 2012, 1:16 pm

simon_says wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Religions may be "outmoded", but I am not one to feel terribly constrained by what is necessarily à la mode.

And that's a good point. One could but ice cream on asphalt or a mailbox if they really wanted to; nothing's directly holding up the physics of that from occurring.


I think he means he's not concerned by what is fashionable, not the use of ice cream. But maybe you are making a joke and I'm missing it.

For once I was actually complimenting him - his joke stays sound as an analogy even under the weight of shenanigans.

simon_says wrote:
Fashionable or not, what's really hurting religion is the internet. The loss of religiosity appears strongest on the bleeding edge of the internet generation. I think the creationists did the intitial harm on the internet, but they seem to have withdrawn to a large degree. They are certainly quietier on the net than 10-15 years ago. But day in and day out on the internet, faith is picked apart and believers are chased around by atheists. People see it in a way they never could before.

Even some church leaders see it as as threat.

Its great to have a place to exchange ideas as such freely, and if there is no God have that really brought out as people all over the world of the same mind can get together and talk about it in peace. The danger is creating a sophomoric echo-chamber where people start losing accuracy in their assessment of reality from braggadocio. Especially if atheists are right, they've gotta realize that not being ready for success and mismanaging the reaction can set back their own goals, hopes, and dreams for society by decades. If they're smart enough to see that there's no God I'd love to think they can also be smart enough to check their catharsis and self-adulation but, no one controls the next person and only each person can watch their own actions and try to set a good example.


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techstepgenr8tion
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27 Feb 2012, 1:24 pm

LiendaBalla wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Almost as chilling as an account of what hazel-eyed people have done through history


How about historic study on good ol' Africa, India, and the middle east?

Could be, I just know that the list of things done by people born to Connecticut has been a real eye opener for me recently. Connecticut is a lot closer than all those other places and they don't have a creed or color so they could be lurking in the shadows anywhere, even working right next to me and I'd never know it. Luckily I was born in Michigan so going by the number and variety of crimes committed by birth Michiganians I'd simply be too much gangsta for them to handle anyway. 8)


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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


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27 Feb 2012, 1:28 pm

simon_says wrote:
Fashionable or not, what's really hurting religion is the internet. The loss of religiosity appears strongest on the bleeding edge of the internet generation. I think the creationists did the intitial harm on the internet, but they seem to have withdrawn to a large degree. They are certainly quietier on the net than 10-15 years ago. But day in and day out on the internet, faith is picked apart and believers are chased around by atheists. People see it in a way they never could before.

Even some church leaders see it as as threat.


Makes one wonder regarding some law propositions lately.



techstepgenr8tion
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27 Feb 2012, 1:31 pm

Its really tough to tell - a mommy/daddy state would have the same maternal impulses to save us from ourselves.


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27 Feb 2012, 9:53 pm

*head to desk* :eew:



techstepgenr8tion
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27 Feb 2012, 10:00 pm

I'm genuinely confused; not sure if that comment (now removed) was directed at me or not. If it is: all kinds of abuse happens to kids of parents who are alcoholics, drug addicts, just flat-out selfers who can't parent right, in other words it happens all the time without religion just as much as non-abuse happens all the time with religion as well. IMHO, if that was my question to answer you're making an arbitrarily black and white line where none exist.


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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin


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28 Feb 2012, 5:22 am

Fnord wrote:
Here's one man's perspective...

Alain de Botton wrote:
Probably the most boring question you can ask about religion is whether or not the whole thing is "true." Unfortunately, recent public discussions on religion have focused obsessively on precisely this issue, with a hardcore group of fanatical believers pitting themselves against an equally small band of fanatical atheists.

I prefer a different tack. To my mind, of course, no part of religion is true in the sense of being God-given. It seems clear that there is no holy ghost, spirit, geist or divine emanation. The real issue is not whether God exists or not, but where one takes the argument to if one concludes he doesn't. I believe it must be possible to remain a committed atheist and nevertheless to find religions sporadically useful, interesting and consoling -- and be curious as to the possibilities of importing certain of their ideas and practices into the secular realm.

He goes on to say that Athiests are right to disbelieve religious dogma. But he says they make the mistake of rejecting the benefits religion brings. He claims that Religion offers consolation, ritual, spirituality that atheists can adopt; and that Religions have been the most successful educational movements.

I say that Religion is a crutch, and that the only real "success" that Religion has is the same as that of any other parasitic infestation - that is, Religion brings benefit only to the religious, and not to the rest of us, whether or not we believe in a Supreme Being.


False consolation, ritual for the sake of ritual and intangible spirituality that leads nowhere and answers nothing is not what I would call benefitting, save for those who believe that ignorance really is bliss. And I wonder which method he used to gauge religion's effectiveness in education.

I think for most people, religion fulfills their need to belong somewhere. Whether it's true or not, is of secondary importance. People can't be so stupid that they perceive religion as 'true'. Not outside the bible belt anyway. It is a way of bonding a community. A way that is in dire need of replacement.



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28 Feb 2012, 6:34 am

Fnord wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
One could make the argument that atheism is a crutch as well. Diehard atheists believe in their cause, and yes I use the word "believe" intentionally. I don't consider that a crutch though, but the fact that atheists find strength in their atheism is perhaps something to think about.

Atheism is as much of a crutch as not collecting stamps is a hobby.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I mean, what is so bad about a crutch?

1. The crutch of religion identifies you as an intellectual cripple.
2. Crutches can be used as weapons.
3. Crutches are often used by scam artists to solicit money from gullible strangers.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I am deliberately playing devil's advocate. I just don't think the idea that religion is a crutch is a very good argument for atheists.

Once you give up religion - once you've thrown away the crutch - you will be amazed at how well you can stand on your own, and how much you can accomplish without the inconvenience of having to rely on a crutch.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
Buddhism is a religion that I see a lot of good in - more good than bad. Christianity I see good points is a well - but sometimes I wonder if the bad outweighs the good.

The best thing about religion is that it keeps religious people off the streets for a few hours every week.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
But really I have known people who have said they have turned their life around by finding God. Is it really my right to tear them down by saying that God is just a crutch? I use crutches all the time. So do all atheists. A crutch is just not a valid argument.

Do not equate God with religion, as they are not the same thing. Conflating the two invalidates your argument.

Besides, what crutch do "all" Atheists use? Education? Facts? Reality? These are not crutches. The first two are tools, while reality is what's left when you stop believing in unprovable things.


People have no idea what they do not know. A person does not know the inner truths within themself. A person will never find them.

The person I was talking about converted to Christianity and she changed her life around. Her subjective truth is more important than any subjective truth I could impose on her. She is a good person. She does not use her "crutch" as a weapon, as some religious people. She is not that kind of religious person. Are you saying that this person is an intellectual cripple? In that case, I would have to say you are very very wrong. She is not an intellectual cripple. And she is not a bad person. But she has found some support from her religion... perhaps it is just social aspects, but perhaps it is something deeper?

I don't know, I think Christianity is full of evil, but when I see people say that is has turned their lives around, and I recognize these people as good people, I am inclined to question my own judgements.

There are plenty of people who use crutches as weapons, but not all religious people engage in this kind of behavior.



Last edited by heavenlyabyss on 28 Feb 2012, 8:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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28 Feb 2012, 6:49 am

When I was talking about atheists who use their atheism as crutch, I will reiterate that I was kind of twisting words around. But to find strength in atheism is a crutch in a weird sort of way. To find strength in the belief of nothing is sometimes used a way of feeling intellectually superior to others who believe in "nonsense."

I didn't grow up in a religious environment so I am perhaps naive.

But there is more to this world than cold hard facts. Spirituality is important as well. If a person were to only see the cold hard facts all the time, they woud self-destruct in a ball of fire. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not, but people do not understand themselves, they never will.