Lying
08 Nov 2012, 8:18 am
It's commonly thought that people on the autism spectrum are bad at lying or unwilling to lie. I'm on the autism spectrum and I lie a lot, and I did moreso as a child. I feel kind of bad about it.
The situation of being in trouble and being questioned about doing something wrong is horrible to me. (And always makes me cry. Even now that I'm 20. It's embarrassing). It's a very pressureful situation. And I tend to be awkward at communicating at the best of times. Generally, speaking out loud the thing I want to say in my mind doesn't come wholly naturally to me. It's like, there's the thing in my head I am trying to say, and the thing that it comes out as, and never shall the twain meet, so I end up making stuff up because it's easier. I can usually say what I think when I'm not under pressure or when I'm having a casual conversation with a friend, but when an older person is angry at me and questioning me angrily, it gets incredibly hard to express what is in my mind and I usually end up making random things up.
Maybe if you really commend him for the times he is honest and point it out to him, that might improve things. Or taking a non-confrontational approach. It can be very hard for an autistic person to tell the truth when they feel confronted.
08 Nov 2012, 9:23 am
This is rather long, so don't bother opening it if you don't have time to read it in its entirety. Something I posted on another site about AS and lying.
http://www.dailystrength.org/people/138 ... al/1417709
Hope it helps.
Here's an excerpt to give you an idea of the philosophy behind the article:
_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...
08 Nov 2012, 9:52 am
Someone can lie by telling part of the truth and failing to mention other information that is relevant to the issue at hand.
Have you paid any attention to the recent Apple v Samsung trial in which the juror foreman clearly did not fully answer questions during voire dire in a truthful manner.
Let's see. On the first row, who would raise their hand to that question? All right. let's go to Mr. Hogan.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: In 2008, after my company went belly up, the programmer that worked for me filed a lawsuit against me and ultimately, across the next few months, it was dismissed and in such a fashion that neither one of us could sue the other one for that matter.
THE COURT: What was his -- what was the employee's claim?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: It was a dispute over the software that we had developed, whether it belonged to the company or to him, and I had documents that showed it belonged to the company. Ultimately, as I said, it would -- we settled out of court and it was dismissed.
THE COURT: All right. Anything about that experience that would affect your ability to be fair and impartial to both sides in this case?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I don't believe so.
THE COURT: Okay. Was there any dispute -- was there any dispute as to who had created and invented the technology, or was it largely who had ownership of it?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: It was strictly who had ownership of it, and ultimately it was established that the company did have ownership of it, although -- and I still do -- although the company is not in business any longer.
THE COURT: I see. But was there a sort of dispute as to who had created or invented the technology as part of that ownership question?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, there was.
THE COURT: Um-hum.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: But like I said, we settled that -- because of documentation I had, we were able to settle it out of court and then we went back to court one last time for the dismissal paperwork.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you.... So I want to make sure that both Mr. Hogan, and Ms. Rougieri, that you would apply the law as I instruct you and not based on your understanding of the law based on your own cases. Is that correct, Mr. Hogan?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes.....
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Would that in any way -- you'll be instructed on what the law is and would you be able to follow the instructions I give you on the law, even if it may not completely correspond to what you may know about the patent system or the intellectual property laws?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, I follow your instructions.
...
THE COURT: Okay. And do you have any patent applications pending now?.... Let's go to Mr. Hogan. You had some?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Excuse me. In 2002, I filed for a patent in video compression software, and in 2008, the patent was issued to me. And in 2008 I filed a follow-on patent in more detail and that is currently pending.
THE COURT: I see. Okay. All right....
THE COURT: Now, same for Mr. Tepman, as well as to Mr. Hogan. You all have a lot of experience, but will you be able to decide this case based solely on the evidence that's admitted during the trial?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Hogan says yes. What about Mr. Tepman?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I think so, too.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you. Now, was anyone else going to answer yes to the question of have you ever had an idea taken from you? The record should reflect no hands have been raised. Now, the next question, have you ever been accused of taking an idea from someone else? Would you please raise your hand? All right. Let's go to Mr. Hogan. Would you please pass the microphone, Mr. Tepman? Thank you.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: As I had stated earlier, that was -- in 2008, that was the accusation against me before the patent was issued. But as I said, that case ultimately was dropped in my favor.
THE COURT: Now, when the programmer sued you, was that programmer also a co-inventor on the patent?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: No....
THE COURT: No. I see.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: The patent was issued totally -- exclusively in my name.
THE COURT: I see.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR: And I had filed for that patent prior to his joining the effort to work for it. That was part of my documentation showing that it was mine.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Let me ask, if you have strong feelings or strong opinions about either the United States patent system or intellectual property laws, would you raise your hand, please? The record should reflect that no hands have been raised....
In this case, the prospective juror, Velvin Hogan, told about one case, but neglected to tell the court about a case he was involved that would surely have led to him being excused from the jury pool. He tried to rationalize his answer by saying it was more then ten years previously, but the court clearly asked about all cases, not just in the past ten years. Some people have also tried to rationalize his answer for him by claiming that since he was not explicitly asked if there were any other cases other than the one he mentioned, then he wasn't lying. But, in truth, by not bringing it to the court's attention in a timely manner, he was lying.
Also note that he said he would follow the court's instructions. In fact, he did not do so. Instead of going by the law as instructed by the judge, he came up with his own very wrong interpretation of the applicable law and led the other jurors to go along with his wrong interpretation to arrive at a judgement for Apple in excess of a billion dollars. In this case, he may have really believed that he would follow the court's instructions, but by not doing so during deliberations, he rendered his statement that he would follow the court's instructions into an outright lie.
Finally, note that when asked if anyone had strong feelings or opinions about the patent system, he failed to raise his hands. Yet, it turned out that he did indeed have strong feelings about them. So his failing to respond was a lie even though he didn't give any answer at all.
08 Nov 2012, 9:52 am
My dd5 lies and I think its a similar situation, she panics and makes things up, then goes back on it and is digging herself deeper the more she talks!
Last edited by ConfusedNewb on 08 Nov 2012, 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
08 Nov 2012, 11:55 am
eric76 I think the point is that there must be intentionality for something to be considered a lie. If the juror in your example told only part of the truth or said nothing with the intention of evading the Court's questions, then he lied. A child who completely believes e.g., that he did not say something because he honestly believes it was only a thought in his head is not lying. Mistaken yes, but not lying.
08 Nov 2012, 12:31 pm
Ive been wondering about this imagination thing, it seems a lack of imaginative play is one of the criteria for Aspies yet Im always being told what an active imagination my daughter has, and in a way she has, she can make some really odd stuff up! But when she plays shes just repeating real life scenarios in play form so not really playing make believe like most kids do. Sorry not wanting to hijack the post!
In many ways, it is all related. Play is a way of working out real life issues for children, so you often see in clues in play about what children are either fascinated by or are struggling to figure out in real life.
And lying and fantasy have a large overlap in younger children, where truth and reality are not solid concepts. Very young children seem to honestly believe that saying something is so, will make it so.
Plus, we confuse the heck out of kids by teaching some white lies under the guise of being polite, and using imprecise language that gives them large openings to say something that is true, but not an answer to the question to we meant to ask. Sorting through all that takes time and patience.
Personally, to the OP, I would just throw out the words lying and truth and focus and on "what actually happened," "reality" and "perception." Walk through careful autopsies of troubling situations, fact and detail driven, and discuss all the possible ways of describing each step, and it might have been perceived. Eventually you can add in the concept of trust, and how relationships depend upon trust.
It was very successful for me to approach all these issues as something my son was in the process of learning with good intentions, rather than as something "bad" that I needed to correct. It helped us build a bond, give and take. I really trust my children at this point in their lives, 12 and 15, when it really counts.
And maybe it wouldn't hurt if your son had a chance someday to live out just how tangled the web can get when you try to deceive, how one little lie leads to another, and before you know it you are in a much worse place than if you'd just told the truth the first time. My son created one of those webs in 4th or 5th grade with some boast he made to a friend, and it was so hard not to burst out laughing when he needed help untangling the whole thing. He never did it again.
_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
08 Nov 2012, 2:05 pm
Personally, in our house we make a specific distinction between "lying" and "not telling the whole truth."
This offers you a legitimate escape in social "white lies;" you don't have to break the rule about lying, and you don't have to hurt the feelings of the person who asked you a question you can't answer politely. For instance, we are teaching my son to answer questions about his thoughts on stuff he doesn't care about with polite evasions that could be literally true: "You put a lot of hard work/thought into that Halloween costume." instead of "(Character) sucks!"
Something to think about.
08 Nov 2012, 3:04 pm
Someone can lie by telling part of the truth and failing to mention other information that is relevant to the issue at hand.
Have you paid any attention to the recent Apple v Samsung trial in which the juror foreman clearly did not fully answer questions during voire dire in a truthful manner.
<snip>
No I have not, but sorry, I'm failing to see what the case, or your point has to do with what I said. The example of telling part of the truth and failing to mention other information falls under "deliberate." The entire point of my post is more accurately deduced from reading the entire post I linked to. What you are referring to here is not really relevant to the points I made there.
Children on the spectrum can often speak things that are not accurate or not true, without actually "lying." It can be damaging to simply assume they are always deliberately lying. Sometimes, even if they really are lying, it can be better if we do not know for sure, to act upon the assumption they believe what they are saying. Of course, if one is absolutely positive the child is lying, that may not be the best option, however there can also be times when one is positive the chold is lying, to react as if they are not lying, and allow them to "fall on their own sword" so to speak. Read the whole post and you'll see what I mean.
_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...
08 Nov 2012, 4:46 pm
I do think it's harsh to say someone is lying because they could be mistaken, misinformed, have a false memory, or they believe their own BS, they are crazy, they have the wrong perspective. I read that toddlers don't mean to lie, two year olds have such short memory spans they will not member things they did that day such as coloring on the wall but yet they may know their colors and numbers so if you accuse them of coloring on the wall, they will deny it because they do believe they didn't do it only because they do not remember doing it. Kids that young also do not understand the difference between reality and fantasy so anything they imagine the think is real. I think the first time I truly lied was when I was five years old. I knew it wasn't true and I said it anyway. I just didn't want to get into trouble is why but what I didn't know was my dad was going to find out once he gets the bathroom door opened I locked my brother in to see the light in there is shut off and I said I had turned it on when I locked him in there. I also remember I was supposed to spit my gum out but instead I went to the trash and pretended to spit it out and said I did and hid the gum under my tongue when I opened my mouth so mom could make sure I spat it out. I also remember trying to be sneaky when I wouldn't stop peeing in the playhouse. It had became a ritual for me and I had a hard time topping so I started to lie about doing it but mother knew I was lying because I was the only one who did it, not her, not my dad and not my brothers because they were still in diapers and never went out there to pee. It be fair to say in these situations I was lying because it was a true lie.
I think people sometimes throw the word lie around too much. It hurts to get accused of lying when you are not because to me lying implies deliberate and if you believe what you are saying, you are not lying. Is a schizophrenic lying when they say they have four husbands when really they only have one? Is my aunt lying when she claims she has eight children instead of two and she is onto her 4th husband when she has only been married once? She is also a schizophrenic and she has these memories about her life and they never happened. That is just her mental illness giving her those false memories.
I also see people say they lied even though it was unintentional. They go "Oops I lied...." like the time my choir teacher said someone was coming to our class and then few days later, she said she lied and then tells us that they won't be coming after all and I forget the reason why. I remember the time I tried to invite someone to go to a movie with me and she said she didn't want to go. She apparently called back to explain why and I was home then because the tickets were sold out. Mom then discovered I was actually home and she got upset with herself saying she lied to the girl because she told her I wasn't home. I told her she didn't lie because she thought I wasn't home. But mom still said it was a lie.
People even say weathermen lie because they predict the weather and then that weather doesn't happen. They are not lying, weather patterns sometimes change and weather is sometimes unpredictable. They are not doing it intentionally. I have also seen people say people lie in newspapers, news people lie. No they do not. they just report things they get and people also express their opinions when they write an article. But of course people will say about things "that's a lie" when they mean it's not true. It's just an opinion or false belief they have.
i knew of one blogger online, she wrote about her childfree life but she also ranted about parents on welfare and how parents raise their kids. pregnancy and maternity leave. Well people who would read her blogs and misinterpret what she wrote or assume things she wrote and jump to a conclusion, she said they were lying because things thy claim she said or thinks wasn't true so she said they were lying.
I think some people are too black and white about the word it can do damage. My mom is a little black and white about it, that one blogger seemed to be extremely black and white about it. My choir teacher may have been black and white about it too since she would say "I lied" when it was unintentional. But luckily my mother didn't always call me a liar because she took her time to understand how my mind worked to know I am not lying technically so she didn't call me a liar about it. That would have done me emotional damage if she kept calling me a liar. She also had to learn to see things from my point of view and see my perspective. That also means she didn't easily throw the word lie around about me. So she can see shades of gray about it. She wouldn't even call her schizophrenic sister a liar either nor say she makes stuff up and nor would she say an elderly is lying because of their memory declining or because of their Alzheimer's so they get their stories mixed up like my grandfather did.
I have also seen a mod here say on another forum that banned members love to make stuff up. I disagree and I find it harsh to say that also. I think it's just their perspective they are telling and their perspective of the situation may be wrong but that doesn't mean they are making it up. I was once called paranoid but I took no offense to it because at least she wasn't calling me a liar. But it implied she didn't believe me and that I was wrong about what happened.
I also know just because someone isn't telling the whole story doesn't mean they are lying. They may have forgotten to add that little detail or they didn't find it important to mention it or they just forgot about that detail at the moment they were telling it. Like a kid may come home from school and complain their teacher made them stay inside for recess. The parent asks her why did her teacher do that and the kid goes "because she is mean" and the parent asks her but why did she take it from her, there had to be a reason. The child may say she talked during the lecture and the parent may ask her why did she talk when she wasn't supposed to and the kid may say because the other kid was kicking her chair so she yelled at him to quit. So the parent may call the teacher to talk to her about it asking for her side and the teacher gives a total different story but still has similar details the kid told. Did the kid lie? I would say not and it had to do with perspective and what kid told what she thought was important. But sadly, parents automatically side with their child assuming the teacher was the bad guy so they get mad at them about it. They assume what their child told them is true rather than going to the teacher to hear her side to get the facts. The teacher giving the student three warnings or she stays inside for recess, the kid leaves that out because she didn't find it important to her side of the story. So her yelling at her classmate for kicking her chair was her last warning so she basically got into trouble because she had been disruptive so the teacher finally told her three more strikes, she stays inside and the classmate just happened to kick her chair and the girl happened to be on her last warning when she yelled. It's like focusing on the detail instead of the big picture so the child claims she got into trouble for no reason because the teacher is "mean" because she punished her for yelling at a kid for kicking her chair. That may also be the case with aspie kids too. They focus on the detail of a situation so it may seem like they are lying because they left out all the other details and also because they have different perspectives and have a hard time reading social situations.
Lying is the last thing I accuse people of. I try and give everyone the benefit of the doubt, even my enemies. But sometimes I still believe and am positive sure that person is lying.
_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses.
22 Dec 2012, 10:17 am
I saw this article on teen lying; we are doing something similar and having some success, so I thought I'd find a thread here to share it: http://www.webmd.com/parenting/features ... ing-to-you?
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