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argyle
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09 Oct 2012, 12:39 pm

...sorry - I'm somewhat verbose and often unclear and sometimes wrong.

For conversation, this seems to be a common issue with male Aspies and maybe just males in general. One successful trick a couple we know tried - play books/lectures on tape. Her husband would basically just sit there with a blank mind and no small-talk. Six hour silent car-rides irritated her. Once the books/lectures were playing, they'd have interesting conversations.

I tend to look at pragmatic scheduling/chore division as taking responsibility for getting my own needs met. Sure, I could just hope that my wife would pitch in. (not gonna happen). I could lean back and wait for my wife to pick up the slack. (tried this, got tired of the dog excrement matting the carpet) I could agree to split the chores evenly (my half got done...hers didn't...she said the division was unfair...and pitched a fit when I offered to swap.) I could also just give up. (but hate walking on dog excrement) Or, I could ask my wife what she'll actually do - leave her to do those portions - do the things I'm willing to to/care about, pay for the things I'd rather pay for, and not bother with things that I don't care about and that she's not willing to pay for or do. (Eg, hanging her laundry.) I do feel a bit of amusement every few months when she runs out of clothes, whines, and then gives up and brings some of her clothes inside.* It would probably be pretty reasonable to try all of the above and see how they go - your husband may well react differently from my wife.

Dressage is right - it is important to avoid being his mom. OTOH, agreeing on a schedule isn't being his mom - that's just being reasonably well-organized. Reminding him constantly throughout the week - is being his mom. I'd avoid that. Reviewing how the schedule actually worked in practice and then making changes - is just being reasonably well-organized. The most frustrating part, for me, is the way my wife will agree to any fair schedule with no resistance, fight me if I assign myself most of the chores, and then absolutely fail to follow through. The schedule review serves 2 purposes. First off, you'll be able to recalibrate your expectations based on what your husband actually does and plan around that. Expect iteration. Second off, he'll have a better understanding of why you'd like to spend money on XYZ. The point isn't to change your husband, the point is to get through life with a lower stress level.

Regarding praise, eh, simple relationship maintenance and communication. There's enough frustration in any relationship that making a point of having positive interactions - particularly when your S/O does things you like - is a good idea. The only purpose of constant criticism is to drive your partner away from you.

Regarding rigidity, you seem rigid - and it probably is how you cope with the world - so asking you to give up the rigidity seems impractical.** Instead of trying to merge two very different lifestyles (not gonna work, usually doesn't for NTs, let alone Aspies) - I wonder whether or not you could make a different arrangement. It sounds like your husband isn't willing/able to provide any sort of reliable scheduled support. (Ask him first.) If you free up your schedule, you could set aside some chunks of time where - if he was around - you could tag along with him? preferably out of the house and away from anything you see as a duty - and if he's not around on a given day - amuse yourself with a hobby. Also, when he's around, just ask him for help with XYZ and leave - I'd be grateful for an unpaid babysitter who dropped by randomly.

From watching my mother, rigidity is a small problem until you combine it with unrealistic expectations. It may be easier to let go of perfection than rigidity. Unless your husband is a negative contributor, he probably brings something to the R/S. It helped to prioritize. I'd love it if our child could attend karate lessons while I'm at work, or eat cooked meals, or be bathed by someone other than me. I'd be dancing if there weren't plates of moldy food left on every flat surface when I get home from a trip. It'd be even better if our child's mother could do something other than plop our child in front of the TV. Heck, bathing before meeting our friends is something I'd kind of expected. But, our child loves mom, and she reads to our child occasionally, and buys groceries, and plays with our child in preschool. Oh well, except for the fighting, probably better than divorce.

--Argyle
*If she feels strongly about it, she's always welcome to negotiate a chore list and actually follow through on it.
**Y'know, I sympathize. My mom feels physically ill if there are people in the house and she's not fetching things and ensuring that everything is perfect. The only way I've ever gotten her to sit down (even if she's working on no sleep) is to leave the house. She knows it is 'odd', but will never be able to stop herself.



argyle
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09 Oct 2012, 1:05 pm

The thing that bugs me sometimes is that a lot of people (maybe more women than men) go into marriage expecting to merge 2 lives, share the burden, and generally act as a team at all times. Then, when their teammate doesn't mind-meld with them, they feel disappointed, demand unrealistic changes, start fighting, things get worse, and they end up divorcing.

The reality is that, if they'd started out expecting to have a roommate they actually loved who didn't sponge off of them too much and offered free sex, and made arrangements to have happy lives without depending on their spouse, they'd have been happy with a really positive arrangement.

Or, I might be a bit odd.

--Argyle



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09 Oct 2012, 2:03 pm

BlueMax wrote:
Maybe instead of thinking in terms of "dumbing down" how about more along the lines of ALLOWING HIM TO LEAD (if he can/will, that is.)


He can't/won't - in fact, my last therapist believes that he suffers from "dependent personality disorder". He does meet the criteria, so I wouldn't doubt it - but she can only go by my perception of him of course.

BlueMax wrote:
I'd have made a fine leader of my family if I hadn't had a forever-rebellious mutineer (and her saboteur mother) fighting me for control and dominance every step of the way! How ironic that she dismissed me as weak simply because I couldn't (or wouldn't) overpower her need to dominate. I'm not even sure what COULD have overpowered her... short of abuse - something I vowed I would never do.


This is not me, and I really would appreciate it if you would stop assuming that it is because I need a schedule and have no choice but to step up and take care of my family. Being a responsible wife and mother who is willing to fill in the gap when need be does not make me a crazy domineering control freak who's sucking the life out of my husband as you seem to believe.

...
BlueMax wrote:
I'd better go back and read the original post to see what hubby's big shortcomings were... Okay. You hate the fact he does what he wants where you need rigid routine. You resent it as an interruption of your routine and because you see routine as "grown-up" and unstructured as "childish".


I didn't say that a person is "childish" if they do not need a rigid routine as I do. Plenty of people are mature, responsible adults without the need for structure. My husband is not one of those people.

BlueMax wrote:
Is he even aware of this? He might not realize how big of a problem this is for you... that you're very close to taking these strangers' advice to "dump his ass".


Yes, he's aware of it. I've used every avenue possible to make sure that he is aware of it. He even has many different versions of the problem in writing to refer to if he's ever confused, which I sincerely doubt he ever would.

BlueMax wrote:
Other than forcing him to meet your need with threats to hurt him by leaving, etc., is there some compromising middle ground you can both meet in? I sure hope you can have that uninterrupted, serious conversation before your resentment becomes hatred and saving the family and relationship becomes impossible.


Wow. I've been trying for 2 years to talk, email, write, use white boards, books, calendars, etc. to gently help him to understand my needs. Not just my needs, but our sons needs, and the fact that our house needs maintenance and repairs from time to time. That hardly constitutes "forcing him to meet my need with threats to hurt him by leaving". I'm doing all that I can to compromise, and I'm in behavioral therapy in hopes of being trained to be able to compromise in the area of my "rigid need for structure" because I know this isn't something that I can just choose to change on my own - Honestly now, what on earth else am I supposed to do?
[/quote]



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09 Oct 2012, 2:19 pm

^^^ I appreciate the reply. Getting more complicated as the details come in... it's easy to assume things when you call him a child and tease him for still wearing a childish backpack.

I can only hope you turned off all distractions, sat him down and looked straight in his eyes (aspies don't care much for that) and tell him, "this is serious - we need to talk!" A comment tossed over one shoulder or dropping lots of hints or a short conversation in the hallway won't cut it. I remember the ex trying to tell me important things by those methods and none of them connected with me... too easily dismissed as "she's just being controlling and demanding again *grumble*"

I encourage people to try a stronger method of communication and to really impress on the partner the SERIOUSNESS AND DEPTH of the feelings in this matter.

My ex tried to "tell me something" by picking up and leaving for six months. I'm *still* not sure what she was trying to say because she couldn't bloody-well VOCALIZE it! All hints... no communication. I interpreted her message to be, "Do whatever I want or I'll take everything you love away from you." When her mysterious ploy failed, she did exactly that.

So, please, try communicating another way before dropping the big bomb on him. And good luck - I really hope you succeed.



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09 Oct 2012, 2:35 pm

DressageQueen wrote:
Lady Katie, as one of the only people on this forum with the capacity to realise that there are two sides to every story and that your husband may not necessarily share your point of view or appreciate how exaggerated you portray him as a terrible husband and father, I would like to say something (perhaps even on his behalf)


I really don't think it's necessary to go and insult the entire forum here. I'm sure that they all have the capacity to realize that my husband obviously has his own perspective on the situation. Perhaps no one else bothered bringing it up because of the fact that he's not participating in the conversation, so it's pointless to try to make assumptions about what he's thinking and feeling.

DressageQueen wrote:
When I read your first post I really got the impression that you struggle with being controlling over an obviously more naive person (people usually don't come out and tell a therapist "I was lying".. do you think perhaps it was you who got him to say that?).


It was written all over his face that he lied, and the therapist called him out on it. I really don't understand why you would accuse me of trying to get my husband to tell a therapist that he lied if he didn't.

DressageQueen wrote:
You admitted the few things that you do not control but he does (his work schedule, his household chores, his routine...) drive you insane, that you experience strong anger and resentment when he does not do what you tell him to around the house, and that you have developed a routine for you and your son that you have admittedly left him out of.


I didn't leave him out of anything. He even gave input as to what would work best for him on the "family" schedule. He chooses not to follow it.


DressageQueen wrote:
I believe you are not being sensitive to the fact he feels controlled by you and he began leaving himself out b/c he got so used to you 'taking over' everything in the first place. I think when he goes out and walks in the park all by himself that you should drop everything and join him, and bring your child along...maybe talk to him and try to be sensitive to him during that time


I've been to the park 3 times with him and my son in the last week. I can honestly say that we have likely all been to the park (or something like it) together at least 50 times in the last 6 months, and yes, I'm talking and enjoying our time together as much as anyone else that's there. This has not changed a thing.

DressageQueen wrote:
Yet, "argyle" came out and told you that you need to be even MORE controlling. I don't think being your husband's mom ("setting schedules" for him and giving him "verbal reassurance" and "praise") is necessarily the answer although I agree in argyle's own unique situation it has worked. If your husband were not functional enough to tie his own shoe laces a clever lady like you would not have married him.


Trust me, the last thing I want to do is be my husband's mother. That's why I'm reaching out in all directions for advice. Is your advice to me to just let my husband do whatever he feels like doing? Who is going to take care of the chores and cook and take care of my son and his special needs, and pay the bills and mow the lawn, and do the other million things that need to be done? Do you honestly think that if I just sit back and "join the party" that my husband is going to step up and start doing his share? (or any share?)

DressageQueen wrote:
I agree with "Bluemax". Even though I have never been married/divorced I still have the capacity to understand that "I am going to divorce you", well "them are fightin' words" and what they really mean is "I am going to take our child and you will never see him again so do everything I say or else..." I honestly can't say I "know" the situation b/c I don't, and I am not saying you are a bad person, but I am just interested to know if he shares your views about himself


To be very honest, I am not threatening him with leaving because I'm trying to control his behavior. I am actually thinking about leaving, and I'm letting him be aware of it so that he understands the severity of the situation. If I didn't do that, and just packed up and left one day, than I'd be wrong for just walking out without even giving him a chance to fix it. Since I've started to consider leaving, he hasn't done anything to change, and despite the fact that I gave him the contact information for the behavioral center that I'm attending, he has yet to contact them. My therapist (AS specialist) is just waiting for him so that we can start couples counselling.



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09 Oct 2012, 2:47 pm

BlueMax wrote:
So, please, try communicating another way before dropping the big bomb on him. And good luck - I really hope you succeed.


Thanks, I've tried communicating in every way possible. When I attempt to sit him down and look him in the eyes and have a serious talk, he just shuts down. Emailing him seems to work a little bit better, because he's able to at least express to me that he's understood what I've said.



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09 Oct 2012, 3:28 pm

argyle wrote:
I tend to look at pragmatic scheduling/chore division as taking responsibility for getting my own needs met. Sure, I could just hope that my wife would pitch in. (not gonna happen). I could lean back and wait for my wife to pick up the slack. (tried this, got tired of the dog excrement matting the carpet) I could agree to split the chores evenly (my half got done...hers didn't...she said the division was unfair...and pitched a fit when I offered to swap.) I could also just give up. (but hate walking on dog excrement) Or, I could ask my wife what she'll actually do - leave her to do those portions - do the things I'm willing to to/care about, pay for the things I'd rather pay for, and not bother with things that I don't care about and that she's not willing to pay for or do. (Eg, hanging her laundry.) I do feel a bit of amusement every few months when she runs out of clothes, whines, and then gives up and brings some of her clothes inside.* It would probably be pretty reasonable to try all of the above and see how they go - your husband may well react differently from my wife.


I agree, and I did try this on a very small scale - by not mentioning the fact that it was about time he got his hair cut. Well, the months passed and now it's in his eyes, so he finally made an appointment to get it cut on his own. I really worry about things like this though, because whether or not he looks appropriate for work does effect me too, but I let it slide this time. The thing is though, there's only so many things that I can really do this with. I let him wear shoes with holes in them to work for a few months too, until his mother got mad at ME and she bought him new shoes (! !! !! !! !) (this speaks volumes about where the problem originated, ugh).

argyle wrote:
Dressage is right - it is important to avoid being his mom. OTOH, agreeing on a schedule isn't being his mom - that's just being reasonably well-organized. Reminding him constantly throughout the week - is being his mom. I'd avoid that. Reviewing how the schedule actually worked in practice and then making changes - is just being reasonably well-organized. The most frustrating part, for me, is the way my wife will agree to any fair schedule with no resistance, fight me if I assign myself most of the chores, and then absolutely fail to follow through. The schedule review serves 2 purposes. First off, you'll be able to recalibrate your expectations based on what your husband actually does and plan around that. Expect iteration. Second off, he'll have a better understanding of why you'd like to spend money on XYZ. The point isn't to change your husband, the point is to get through life with a lower stress level.


I think that this is excellent advice. My husband also agree's to a fair schedule with no resistance, he'll even offer suggestions at the time of planning - with no follow through. Re calibrating my expectations is just about the only thing I feel like I can do at this point.

argyle wrote:
Regarding praise, eh, simple relationship maintenance and communication. There's enough frustration in any relationship that making a point of having positive interactions - particularly when your S/O does things you like - is a good idea. The only purpose of constant criticism is to drive your partner away from you.


I will try to do this.

argyle wrote:
Regarding rigidity, you seem rigid - and it probably is how you cope with the world - so asking you to give up the rigidity seems impractical.** Instead of trying to merge two very different lifestyles (not gonna work, usually doesn't for NTs, let alone Aspies) - I wonder whether or not you could make a different arrangement. It sounds like your husband isn't willing/able to provide any sort of reliable scheduled support. (Ask him first.) If you free up your schedule, you could set aside some chunks of time where - if he was around - you could tag along with him? preferably out of the house and away from anything you see as a duty - and if he's not around on a given day - amuse yourself with a hobby. Also, when he's around, just ask him for help with XYZ and leave - I'd be grateful for an unpaid babysitter who dropped by randomly.


I am rigid, and it is how I cope. If I could find another way to cope, I would gladly take that instead. I will try this.

argyle wrote:
From watching my mother, rigidity is a small problem until you combine it with unrealistic expectations. It may be easier to let go of perfection than rigidity. Unless your husband is a negative contributor, he probably brings something to the R/S. It helped to prioritize. I'd love it if our child could attend karate lessons while I'm at work, or eat cooked meals, or be bathed by someone other than me. I'd be dancing if there weren't plates of moldy food left on every flat surface when I get home from a trip. It'd be even better if our child's mother could do something other than plop our child in front of the TV. Heck, bathing before meeting our friends is something I'd kind of expected. But, our child loves mom, and she reads to our child occasionally, and buys groceries, and plays with our child in preschool. Oh well, except for the fighting, probably better than divorce.


Thanks, I think that I've more or less let go of perfection, but I don't think I'll ever be able to handle life without structure. I will try to start to focus on what he can do, and figure out alternative ways to get everything else to work, without overloading myself with stress. I guess that's already what I'm doing for the most part though, and I do think that things will be a lot easier for me once I can sell our house. I'll have less to handle, and more money to shell out for assistance.

Thanks for your advice here, it does seem very practical and fitting for my situation. Not to mention, it does put the most positive spin on things that I think is possible.



missoni
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09 Oct 2012, 3:31 pm

Your relationship sounds almost exactly like my relationship with my aspie husband (I am also AS).
I am the emotional type of aspie and my husband is the logical type of Aspie. I have no real "solutions" that I can offer, but I can definitely offer some causal explanations for what is happening (from my experience, because I am not an AS therapist). I think you might have a higher desire to synchronize your schedule with your partner. You like to have weekend, yearly family vacation, where to go for christmas, etc... planned in advance. You also would like to "synch" with your partner your daily activities, like what time you go to sleep, what time you have dinner together, etc... I am this way (I think this is an NT like characteristic of mine but I am not sure). I cannot get my husband to "synch" or plan anything with any advance notice, even daily tasks such as dinner time and "lights out" time at night. He may not feel the need to synch his schedule with you at all.

For this problem, I have also considered moving out, having my own weekend plans that exclude him, and also trying to do things completely independently with him. `This is because I get depressed when I am trying (I have the innate need to synch with my partner) synchronize my life/schedule with someone who cannot/or will not synch with others at all. However, it's good to keep in mind that neither I nor him have tried communicating our needs to each other. I do everything around the house as well, including getting flea medication for my pets and dropping off his drycleaning and I am over-whelmed.

Another possible causal explanation is that time passes in a completely different way for my logical AS husband. He lives for the moment in a solitary and independent way. He doesn't think of his life in terms of weeks, months and yearly events/scheduling and does not keep things in the back of his head as well as I do. He has no memory or capacity to keep track of things that happen in the future because he experience things in the "now." He has a cell phone alarm for everything because he can't think of his day as a whole event, but lives in the "now" of every minute.

Solutions? These are the things we've tried-- every day start out with a plan for what will happen when-- dinner time, lights out time, what time you or he will be home from work. This is especially important on weekends when you are together a lot more and you will try to synch with him more than on weekdays.

The problem, with this solution so far, is that although it has been helpful, it's been an artificial replacement for his inability to synch. He will eventually synch out of time with you again and again and in the long run, you will feel off synch with him ultimately. For now, I am trying to synch with my only child (who is only 4) and also my friends. I don't work, so my schedule is all over the place right now, but things will be better when I work again. This is all I have tried for now, and hope that my explanations help.



lady_katie
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09 Oct 2012, 3:40 pm

missoni wrote:
The problem, with this solution so far, is that although it has been helpful, it's been an artificial replacement for his inability to synch. He will eventually synch out of time with you again and again and in the long run, you will feel off synch with him ultimately. For now, I am trying to synch with my only child (who is only 4) and also my friends. I don't work, so my schedule is all over the place right now, but things will be better when I work again. This is all I have tried for now, and hope that my explanations help.


Thanks so much, this is incredibly helpful actually. I can definitely relate to everything you wrote here.

Would you happen to know if there's a book or something on this? Or did you just come up with all of that from observation?



missoni
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09 Oct 2012, 3:44 pm

I completely agree about the lying thing. My husband lies a lot too and he is a logical AS. He says he lies to get me off his back and after he's tried telling the truth and it fails. I have issues with his lying. I think it is a "coping" method he devised up to live life as an Aspie. I am not always aware, but I try to empathize and anticipate when he will lie, and keep in mind that he lies a lot, if he feels that telling the truth isn't working for him.

Your husband has qualities that I have as well, which are putting things off when he is tired and overwhelmed, and getting his needs met like walking at a park instead of cleaning the house, etc... I suggest that he has scheduled times that are independent of you to get those needs met like walking at a park, so that he can help you around the house more often. He might not be getting his breaks or needs met enough so he might be doing them when you are around. How old is your kid? your life might be more manageable after the kid has grown more.



JCJC777
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09 Oct 2012, 9:27 pm

one other thought is you could use REBT (read an Albert Ellis book)/CBT (e.g. moodgym.anu.edu.au) to analyse your own thinking and maybe see if you could decouple from some of the demanding in your mind
e.g.
rather than
he must synch with me
say
it would be nice if he synched with me but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't



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10 Oct 2012, 9:59 am

lady_katie wrote:

I really don't think it's necessary to go and insult the entire forum here.


Yes, that is interesting and I think you are really onto something here. I think I am realising that I lack the 'follow the crowd'/herd mentality and instead I tend to stand up for the 'little guy'. Seemingly attributes but in reality, along with being argumentive and counterproductive, really hold me back in life. Very interesting, I am definitly going to start working on that



argyle
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10 Oct 2012, 12:09 pm

The last bit is probably obvious...but just in case...

You're selling your house. If you lower the price, it will sell faster. Every month you stay in the house costs you money and time. For example, if you just paid some serious maid service to make the house spic-and-span for showings, it's cost a few hundred dollars per showing. Also, housing prices are changing with time - depending on the area.

Given current real estate values, it may be depressing, but it would still be wise to sit down with a spreadsheet and figure out what makes sense. Some possible answers are:

(a) Drop the price significantly - and see how much people bid it up.
(b) Keep on with what you're doing, but pay people to help with showings.
(c) Keep on with what you're doing, but keep the house moderately clean.
(d) Stop trying to sell, and just sit on the house until prices go up.

--Argyle
PS Crossing my fingers for you. :)



lady_katie
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10 Oct 2012, 5:52 pm

JCJC777 wrote:
one other thought is you could use REBT (read an Albert Ellis book)/CBT (e.g. moodgym.anu.edu.au) to analyse your own thinking and maybe see if you could decouple from some of the demanding in your mind
e.g.
rather than
he must synch with me
say
it would be nice if he synched with me but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't


Thanks, I am in behavioral therapy right now, and I am completely willing to try to learn ways to work around these issues.



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10 Oct 2012, 6:02 pm

argyle wrote:
The last bit is probably obvious...but just in case...

You're selling your house. If you lower the price, it will sell faster. Every month you stay in the house costs you money and time. For example, if you just paid some serious maid service to make the house spic-and-span for showings, it's cost a few hundred dollars per showing. Also, housing prices are changing with time - depending on the area.

Given current real estate values, it may be depressing, but it would still be wise to sit down with a spreadsheet and figure out what makes sense. Some possible answers are:

(a) Drop the price significantly - and see how much people bid it up.
(b) Keep on with what you're doing, but pay people to help with showings.
(c) Keep on with what you're doing, but keep the house moderately clean.
(d) Stop trying to sell, and just sit on the house until prices go up.

--Argyle
PS Crossing my fingers for you. :)


Thanks, I'm trying to sell by owner right now and offering a 3% commission to buyers agents. Honestly, I don't even think that I could afford to pay a Realtor even if I wanted to. They all want 7% around here. I freelance in marketing and graphic design, and I have worked in Real Estate marketing before, so I have a half way decent handle on what I'm doing from that end, and I'm planning to hire an attorney if/when we get an offer. (Already talked to them about pricing, it's totally reasonable). We've been listed for almost 2 months and I've managed to get 7 or 8 showings so far, but no offers. (we live in the country, so that's a decent amount considering the lack of potential buyers)

At this point, I'm considering 3 options:

1- Drop the price by a few thousand (the most that I can afford to do).
2- Start talking to banks about taking out a loan so that I can drop the price by a lot.
3- Take it off the market next month and wait out the winter and try again in the spring, hoping for a miracle in the market.

If I do take out a loan so that I can drop the price, it'll pay for itself in a round about way. I just feel like the last thing I need is more loans (we have a pile of student debt.)



argyle
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10 Oct 2012, 6:56 pm

Ah, if you're significantly underwater, consider behaving like a responsible financial firm. :roll: Start out with negotiating a principal reduction. Then, offer to stop paying the mortgage and make the bank evict you. (Please research this first...I am not an expert...just listened to some relatives considering this option.) As I understand it - the bank gets the house, the mortgage, and a lot of legal fees. You get to live in a house rent free for 6-9 months. They do have an incentive to negotiate.

On that subject, if you can pay off student loans with homeowner's loans, bankruptcy can look like a good option. (Which might make such loans problematic.)

If you aren't underwater (and it sounds like you aren't quite underwater), try looking into federally-assisted mortgage modification programs. They originally weren't doing much, but have recently been much more active. (I was refused the first time, went through recently, wasn't much work.) Not worth it if you need to move, but handy if you'd like to lower your payments.

Thing I notice is that, from a purely fiscal point of view, all of your options except (3) sound worse than walking away (and pocketing 6-9 months rent) - once you've added in the stress of months and months of showings. Albeit #3 really could pay off pretty well.

--Argyle