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Sweetleaf
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22 Aug 2015, 12:57 pm

HDLMatchette wrote:
but businesses should be allowed to have unrestricted free competition. i agree the poor need to be helped, but not by the government. the people need to do that on their own.


Well I disagree, unrestriced free competition....means un-restricted which would mean there can be now laws/policies to prevent them harming the community. So I say free competition so long as its not hurting the community.

Also its a nice ideal that people would come together and provide adequate help to the poor and thus there wouldn't even be need for the government to have any involvement. But back down in reality the masses aren't so kind hearted, so what would you propose when this Charity only system fails?

Do you think the government(who I believe should serve the citizens) would be justified in standing by and doing nothing if we had american citizens essentially dying in the streets because there's not enough charity help? Or do you think it makes more sense to at least have a potentially government backed back up plan to address poverty in this event?


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22 Aug 2015, 1:02 pm

Magneto wrote:
Odin wrote:
This socialist Aspie thinks Libertarians are selfish jerks who haven't emotionally matured past the "I don't want to and you can't make me!! !" stage, which is why they idolize Ayn Rand's crap.

This libertarian Aspie thinks Socialists are selfish jerks who haven't emotionally matured past the "It's not fair I want that toy too" stage, which is why the idolise Karl Marx's crap.



Well then you sir, aren't what I would refer to as a well read individual...


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HDLMatchette
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22 Aug 2015, 1:10 pm

i don't believe in government safety nets for cooperations, so you can pretty much be thankful we libertarians don't want that. capitalism, while not perfect, solves more problems than any other system.



glebel
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22 Aug 2015, 3:06 pm

HDLMatchette wrote:
how do libertarians want to assault freedom?

I said that maybe the Libertarians could help in keeping the other parties from assaulting our freedoms, not that they are. :x


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04 Sep 2015, 4:08 am

gigstalksguy wrote:
Roadkill1953 wrote:
I am conservative, pro tea party, probably could be considered a libertarian, not many here though.

Around 1948 the house committee of un American activities put out a booklet titled "1001 ways to tell a communist" maby 101 ways, I forget,

It predicts how the party's would be infiltrated, and people "conditioned". It basically predicted the last 30 to 40 years, not sure where to get a copy, found mine at a yard sale.

Knowing people from ussr and nations with socialized health care, Canada, England, socialism and socialized health may be the last thing a person with a disability would want, most said you only get what's absolutely necessary to keep you alive, if it is cheaper to amputate then save your leg, etc, off it goes, if you are not considered productive, disabled, or too old, or not essential, you may not get treated for cancer, etc, if it is more cost effective to let you die, if it is cheaper to put you in an institution then medicate, or provide an assistant, off you go. An Englishman told me what he does, what country to go to for what, all I remember now is that I think he said Germany had the best dentists in the world, I think he said you get put on waiting lists for medical conditions, sometimes people die before getting treated, if he has the money he goes where the best dr he can afford is, no insurance coverage for that.

There are many ideals of socialism that attract people, but looking at history and talking to people who lived it, you don't want it, you only get what is needed to live, may not have job choices, if you don't do your job, you go to prison, only get a car if gov feels you need it, may need permits to travel, paid according to needs, janitor may get higher pay then dr, if he has more kids then the dr. Poor quality, if you don't like your job you may do absolute minimum needed,

Basically socialists feel, people are not capable of running their own lives and mist be directed or guided their whole life,

Conservative or libertarian, it's your life, go live it, if you need help, ask and if possible, we will do what we can


Very well said. People are self-serving and greedy by nature. The way to get people to work hard and productively is to understand this. In free-market capitalism, people will put the work and voluntarily take on the more demanding job because they come with a reward of higher pay. You consequently get a far better quality of service in a capitalist society, because if your business doesn't serve its customers, someone else will come along and take your customers, and all the profits that come with them. To illustrate, look at the cars that are produced in communist countries i.e. Lada, Yugo, FSO. All cheap, poorly built and unreliable. That's what you get when a government just assigns people to jobs in a car factory (it may not work quite like this but you get the point.


You're confusing socialism with communism. It's not like you can't pay people more if they need more money AND if they're job is harder to do, or have people choose their own jobs, but still have centralized payment system rather than having the corporation that cheats the most make the most money instead of the one the actually contributes the most to society. There are many, many different forms of socialism. You can even keep the free market, but just have large public sector as well. I find the Nordic model appealing.

Anyway, you don't have to be selfish to be a libertarian (afterall that can only applies to the libertarians who are already priviledged and thus would thrive in a libertarian world, not aspies), but you'd need to be very naive to how society and people function. This only goes for pure libertarianism, it's a spectrum and some of it's ideas are good.


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Sweetleaf
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04 Sep 2015, 4:32 pm

HDLMatchette wrote:
i don't believe in government safety nets for cooperations, so you can pretty much be thankful we libertarians don't want that. capitalism, while not perfect, solves more problems than any other system.


Really, in what way does capitalism solve more problems than any other system?....even at its basis it puts profit before human dignity/rights. I mean for instance if you privatize all the public services that doesn't really solve problems that just turns everything into a product people have to buy and cannot have if they cannot afford. In earlier america more pure capitalism was attempted, but regulations had to be created to try and prevent things like employee abuse and very dangerous working conditions, companies monopolizing too much.

In order to keep capitalism from being a barbaric system it needs regulations, but even regulated its not exactly 'solving' a lot of problems.


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Ganondox
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08 Sep 2015, 12:29 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
HDLMatchette wrote:
i don't believe in government safety nets for cooperations, so you can pretty much be thankful we libertarians don't want that. capitalism, while not perfect, solves more problems than any other system.


Really, in what way does capitalism solve more problems than any other system?....even at its basis it puts profit before human dignity/rights. I mean for instance if you privatize all the public services that doesn't really solve problems that just turns everything into a product people have to buy and cannot have if they cannot afford. In earlier america more pure capitalism was attempted, but regulations had to be created to try and prevent things like employee abuse and very dangerous working conditions, companies monopolizing too much.

In order to keep capitalism from being a barbaric system it needs regulations, but even regulated its not exactly 'solving' a lot of problems.


The only thing good about capitalism is that it actually works, meaning resources actually get distrubuted in the manner the system describes in practice, but there is absolutely nothing ethical about it. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.


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trayder
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16 Sep 2015, 7:09 am

Capitalisms ultimate absurdity and one that conflicts with my logic, whether it be libertarian or bourgoisie liberal, is the notion that one can commodify a finite plane, infinitely. Hence I am a scientific socialist.



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04 Oct 2015, 11:28 pm

I think that the main misconception that a sizable number of people have us that libertarianism and socialism are mutually exclusive. There is actually a range of thought that is libertarian socialist. Socialism does not have to necessarily involve a state. A co-operative enterprise is also an example of socialism in action.



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05 Oct 2015, 12:02 am

Touretter wrote:
I think that the main misconception that a sizable number of people have us that libertarianism and socialism are mutually exclusive. There is actually a range of thought that is libertarian socialist. Socialism does not have to necessarily involve a state. A co-operative enterprise is also an example of socialism in action.


Scientific socialism is not about liberty per se, but about the new man or woman and the social relations necessary to help nurture this particular being.

Who acts in the spirit of pure reason and thus forges his full potential in an environment that has no preconceptions about him and is thus absent of limits.

It can only occur globally to succeed and of course, requires the consciousness to foster it,



spacemonkeypaal
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14 Jun 2016, 3:54 pm

This was a very clever analysis!



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17 Jun 2016, 2:12 am

Alvin31 wrote:
What do you think about this argument :

That is, libertarian thought verges on advocating a form of society very much along the lines of the "one-sided" and "self-centered" social nature of Aspies. Yes, as anyone familiar with the condition would observe here, those with Asperger's aren't individualistic in a technically autistic sense, i.e. they're not asocially withdrawn. But they do have a style of social interaction that's very much on the autistic spectrum, and that tends to define them as "individualistic in outlook" and given to a "lack of interest in socialization". It's this kind of autistic individuality that libertarianism can easily be seen as ideologically enshrining, in the form of its tenet of "self-ownership", and its glorification of every-man-for-himself free-marketarian economics and its cornerstone principle of self-interest.

Self-ownership, self-interest, self-this and self-that indeed. Note the frequency of occurrence of the word self in the conversation and philosophy of libertarians. They do rather appear to think in terms centered on atomized selves. I really don't think that it would be an unfair exaggeration at all to say that they in fact seem to have taken a centered-on-radically-individualistic-selves, a thoroughly self-centered orientation, and parlayed it into a political orthodoxy that rationalizes and validates it for them.

And, moreover, contrary to their professed belief in freedom, libertarians yearn to impose this self-centered orientation & orthodoxy on the rest of us, by promoting capitalism in its most antisocially individualistic, Darwinianly competitive form. Quite like political Aspies, libertarians first superimpose their own social way of being in the world on their thinking about society, and the next move of course is to go from superimposing to imposing. The sociopolitical thinking that feels so right to the liberpergerarian, to coin an awkward term, feels like it would be right and best for society as a whole. Naturally enough then, the liberpergerarian becomes a proponent, often a utopian and zealous one, of ideologically purifying our current mixed form of capitalism and visiting a more inhumanely selfist system upon his neighbor.

Asperger is the libertarianism

Now then, the possible painful human consequences of creating a socioeconomic order based to such an extreme extent on individualism perhaps doesn't adequately register with libertarians because of another hallmark Asperger's trait. I'm referring to the Aspie's distinctive deficit in the empathy department. An empathy deficit, does this sound at all like something that's characteristic of libertarianism and its adherents? That was a rhetorical question, by the way.

Libertarian philosophy of course often places no emphasis or value on the qualities of empathy and social compassion at all. In its most extreme version it even explicitly denounces such touchy-feely ethical qualities. Predictably, it thoroughly intellectualizes this with some of its key social concepts and its free-marketarian economics. But this is all really quite a lot of ideological self-justification of unfeeling self-centeredness. Libertarians can try as they may, but the leave-everyone-to-his-own-devices-and-to-the-winners-go-all-and-the-losers-can-die-and-decrease-the-surplus-population ethos of the their not so dear movement certainly bespeaks a lack of empathy. A veritably clinical lack of empathy, one that is yet another nail in the diagnosis of libertarianism as politicized Asperger's.

Next on the list of shared symptoms, the linear logicality & rigid rationalism of both Aspies and libertarians. Ever noticed how libertarians tend to be intellectually rather like latter-day scholastic philosophers, intensely, logic-choppingly, and doctrinairely rationalizing their politico-economic articles of faith the way medieval thinkers used to take their theological rationalizations to the extreme of deductively proving how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? And have you ever noticed how downright obsessive libertarians can be about the concepts of their creed, and about defending their intellectual validity? A penchant to be tenaciously logical and intellectually obsessive, doesn't this sound at least a tad Asperger's-like?!


To put it simply, no, we're not being selfish about it. We just want people to live their lives uninterrupted by outside forces. Libertarianism is basically the social openness of a democrat and the economic approach of a republican. We care about others, enough to try and keep others out of what is clearly private business. That isnt to say that most Libertarians are against public roads, taxes, and all that, but we highly value individualism and hate it when big-government types try to change that. Humans are meant to be free.



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05 Feb 2018, 3:48 pm

As an aspie I'm actually a liberal because I believe in a government where they help the poor and as someone who comes from a poor family I have seen the injustice of class inequality caused by a were the government does not keep big businesses in check I do believe people have a right to be free and independent though


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11 Feb 2018, 1:19 am

I actually find the idea that I am supposed to be a "helpless victim" and unprivileged because of my autism/asperger diagnosis to be VERY offensive and insulting.



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11 Feb 2018, 2:10 pm

Alvin31 wrote:
What do you think about this argument :

For me it sounds like "Aspies are worse human beings than NTs".



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11 Feb 2018, 2:18 pm

trayder wrote:
Capitalisms ultimate absurdity and one that conflicts with my logic, whether it be libertarian or bourgoisie liberal, is the notion that one can commodify a finite plane, infinitely. Hence I am a scientific socialist.

USSR, China, Kampuchea, etc, etc. So many horrible failures of Socialists, unbelievable poverty and totalitarianism, hundreds millions people dying. And yet the world is full of people who are inclined to step on the same rake again and again.



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