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vanhalenkurtz
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31 May 2012, 3:07 am

I've had a special relationship with birds all my life. If I could be one this second, hasta la vista baby.


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31 May 2012, 8:12 am

I have always preferred animals over people. One of my earliest memories is of my parents pouring boiling water over ants, and filling jars with jam for wasps to drown in, just because their existence inconvenienced my parents. I felt sad for the insects pain and demise, and thought my parents were cruel.
I think that ( most ) humans are cruel, selfish, shallow and two faced, well at least lots of NT's are! This is from my personal experience, observation, and studying the last 2,000 years of History. For example, just observe the school playground, the workplace, and consider all the atrocities which humans have commited against other people, animals and the environment. Animals are especially abused because they have no "rights", and I help in what little way I can by taking on rescue dogs who have been abused by humans. I love all those dogs far more than I could love any human. I support AR and a plant diet (no I don't know if plants have feelings!). In fact, AR is my main obsession and I think about the pain and suffering of animals caused by humans all the time, it drives me mad but I can't stop it. It also makes me hate humans which I am trying to stop doing because it is counter productive.
I don't mean to offend anyone as I'm sure there are nice, caring people out there, but I can only speak from my experience of life, much of it experiencing the nastiness and dishonesty of other people. But it could be my social incompetency bringing this out in people.


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persian85033
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31 May 2012, 9:24 am

Aprilviolets wrote:
I feel more for Animals I support World wide fund for nature and other animal groups then I would world vision.
Animals being killed by so called trophy hunters(I call them savages) angers me as does the barbaric fur trade.

I've always been fascinated by the Big Cats especially and it saddens me when they're killed just because they go to the villages in africa I think the villages shouldn't be allowed to encroach on the Animals' habitat in the first place.


I absolutely dislike tropy hunters. What's so neat about having killed something just for fun? I've never understood why people kill. I can only suppose it must be to amuse themselves? I just can't find a logical reason.

I actually read that people were angry because big cats were killing off their livestock, so that they thought that something should be done, like killing the big cats. What they forgot to mention was that they were killing wildebeest, zebra, buffalo, gazelle, and all the other herbivores the predators ate. That was why they were attacking people and livestock. They have to eat after all.

In my neighborhood, there are lots of homeless kitties. People leave them when they move. It makes me so mad. I found my puppy that way. Some jerk adopted him, then a couple of days later decided he didn't want him and just put him on the street. He had only just been weaned! He was so small, and was just about to go out into the traffic! He could have been hit by a car! My parents wanted to find someone to take him, or take him to a shelter, but I said he had already been abandoned once, and deserved a second chance. That and I fell in love with him as soon as I saw him. I would not allow them to take him to a shelter where he might not be adopted. So they let me keep him. I know I can't save all the homeless animals, but I can make a difference in one's life. Now my Moncho has a home, and a loving family who loves him. Our other dog, Paco, has a companion now as well. And my cat, Sissy has another dog to believe herself superior to. :lol:


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31 May 2012, 10:43 am

persian85033 wrote:
Aprilviolets wrote:
I feel more for Animals I support World wide fund for nature and other animal groups then I would world vision.
Animals being killed by so called trophy hunters(I call them savages) angers me as does the barbaric fur trade.

I've always been fascinated by the Big Cats especially and it saddens me when they're killed just because they go to the villages in africa I think the villages shouldn't be allowed to encroach on the Animals' habitat in the first place.


I absolutely dislike tropy hunters. What's so neat about having killed something just for fun? I've never understood why people kill. I can only suppose it must be to amuse themselves? I just can't find a logical reason.

I actually read that people were angry because big cats were killing off their livestock, so that they thought that something should be done, like killing the big cats. What they forgot to mention was that they were killing wildebeest, zebra, buffalo, gazelle, and all the other herbivores the predators ate. That was why they were attacking people and livestock. They have to eat after all.

In my neighborhood, there are lots of homeless kitties. People leave them when they move. It makes me so mad. I found my puppy that way. Some jerk adopted him, then a couple of days later decided he didn't want him and just put him on the street. He had only just been weaned! He was so small, and was just about to go out into the traffic! He could have been hit by a car! My parents wanted to find someone to take him, or take him to a shelter, but I said he had already been abandoned once, and deserved a second chance. That and I fell in love with him as soon as I saw him. I would not allow them to take him to a shelter where he might not be adopted. So they let me keep him. I know I can't save all the homeless animals, but I can make a difference in one's life. Now my Moncho has a home, and a loving family who loves him. Our other dog, Paco, has a companion now as well. And my cat, Sissy has another dog to believe herself superior to. :lol:

I used to bring home cats until I had nearly ten of them. My mother and her boyfriend forced me to leave them behind when we moved into a new house (I was fifteen at the time) and it broke my heart. The least they could have done was let me find new homes for them. I hated that man for years, and rejoiced when I heard that he died.


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31 May 2012, 11:25 am

persian85033 wrote:
Aprilviolets wrote:
Animals being killed by so called trophy hunters(I call them savages) angers me as does the barbaric fur trade.



I absolutely dislike tropy hunters. What's so neat about having killed something just for fun? I've never understood why people kill. I can only suppose it must be to amuse themselves? I just can't find a logical reason.


I may have few friends in this thread because I'm a hunter.
I also don't like "trophy hunters". I'm not one. I hunt animals because I intend on eating them.
It's natural. We're part of the food chain. I'm just bypassing the middle man.

Having said that, I do feel a lot of empathy for animals. Sometimes it seems like I have more for them than humans.
I have made some bad shots and the animal suffered more than it would have with a good shot. I ALWAYS feel really bad when that happens. I hate seeing an animal in pain. I know it seems a bit contradictory, but that's how I feel. I love animals but I also love hunting.


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Juliana
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31 May 2012, 11:41 am

I have a lot of empathy for animals and it pains me to see or hear about them being in pain. It is the main reason why I became vegetarian as a preschooler, and why I am still a vegan today. I can't conceive of harming an animal. I am extremely disturbed by animal death. It is one of the strongest emotions I feel.



persian85033
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31 May 2012, 1:26 pm

jetbuilder wrote:
persian85033 wrote:
Aprilviolets wrote:
Animals being killed by so called trophy hunters(I call them savages) angers me as does the barbaric fur trade.



I absolutely dislike tropy hunters. What's so neat about having killed something just for fun? I've never understood why people kill. I can only suppose it must be to amuse themselves? I just can't find a logical reason.


I may have few friends in this thread because I'm a hunter.
I also don't like "trophy hunters". I'm not one. I hunt animals because I intend on eating them.
It's natural. We're part of the food chain. I'm just bypassing the middle man.

Having said that, I do feel a lot of empathy for animals. Sometimes it seems like I have more for them than humans.
I have made some bad shots and the animal suffered more than it would have with a good shot. I ALWAYS feel really bad when that happens. I hate seeing an animal in pain. I know it seems a bit contradictory, but that's how I feel. I love animals but I also love hunting.


It's not hunting that I'm against. If you're hunting like to eat venison, that's one thing. After all, that's the reason predators are so important in any ecosystem. They keep the herds in balance, and that way like in winter when food is scarce, there's more for the healthy animals. Just imagine what would happen if you removed lions, cheetahs, leopards, hyenas, crocodiles and all other predators in the Mara. Pretty soon the herbivores are going to finish off all the grass, not to mention that the rivers would be thick with dead wildebeest and zebra who drowned when the herd was crossing the river.

What I dislike is poachers and people who kill animals to keep as trophies or like poachers who kill a rhino to sell its horn, or leopards for their skins. And so many of the animals they kill are endangered. They're only doing it for money. And the people who buy the stuff as well. I mean, how much is a rhino worth on the black market?


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31 May 2012, 1:36 pm

I don't really have empathy for anything.

I mean, I eat animals; cute moo cows, porky pigs, and hell, it was part of a little lamb tonight.

How can I do that if I have empathy?

I feel sorry for the animals that I hurt, like stepping on bugs and such; which would be closer to guilt than other emotions. Sorry for hurting you, and all that.

Emotions are confusing and far too selective and mediated by the community at large, and also what they deem as "empathetic" (what comes under such).



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31 May 2012, 2:00 pm

For me it really depends. If I'm reading a story and there is a sympathetic animal in it, I feel much worse when something bad happens to it than I do a sympathetic human character in the same or another story. I was much like a lot of you, in having more empathy for animals than people when I was a child, up until I was about 15 or so, and then I grew out of it, but when reading a story etc, I will revert right back to that state.

When it comes to real life, it really just depends. The cuteness factor is very important to me when feeling empathy. Also, for some reason I hate small dogs and feel no empathy for them whatsoever, and very little for cats. Medium to large dogs are the ones I'll feel the most for. That's probably because I've had personal items, including the carpets in my home, ruined completely by small dogs and several cats (which were not mine).

I do value my family and even some of my possessions such as my home and the ability to live in it comfortably, more than I do any animals, even my own dogs who I love very much. At the moment my dogs have torn up the siding in the back of my house, and one won't go outside to pee. Both have brought in so many fleas and ticks that it's impossible to sit on the furniture without getting ticks, and they are systimatically tearing up the back of my house and digging even more holes in my back yard because we have put them out there. I'm seriously considering giving them to somebody who can take them both, because we cannot afford constant spraying of the yard, nor more pest control in the house. We are barely getting by as it is. You can trust me when I say I have tried everything in my power to solve this without finding them a new home. I don't want to, but I can't have my floors ruined nor expose my family to disease from fleas and ticks. It's hard to find a home for two full grown male wolf hybrids though, and I won't give them to a shelter that puts them down nor that won't find them a home together, in the country. They also will have to be fed actual raw meat several times a week, not just a dog food diet.

As for animals in general, if somebody were to present me with two buttons, one which will kill half the worlds population of people, both good and bad and just randomly, and one that did the same with animals, I would have to push the one for the animals if I was forced to choose. I do value human life over animal life in general. I don't see iit as either good or bad to value one over the other, although many people wouldn't be able to survive without other humans around but would be able to survive without animals around. I do know that humans and animals are both needed for our survival, but if I had to choose a life where I only came into contact with other humans or one where I only came into contact with animals, I'd choose to be in contact with humans.


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Samual
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31 May 2012, 2:21 pm

I love my Holly. The cats are pretty cool too.

Greb wrote:
friedmacguffins wrote:
Is there a(n apolitical) word or concept for having more empathy toward animals than people?


Autism? :)


Nice.



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31 May 2012, 3:48 pm

Greb wrote:
friedmacguffins wrote:
Is there a(n apolitical) word or concept for having more empathy toward animals than people?


Autism? :)



LMAO couldn't have said it better myself :lol:



persian85033
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31 May 2012, 4:49 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
I don't see iit as either good or bad to value one over the other, although many people wouldn't be able to survive without other humans around but would be able to survive without animals around.


Exactly how long would people survive before they consumed ALL resources and Earth is destroyed by waste and pollution and there is nothing left? And not just the pollution, either, but if half of all the animals die, it would throw everything off balance and likely eventually everything will be gone. Ah, yes, I can see a world with very very few animals and many many people. Earth wouldn't even be called Earth anymore, but Polluted Paradise, and the atmosphere officially a Smog Soup, completely devoid of life.


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31 May 2012, 5:30 pm

persian85033 wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
I don't see iit as either good or bad to value one over the other, although many people wouldn't be able to survive without other humans around but would be able to survive without animals around.


Exactly how long would people survive before they consumed ALL resources and Earth is destroyed by waste and pollution and there is nothing left?

That example means having animals around you, not having them still in the world. That is different than the "push the button and half of this population dies" example. By the quoted example, I am asking how many people would actually be able to survive without human contact at all? By human contact, I also mean the benefits of work done by other humans. Such as food in the grocery store, power made by power plants staffed by humans, medicine made by companies that are staffed by humans, etc.


And not just the pollution, either, but if half of all the animals die, it would throw everything off balance and likely eventually everything will be gone. Ah, yes, I can see a world with very very few animals and many many people. Earth wouldn't even be called Earth anymore, but Polluted Paradise, and the atmosphere officially a Smog Soup, completely devoid of life.


No, I don't think everything would be gone. I do think that humans would have to conserve more than we do now though. Also, please remember that animals reproduce and replace the half that would be gone from the other example within a few years.

Also, those who live here are the ones who called it "Earth", and I don't really see them changing the name in a fit of pique.

So, how long would you be able to survive, on your own, without help at all from any other humans, and only our helpful animal friends for help? Do you have the knowledge to harvest the seeds and start your own garden to grow your own food? Do you know what to gather right now to eat, before the food is grown? You would need that knowledge within the first few days. No time to research it, no internet either. Also, do you know where to find clean drinking water? You would need that even quicker.

The bottom line is, for those who value animal life above human life, without the knowledge and work of other humans, most of us would be unable to survive for even a few weeks. I can't see Bambi removing a burst appendix or explaining how to store vegetables for the winter or helping you build a house without tools.


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31 May 2012, 7:03 pm

I cried harder when my 15 year old cat died than when my grandpa died and I was pretty close to him.



persian85033
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01 Jun 2012, 9:02 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
persian85033 wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
I don't see iit as either good or bad to value one over the other, although many people wouldn't be able to survive without other humans around but would be able to survive without animals around.


Exactly how long would people survive before they consumed ALL resources and Earth is destroyed by waste and pollution and there is nothing left?

That example means having animals around you, not having them still in the world. That is different than the "push the button and half of this population dies" example. By the quoted example, I am asking how many people would actually be able to survive without human contact at all? By human contact, I also mean the benefits of work done by other humans. Such as food in the grocery store, power made by power plants staffed by humans, medicine made by companies that are staffed by humans, etc.


And not just the pollution, either, but if half of all the animals die, it would throw everything off balance and likely eventually everything will be gone. Ah, yes, I can see a world with very very few animals and many many people. Earth wouldn't even be called Earth anymore, but Polluted Paradise, and the atmosphere officially a Smog Soup, completely devoid of life.


No, I don't think everything would be gone. I do think that humans would have to conserve more than we do now though. Also, please remember that animals reproduce and replace the half that would be gone from the other example within a few years.

Also, those who live here are the ones who called it "Earth", and I don't really see them changing the name in a fit of pique.

So, how long would you be able to survive, on your own, without help at all from any other humans, and only our helpful animal friends for help? Do you have the knowledge to harvest the seeds and start your own garden to grow your own food? Do you know what to gather right now to eat, before the food is grown? You would need that knowledge within the first few days. No time to research it, no internet either. Also, do you know where to find clean drinking water? You would need that even quicker.

The bottom line is, for those who value animal life above human life, without the knowledge and work of other humans, most of us would be unable to survive for even a few weeks. I can't see Bambi removing a burst appendix or explaining how to store vegetables for the winter or helping you build a house without tools.


Then how come animals such as addax and certain subspecies of rhinos have had their population reduced to only less than three hundred, with some there being even less than four in the wild?

I do know that humans do a lot for each other, like some running stores, producing crops, and if most humans were to disappear, it would be disastrous for all humans. But humanity as a species is not exactly smart. I mean only look at history! So many wars, for example, and no one's ever learned anything from them. History just repeats itself. Humans are very nonsensical. Humans for some reason feel much more superior to other creatures, and show little respect for their own, even. I mean, you see people abandoning or abusing their own children. I mean, who would have thought that it's much safer to leave my puppy with our older dog than it would be to leave a child even with a relative. Yes, Paco does tell Moncho in no uncertain terms when he doesn't want to play, and when he tells him to get away from his food bowl and go eat out of his own bowl, but Paco would never abuse, kill, or hurt him just for fun like people do. I've never been able to understand why people love to do evil things. I can only assume they find it amusing. Do you think hurting other creatures for amusement is right? Or funny?


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01 Jun 2012, 11:19 am

persian85033 wrote:
Then how come animals such as addax and certain subspecies of rhinos have had their population reduced to only less than three hundred, with some there being even less than four in the wild?

Supspecies. There's your answer. There are plenty of other rhinos. I'm aware that there are some endangered animals. That wasn't my point. It had nothing to do with the fact that most animals would have their original numbers replaces within a few years while humans would not.

I do know that humans do a lot for each other, like some running stores, producing crops, and if most humans were to disappear, it would be disastrous for all humans. But humanity as a species is not exactly smart.

You are right. We are not exactly smart. We have only created all of technology, medicine, philosophy, scientific learning, art, I could go on listing the silly, useless, stupid things that we have humans have created, but it would be pointless. In more ways than one.

I mean only look at history! So many wars, for example, and no one's ever learned anything from them. History just repeats itself.

True. Animals never kill each other except to eat each other. They have no need to kill in self defense because other animals don't attack them over things like territory or mates. I mean you are right!! !! All our wars!! !! We fought over who was going to rule a land. Territory. Animals never, ever do that. Too civilized. Well, you know, I think back in maybe 1278 was it, a wolf pack attacked and killed another wolf pack over territory, but they learned from it. Wolves don't do that anymore.


Humans are very nonsensical. Humans for some reason feel much more superior to other creatures, and show little respect for their own, even. I mean, you see people abandoning or abusing their own children.

I agree that some humans do cruel and crazy things, like child abuse or simply being crazy enough to enjoy killing others, like seriel killers, etc. However as a race, that is the exception and not the norm. If it were the normal standard or even considered within normal limits for the human race to do those things, then society would not consider them to be crimes.

I mean, who would have thought that it's much safer to leave my puppy with our older dog than it would be to leave a child even with a relative.

That's a false statement in that it implies that it's much safer to leave any puppy with any any older dog than it is to leave any child with any relative. It's not. It's probably the exception as well. My dogs would kill any puppy or any other dog that was brought into this house or the yard. I know several people whose dogs are that way. Those dogs are territorial. They may just be throwbacks who are part of the small handfull of dogs who didn't learn from the wolf territorial war of 1278. If you were to leave a child with me, or anyone I know, the child would be perfectly safe and happy when you returned. Abusive relatives exist, and in far too big a number, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Yes, Paco does tell Moncho in no uncertain terms when he doesn't want to play, and when he tells him to get away from his food bowl and go eat out of his own bowl, but Paco would never abuse, kill, or hurt him just for fun like people do.

You are lucky you have a dog who isn't territorial. Many dogs are territorial though. Many dogs will kill another dog simply because they see him somewhere, even if it's not on their own territory. Many mother dogs will eat their own seemingly healthy puppies. My son had a dog that would eat every puppy she gave birth to if you didn't take them away from her right after the birth and feed them b***h's milk yourself, from a bottle. It's not an uncommon thing, even with healthy puppies.

I've never been able to understand why people love to do evil things. I can only assume they find it amusing.

From what I understand about people who seem to enjoy doing evil things, I gather they are some type of psychopath. Many of them don't feel normal feelings and some get enjoyment from other's pain. Some people, who only kill once, do so in a fit of uncontrolable rage or jealousy or some other overpowering emotion that they are unable to control at the moment. Neither excuses it, but it's probably the closest that the rest of us have to understanding why someone would do those things.

Do you think hurting other creatures for amusement is right? Or funny?


Well that was a gigantic leap of illogical assumption. No, I don't. How would you even feel the need to ask that question based on my post? This is why these types of conversationss are as futile as nailing jello to a tree. :roll:


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