DOJ cleared Eric Holder of Fast N Furious

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ruveyn
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22 Sep 2012, 6:41 am

A sitting president regardless of this party is responsible for EVERY LAST THING does by members of his administration. Every Last Thing. No excuses, no exceptions

The oath of office is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. It is not to try to defend the Constitution of the United States. Trying does not count. Only succeeding counts. If a president cannot full fill this oath then he was unqualified to hold the office and should be called out for his failures.

ruveyn



Inuyasha
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22 Sep 2012, 2:39 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
As I had understood it, similar programs had been in use during the Bush years. But even if Fast And Furious was a thing of only the Obama years, how is that Obama's fault? I seriously doubt he had the time to dedicate attention to a two-bit, hair brained scheme like this. And as it was the undertaking of a local office, I find it unbelievable that the top cop of the nation, Erick Holder, would actually be behind an idiot idea of using Radio Shack battery powered tracking devices in guns, then sold to the bad guys.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Kraichgauer, the closest thing to Fast & Furious that Bush had was Operation Wide Receiver, and there are several safeguards in Wide Receiver that were not present in Fast & Furious.

Wide Receiver (started in 2006 and ended in 2006)
1. Tracking Devices were actually embedded in the guns.
2. Mexican Law Enforcement were briefed about Wide Receiver.
3. The instant guns started disappearing the program was scrapped because they were not going to jeopardize the public's safety.

Fast & Furious
1. Actually ordered ATF agents to stop tracking guns (no tracking device)
2. Mexican Law Enforcement was not briefed.
3. Continued even after thousands of firearms had disappeared 2 US Border Patrol Agents had been killed and then Obama proceeded to try to blame Gun Dealerships.

Fact of the matter is the Obama DoJ lied to congress, there is no excuse Kraichgauer.



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22 Sep 2012, 4:41 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As I had understood it, similar programs had been in use during the Bush years. But even if Fast And Furious was a thing of only the Obama years, how is that Obama's fault? I seriously doubt he had the time to dedicate attention to a two-bit, hair brained scheme like this. And as it was the undertaking of a local office, I find it unbelievable that the top cop of the nation, Erick Holder, would actually be behind an idiot idea of using Radio Shack battery powered tracking devices in guns, then sold to the bad guys.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Kraichgauer, the closest thing to Fast & Furious that Bush had was Operation Wide Receiver, and there are several safeguards in Wide Receiver that were not present in Fast & Furious.

Wide Receiver (started in 2006 and ended in 2006)
1. Tracking Devices were actually embedded in the guns.
2. Mexican Law Enforcement were briefed about Wide Receiver.
3. The instant guns started disappearing the program was scrapped because they were not going to jeopardize the public's safety.

Fast & Furious
1. Actually ordered ATF agents to stop tracking guns (no tracking device)
2. Mexican Law Enforcement was not briefed.
3. Continued even after thousands of firearms had disappeared 2 US Border Patrol Agents had been killed and then Obama proceeded to try to blame Gun Dealerships.

Fact of the matter is the Obama DoJ lied to congress, there is no excuse Kraichgauer.


Obama blamed Innocent gun dealers? Are you sure it wasn't just the justice department under his aegis?
And in a sense I can understand not alerting the Mexican authorities, as they have a hard earned reputation of being corrupt and in the pocket of drug cartels.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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22 Sep 2012, 4:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:
A sitting president regardless of this party is responsible for EVERY LAST THING does by members of his administration. Every Last Thing. No excuses, no exceptions

The oath of office is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. It is not to try to defend the Constitution of the United States. Trying does not count. Only succeeding counts. If a president cannot full fill this oath then he was unqualified to hold the office and should be called out for his failures.

ruveyn


Tell that to the ghost of Reagan, regarding Iran-Contra.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Inuyasha
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22 Sep 2012, 5:20 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Obama blamed Innocent gun dealers? Are you sure it wasn't just the justice department under his aegis?
And in a sense I can understand not alerting the Mexican authorities, as they have a hard earned reputation of being corrupt and in the pocket of drug cartels.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


1 minute into the following video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok8B46JyXFY[/youtube]



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22 Sep 2012, 10:12 pm

Uh, yeah... the guns came from the United States. Are you arguing with that fact? And as for the guns ending up in the hands of bad guys coming from gun shops - I hardly think that's an accusation that the dealers had knowingly sold guns to people who in turn took them to Mexico. It's just a statement of fact.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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23 Sep 2012, 3:27 pm

Yeah he was trying to blame the gun dealers in an attempt to push for Chicago or DC style Gun Restrictions (the kind that were declared unconstitutional). The fact of the matter is the guns were essentially coming from our US Department of Justice, and it looks more like the gun dealerships were going to be the scapegoat of all the violence. What derailed the DoJ's (and I seriously believe the White House is also involved in this), is that the gun dealerships started taping all conversations they had with the Department of Justice.



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23 Sep 2012, 4:53 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Yeah he was trying to blame the gun dealers in an attempt to push for Chicago or DC style Gun Restrictions (the kind that were declared unconstitutional). The fact of the matter is the guns were essentially coming from our US Department of Justice, and it looks more like the gun dealerships were going to be the scapegoat of all the violence. What derailed the DoJ's (and I seriously believe the White House is also involved in this), is that the gun dealerships started taping all conversations they had with the Department of Justice.


So wait a minute... You don't believe guns are entering Mexico illegally, save by means of the DOJ?
And so what if gun dealers started recording conversations with the feds? That hardly proves the White House was involved. And it's only smart to record conversations with the government when legalities come up.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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23 Sep 2012, 5:07 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Uh, yeah... the guns came from the United States. Are you arguing with that fact? And as for the guns ending up in the hands of bad guys coming from gun shops - I hardly think that's an accusation that the dealers had knowingly sold guns to people who in turn took them to Mexico. It's just a statement of fact.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Most of the guns came from central America. Mexico was cherry-picking whyat guns they sent here to be traced to try and make it look like we were the sole supplier. When we found out what secret caches of confiscated foreign guns were holding back from being traced plus the ratio of guns sent here that turned out did not originate from a US dealer, the number of guns smuggled from the US turned out to only be about 17-19% of the total being recovered in Mexico. Guns from US dealers are expensive as hell compared to getting them from 3rd world countries. Then there's the surplus arms sales the state department authorized to Mexico. Our federal law required a thorough background check of buyers before sales were cleared, yet these Mexican "defense contractors" were poorly veiled fronts for the cartels. And then there's "operation castaway" and then there's the the guns the ATF bought in phoenix using taxpayer money and a law enforcement exemption from a background check, gave the guns to smugglers, and then tried to frame the dealer for a straw sale. Luckily the dealer took the letter from the ATF ordering the sale and put it in his bound book (mandated gun sales log), and turned it over to rep. Issa when he was about to get framed. Last I heard, said dealer is still in business. :D


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23 Sep 2012, 5:27 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Uh, yeah... the guns came from the United States. Are you arguing with that fact? And as for the guns ending up in the hands of bad guys coming from gun shops - I hardly think that's an accusation that the dealers had knowingly sold guns to people who in turn took them to Mexico. It's just a statement of fact.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Most of the guns came from central America. Mexico was cherry-picking whyat guns they sent here to be traced to try and make it look like we were the sole supplier. When we found out what secret caches of confiscated foreign guns were holding back from being traced plus the ratio of guns sent here that turned out did not originate from a US dealer, the number of guns smuggled from the US turned out to only be about 17-19% of the total being recovered in Mexico. Guns from US dealers are expensive as hell compared to getting them from 3rd world countries. Then there's the surplus arms sales the state department authorized to Mexico. Our federal law required a thorough background check of buyers before sales were cleared, yet these Mexican "defense contractors" were poorly veiled fronts for the cartels. And then there's "operation castaway" and then there's the the guns the ATF bought in phoenix using taxpayer money and a law enforcement exemption from a background check, gave the guns to smugglers, and then tried to frame the dealer for a straw sale. Luckily the dealer took the letter from the ATF ordering the sale and put it in his bound book (mandated gun sales log), and turned it over to rep. Issa when he was about to get framed. Last I heard, said dealer is still in business. :D


Well, I'm delighted this gun dealer didn't get sent to prison, and is still in business.
Still, 17-19% of guns being smuggled into Mexico from the USA can't be ignored. It certainly can't be used to deny that any American guns had ended up in the hands of bad guys.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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23 Sep 2012, 7:14 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Tell that to the ghost of Reagan, regarding Iran-Contra.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Reagan was doing unconstitutional howlers from the git-go. Remember the arms deal down in central america. Also sending arms and money to the Iranians for letting our people go.

Even Thomas Jefferson was guilty. His purchase of the Louisiana Territory was unconstitutional. Shall I tell Jefferson's ghost a thing or two?

ruveyn



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23 Sep 2012, 7:20 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Tell that to the ghost of Reagan, regarding Iran-Contra.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Reagan was doing unconstitutional howlers from the git-go. Remember the arms deal down in central america. Also sending arms and money to the Iranians for letting our people go.

Even Thomas Jefferson was guilty. His purchase of the Louisiana Territory was unconstitutional. Shall I tell Jefferson's ghost a thing or two?

ruveyn


Were either Reagan or Jefferson trying to undermine the US Constitution, specifically the 2nd Amendment?

I think the answer to that question would be a no.



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23 Sep 2012, 7:58 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Tell that to the ghost of Reagan, regarding Iran-Contra.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Reagan was doing unconstitutional howlers from the git-go. Remember the arms deal down in central america. Also sending arms and money to the Iranians for letting our people go.

Even Thomas Jefferson was guilty. His purchase of the Louisiana Territory was unconstitutional. Shall I tell Jefferson's ghost a thing or two?

ruveyn


But aren't you old enough to have known... No, I won't go there. :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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23 Sep 2012, 7:59 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Tell that to the ghost of Reagan, regarding Iran-Contra.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Reagan was doing unconstitutional howlers from the git-go. Remember the arms deal down in central america. Also sending arms and money to the Iranians for letting our people go.

Even Thomas Jefferson was guilty. His purchase of the Louisiana Territory was unconstitutional. Shall I tell Jefferson's ghost a thing or two?

ruveyn


Were either Reagan or Jefferson trying to undermine the US Constitution, specifically the 2nd Amendment?

I think the answer to that question would be a no.


Seriously, the President, who had taught constitutional law, is not trying to undermine any part of the constitution.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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23 Sep 2012, 9:19 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Tell that to the ghost of Reagan, regarding Iran-Contra.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Reagan was doing unconstitutional howlers from the git-go. Remember the arms deal down in central america. Also sending arms and money to the Iranians for letting our people go.

Even Thomas Jefferson was guilty. His purchase of the Louisiana Territory was unconstitutional. Shall I tell Jefferson's ghost a thing or two?

ruveyn


Were either Reagan or Jefferson trying to undermine the US Constitution, specifically the 2nd Amendment?

I think the answer to that question would be a no.


Seriously, the President, who had taught constitutional law, is not trying to undermine any part of the constitution.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


That's why he appealed the injunction against the NDAA against the wishes of the FBI and CIA. :roll:


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ruveyn
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23 Sep 2012, 9:21 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Seriously, the President, who had taught constitutional law, is not trying to undermine any part of the constitution.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Don't bet on it.

ruveyn