Rape, Victim-Blaming, and... random stuff about religion

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HisDivineMajesty
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24 Jun 2012, 9:19 pm

MODERATOR NOTE: this post veered off-topic and sparked a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with the OP's question. Enjoy your new thread.


DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
No one is blaming men for anybody's virginity or lack of ability to get laid, (or I'm not at least) The issue is social anxiety,cultural ideas about feminine virginity, and at this point a discussion of why the original discussion has a hard time happening here.
and to think I felt bad for initially saying this thread about a woman having a concern was going to turn into what about teh menz...turns out I was just too early (and it's quite possible I did the equivalent of saying bloody mary in the bathroom mirror 3 times)


I'm all of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse when it comes to dragging on something infinitely, and that's exactly what I'm planning to do now. You're saying nobody's blaming men for not having sex - you're wrong. I'm blaming myself, a lot of my friends are blaming themselves, we're blaming each other, and we're being blamed by women. It's just not at all attractive for women to have a man who wasn't able to get another woman at a normal age.

The original discussion turned into this rancid excuse for an argument because the original poster seems to forget what's between her legs. If you have a vagina, are alive and you're under 70, you're able to get laid by just indicating you want to get laid. Men have to offer themselves and compete like rabid beasts; women need to exist and choose their favourite one. Hearing a woman complain that no male models have been looking her up out of the blue looking for a sexual relationship is something I'd consider arrogant, and a lot of the people who derailed this thread can probably bear witness to that.

The comparisons I've heard so far were accurate. I was once told that I should stop talking in a surprised way about having good results without studying, because it greatly upset those who studied for hours a day and failed most of their courses. This is very similar to that - the original poster has an ostensibly better starting position, yet just sits there, half-heartedly complaining and thereby offending those who have actual difficulties.

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Masculinity is really strictly enforced and that is a crappy thing. And on an individual level, it really blows for guys who aren't interested in molding to a stereotypical idea of masculinity.


That's evolution. They don't try, they don't succeed, they don't reproduce. It makes a lot of sense. Enforcing a standard of masculinity upon men even makes sense - it means the men in your social group are capable of handling problems while more feminine men would completely fail to address specific issues and lose their comparative advantages associated with masculinity. You'd have two sets of female advantages and disadvantages, and no sets of male advantages to counter those.

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Upholding the idea that there is masculine and there is feminine and never the twain shall meet (except to commit an act that is something the man should be proud of and the woman should be shamed for, I mean c'mon, how an hating is that to say that men ruin women when they have sex with them, what's so gross about men that rubs off on a woman if she sleeps with one?) hurts people of every gender.


For a woman to understand that, she should enter a bigamous relationship where she is the second wife. Essentially, it's the same idea - if your husband has another wife, you and your children won't have his undivided attention, and your chance of wealth - and from a more basic perspective, your children surviving - decreases with every marriage your husband enters.

If a man has a woman who has had sex with a lot of men, there's little certainty for the man in other, less material fields. Can she be trusted? Is she carrying infections? If she has a child, is it his, or is he providing for another man's child, a 'genetic parasite'? Additionally, she can only be pregnant once at a time, so any time she's recently spent with other men might make your evolutionary investment stagnant for nine months, and turn it into a massive loss afterwards.

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
ex. a society in which women are taught to be afraid of rape and to be vigilant about avoiding it, women now have to modify their behavior because there is an implicit threat of sexual violence against them, if they don't modify their behavior satisfactorily, it can be hard to get a conviction in the event of an assault.


The current-day situation is no worse than it's ever been. In many ways, it's much better for women while remaining rather bad for men. And as long as people have urges, there will be incidents. What I find amusing about these SlutWalk types is that they don't believe in observable facts. A lot of men are more aroused by a woman with more exposed skin than by a woman wearing a long dress and a headscarf. If you walk around in more risqué clothing, you will statistically increase your chance of being raped.



DogsWithoutHorses
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24 Jun 2012, 9:55 pm

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
No one is blaming men for anybody's virginity or lack of ability to get laid, (or I'm not at least) The issue is social anxiety,cultural ideas about feminine virginity, and at this point a discussion of why the original discussion has a hard time happening here.
and to think I felt bad for initially saying this thread about a woman having a concern was going to turn into what about teh menz...turns out I was just too early (and it's quite possible I did the equivalent of saying bloody mary in the bathroom mirror 3 times)


I'm all of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse when it comes to dragging on something infinitely, and that's exactly what I'm planning to do now. You're saying nobody's blaming men for not having sex - you're wrong. I'm blaming myself, a lot of my friends are blaming themselves, we're blaming each other, and we're being blamed by women. It's just not at all attractive for women to have a man who wasn't able to get another woman at a normal age.

The original discussion turned into this rancid excuse for an argument because the original poster seems to forget what's between her legs. If you have a vagina, are alive and you're under 70, you're able to get laid by just indicating you want to get laid. Men have to offer themselves and compete like rabid beasts; women need to exist and choose their favourite one. Hearing a woman complain that no male models have been looking her up out of the blue looking for a sexual relationship is something I'd consider arrogant, and a lot of the people who derailed this thread can probably bear witness to that.

The comparisons I've heard so far were accurate. I was once told that I should stop talking in a surprised way about having good results without studying, because it greatly upset those who studied for hours a day and failed most of their courses. This is very similar to that - the original poster has an ostensibly better starting position, yet just sits there, half-heartedly complaining and thereby offending those who have actual difficulties.

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Masculinity is really strictly enforced and that is a crappy thing. And on an individual level, it really blows for guys who aren't interested in molding to a stereotypical idea of masculinity.


That's evolution. They don't try, they don't succeed, they don't reproduce. It makes a lot of sense. Enforcing a standard of masculinity upon men even makes sense - it means the men in your social group are capable of handling problems while more feminine men would completely fail to address specific issues and lose their comparative advantages associated with masculinity. You'd have two sets of female advantages and disadvantages, and no sets of male advantages to counter those.

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Upholding the idea that there is masculine and there is feminine and never the twain shall meet (except to commit an act that is something the man should be proud of and the woman should be shamed for, I mean c'mon, how an hating is that to say that men ruin women when they have sex with them, what's so gross about men that rubs off on a woman if she sleeps with one?) hurts people of every gender.


For a woman to understand that, she should enter a bigamous relationship where she is the second wife. Essentially, it's the same idea - if your husband has another wife, you and your children won't have his undivided attention, and your chance of wealth - and from a more basic perspective, your children surviving - decreases with every marriage your husband enters.

If a man has a woman who has had sex with a lot of men, there's little certainty for the man in other, less material fields. Can she be trusted? Is she carrying infections? If she has a child, is it his, or is he providing for another man's child, a 'genetic parasite'? Additionally, she can only be pregnant once at a time, so any time she's recently spent with other men might make your evolutionary investment stagnant for nine months, and turn it into a massive loss afterwards.

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
ex. a society in which women are taught to be afraid of rape and to be vigilant about avoiding it, women now have to modify their behavior because there is an implicit threat of sexual violence against them, if they don't modify their behavior satisfactorily, it can be hard to get a conviction in the event of an assault.


The current-day situation is no worse than it's ever been. In many ways, it's much better for women while remaining rather bad for men. And as long as people have urges, there will be incidents. What I find amusing about these SlutWalk types is that they don't believe in observable facts. A lot of men are more aroused by a woman with more exposed skin than by a woman wearing a long dress and a headscarf. If you walk around in more risqué clothing, you will statistically increase your chance of being raped.


Reality fail. Morality fail. Humanity fail.


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25 Jun 2012, 1:01 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
That's evolution. They don't try, they don't succeed, they don't reproduce. It makes a lot of sense.


If that were true, then there would be zero need for a cultural standard to be enforced. Biology, allowed to run its course, would generate increasingly masculine males, at an inherent/biological (rather than cultural) level. Apparently this isn't happening. Therefore, the cultural standards are attempting to enforce it - against nature, which is what enforced cultural standards are about. Defying instinct and nature.

This is sometimes good. Instinctually, when I get groceries, I would sneak in, take what I wanted, and sneak out, attacking anyone in my way. Civilization and culture modify my behaviour so that I go to the cash and pay and don't sneak or attack anyone. This is good. But there is nature we should defy, and nature we should not. Reproduction is not one of the things we should defy.

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If a man has a woman who has had sex with a lot of men, there's little certainty for the man in other, less material fields. Can she be trusted? Is she carrying infections?


Take the blinders off - this isn't a gender-based calculation.

Quote:
A lot of men are more aroused by a woman with more exposed skin than by a woman wearing a long dress and a headscarf. If you walk around in more risqué clothing, you will statistically increase your chance of being raped.


Having a nice home increases your likelihood of being burgled, but I don't see anyone blaming the victim for having a nice home when they're robbed. Everyone should live in dingy shacks, so the burglers aren't tempted so much, don't you think?



HisDivineMajesty
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25 Jun 2012, 8:50 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Reality fail. Morality fail. Humanity fail.


Argumentation fail. If you reject the other party's reasoning on moral grounds, you're completely blind to reality. But yes, I suffer from apathy when it comes to people's aversion against the truth.

edgewaters wrote:
If that were true, then there would be zero need for a cultural standard to be enforced. Biology, allowed to run its course, would generate increasingly masculine males, at an inherent/biological (rather than cultural) level. Apparently this isn't happening. Therefore, the cultural standards are attempting to enforce it - against nature, which is what enforced cultural standards are about. Defying instinct and nature.

This is sometimes good. Instinctually, when I get groceries, I would sneak in, take what I wanted, and sneak out, attacking anyone in my way. Civilization and culture modify my behaviour so that I go to the cash and pay and don't sneak or attack anyone. This is good. But there is nature we should defy, and nature we should not. Reproduction is not one of the things we should defy.


Even in the most culturally-feminine societies on the planet, masculine men are still most likely by far to be succesful in business and dating. Nature remains nature, even if theoretical culture attempts to nuance it. In a clear matriarchy, the most masculine men would still be first in line for dating and sex, and would still rank highest among men for overall success. Women are biologically predisposed to favour masculine men.

edgewaters wrote:
Having a nice home increases your likelihood of being burgled, but I don't see anyone blaming the victim for having a nice home when they're robbed. Everyone should live in dingy shacks, so the burglers aren't tempted so much, don't you think?


No, but putting a brand-new Porsche in your garden, then leaving the fence open and putting up a note saying you'll be back in five hours with $20k in cash is rather stupid. What's the reason women dress like sluts? In many cases, the reason is to attract men, much like putting an unlocked Porsche on your driveway and leaving the fence open might attract people who will admire you for having an ugly, over-priced car. However, you'll invariably end up attracting people you don't like. People who will steal your Porsche or rape you. If you're opening up your garden without being able to defend your Porsche, and you know that, part of the blame should be on you.



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25 Jun 2012, 9:01 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
No, but putting a brand-new Porsche in your garden, then leaving the fence open and putting up a note saying you'll be back in five hours with $20k in cash is rather stupid. What's the reason women dress like sluts? In many cases, the reason is to attract men, much like putting an unlocked Porsche on your driveway and leaving the fence open might attract people who will admire you for having an ugly, over-priced car. However, you'll invariably end up attracting people you don't like. People who will steal your Porsche or rape you. If you're opening up your garden without being able to defend your Porsche, and you know that, part of the blame should be on you.


Interesting point but stealing or raping is still morally wrong regardless of how good the car looks or how the woman is dressed, there's no way to justify or soften the crime, rape is rape, regardless of whether the girl was wearing daisy dukes or a long blouse.



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25 Jun 2012, 9:06 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
What's the reason women dress like sluts? In many cases, the reason is to attract men, much like putting an unlocked Porsche on your driveway and leaving the fence open might attract people who will admire you for having an ugly, over-priced car. However, you'll invariably end up attracting people you don't like. People who will steal your Porsche or rape you. If you're opening up your garden without being able to defend your Porsche, and you know that, part of the blame should be on you.


What's the reason many men wear "bling"? Or get tattoos? or show off their abs when they get the chance?

For women, dressing so they look hot is kind of a status thing as well. You want to look better than other women so you feel good about yourself. Most of the time, it's not because you are looking to be picked up by any man who is attracted to you by the way you dress. The only exceptions would be places where singles get together, like bars or clubs.


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25 Jun 2012, 9:17 am

Wolfheart wrote:
HisDivineMajesty wrote:
No, but putting a brand-new Porsche in your garden, then leaving the fence open and putting up a note saying you'll be back in five hours with $20k in cash is rather stupid. What's the reason women dress like sluts? In many cases, the reason is to attract men, much like putting an unlocked Porsche on your driveway and leaving the fence open might attract people who will admire you for having an ugly, over-priced car. However, you'll invariably end up attracting people you don't like. People who will steal your Porsche or rape you. If you're opening up your garden without being able to defend your Porsche, and you know that, part of the blame should be on you.


Interesting point but stealing or raping is still morally wrong regardless of how good the car looks or how the woman is dressed, there's no way to justify or soften the crime, rape is rape, regardless of whether the girl was wearing daisy dukes or a long blouse.


HisDivineMajesty should live in Saudi Arabia, his heaven.



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25 Jun 2012, 9:30 am

Wolfheart wrote:
Interesting point but stealing or raping is still morally wrong regardless of how good the car looks or how the woman is dressed, there's no way to justify or soften the crime, rape is rape, regardless of whether the girl was wearing daisy dukes or a long blouse.


It doesn't justify anything, but it explains a lot, and if they know that and carry through with it regardless, they're in part responsible for those conditions.

deltafunction wrote:
What's the reason many men wear "bling"? Or get tattoos? or show off their abs when they get the chance?


To attract women. A known side effect is that they, in some cases, will also attract men willing to pick a fight over social dominance.

The__Face_of_Boo wrote:
HisDivineMajesty should live in Saudi Arabia, his heaven.


You don't need Saudi Arabia for that. I can easily move to Rotterdam's inner city. Plenty of fundamentalist muslims there, and just a few miles from here.



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25 Jun 2012, 9:45 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
deltafunction wrote:
What's the reason many men wear "bling"? Or get tattoos? or show off their abs when they get the chance?


To attract women. A known side effect is that they, in some cases, will also attract men willing to pick a fight over social dominance.


I've seen too many taken men and women dress to impress to believe that.


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25 Jun 2012, 10:05 am

deltafunction wrote:
I've seen too many taken men and women dress to impress to believe that.


You should believe that because you've seen so many taken men and women dress to impress.
I don't dress to impress, and I'm not taken. My friends don't dress to impress, and none of them are taken.

There's a pattern.



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25 Jun 2012, 10:20 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
No, but putting a brand-new Porsche in your garden, then leaving the fence open and putting up a note saying you'll be back in five hours with $20k in cash is rather stupid. What's the reason women dress like sluts? In many cases, the reason is to attract men, much like putting an unlocked Porsche on your driveway and leaving the fence open might attract people who will admire you for having an ugly, over-priced car. However, you'll invariably end up attracting people you don't like. People who will steal your Porsche or rape you. If you're opening up your garden without being able to defend your Porsche, and you know that, part of the blame should be on you.


You can't live your life in fear of as*holes. Nobody should demand that others do. If you want to cower from burglers and such, so be it - just don't judge those with more courage than you.



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25 Jun 2012, 10:30 am

edgewaters wrote:
Women should be free to appear attractive. It's everyone's right.

(your new edit:)

You can't live your life in fear of as*holes. Nobody should demand that others do. If you want to cower from burglers and such, so be it - just don't judge those with more courage than you.


Exactly, and men should be allowed to leave their doors open and leave a note saying they'll be gone for five hours. However, being utterly surprised when something happens after walking through a bad neighbourhood in little clothing isn't something I'd have much patience for. It's like getting two homosexuals to make out in front of a group of fundamentalist muslims. Strictly spoken, it's their right, but they know they're really increasing their chance of getting injured. If you know the risks, and take the risks, it's not just the fault of a person seeing a chance to have sex, commit acts of violence or steal some expensive items.



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25 Jun 2012, 10:56 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Women should be free to appear attractive. It's everyone's right.

(your new edit:)

You can't live your life in fear of as*holes. Nobody should demand that others do. If you want to cower from burglers and such, so be it - just don't judge those with more courage than you.


Exactly, and men should be allowed to leave their doors open and leave a note saying they'll be gone for five hours. However, being utterly surprised when something happens after walking through a bad neighbourhood in little clothing isn't something I'd have much patience for. It's like getting two homosexuals to make out in front of a group of fundamentalist muslims. Strictly spoken, it's their right, but they know they're really increasing their chance of getting injured. If you know the risks, and take the risks, it's not just the fault of a person seeing a chance to have sex, commit acts of violence or steal some expensive items.


Most acts of rape are committed by someone the person knows, by the way. Chances are in western society that you're more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than a stranger off the street.


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HisDivineMajesty
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25 Jun 2012, 10:58 am

Of course - it's easier if you have a key and are expected to be near the house anyway.



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25 Jun 2012, 11:05 am

deltafunction wrote:
HisDivineMajesty wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Women should be free to appear attractive. It's everyone's right.

(your new edit:)

You can't live your life in fear of as*holes. Nobody should demand that others do. If you want to cower from burglers and such, so be it - just don't judge those with more courage than you.


Exactly, and men should be allowed to leave their doors open and leave a note saying they'll be gone for five hours. However, being utterly surprised when something happens after walking through a bad neighbourhood in little clothing isn't something I'd have much patience for. It's like getting two homosexuals to make out in front of a group of fundamentalist muslims. Strictly spoken, it's their right, but they know they're really increasing their chance of getting injured. If you know the risks, and take the risks, it's not just the fault of a person seeing a chance to have sex, commit acts of violence or steal some expensive items.


Most acts of rape are committed by someone the person knows, by the way. Chances are in western society that you're more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than a stranger off the street.


(s) What are you doing with facts? (s)This is about how HDM is peacocking like an idiot on his digital "turf" (which I wish I was making up) and spewing his women hating nonsense...any discussion of reality is completely irrelevant.


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25 Jun 2012, 11:09 am

Yeah, so it's more likely to be some guy taking advantage of a vulnerable person, or a psychopath committing an act of violence than some lustful man who can't help himself. Honestly, I doubt it would make a difference how a woman is dressed.


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