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GGPViper
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21 Nov 2012, 6:45 pm

thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I have responded to your link about the mumbai bombings.

The rest of your post is just a strawman not worth acknowledging.


Yes, I have noticed how the socialist/communist WP posters try to squirm their way out of debates when I ask for peer-reviewed economic evidence... Perhaps your instinct for self-preservation finally acknowledged that I am vastly more informed on economics than you are?


When you say peer-reviewed economic evidence what you really mean is spun regurgitated rubbish from the mainstream media concocted by whatever hackneyed rentagob is the flavour of the hour.

Sorry, but i have as much distrust for these sources as you do of 'partisan pseudoscience Marxist websites'.

In the words of George Orwell, 'in times of great deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act'.

FYI : I'm not a communist.


You clearly lack even a rudimentary understanding of the concept of science.

If you believe that a scientific journal has fallen short of the scientific method when accepting an article, then please provide examples. The claim can then be either not rejected or rejected using the method of falsification.


I follow Marxism is as much that i am subscriber of dialetic materialism and that i concur with his theories on the alienation of labour.

I do not care much for the input of the conventional economic community because of their shady motives and their lack of a broader perspective on the social side of their own discipline.


And I follow the principles laid down by scientific giants like Karl Popper who rejected Marxism (and its BS terms) because of its pseudo-scientific content.

And your perspective on the so-called "lack of a broader perspective on the social side of their own discipline" is probably due to your lack of insight in the actual economic studies, and not a lack of actual economic studies. I recommend Becker, Arrow, Sen and Buchanan...

No one with any respect for science even bothers with the Hegelian-Marxist concept of "dialectical materialism". It is pure BS.



Awesomelyglorious
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21 Nov 2012, 7:02 pm

thomas81 wrote:
I do not care much for the input of the conventional economic community because of their shady motives and their lack of a broader perspective on the social side of their own discipline.

Their shady motives??? I doubt you've even MET an economist, and yet somehow despite that handicap, you can somehow read their minds and tell me what all of them are motivated by. I'm either really really impressed or stunned by the absurdity.

Even further, you haven't refuted their value or their research or anything of that nature. Even the "lack of broader perspective" is just vagueness, but it doesn't refute anything. It certainly doesn't show that they are poor researchers or that they don't use good empirics.

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Besides which mainstream economics bores the crap out of me. We need to transfer to a resource based system.

So, you're incompetent to speak of it, and yet you have the most vocal opinion?

Also, just an FYI, a market-based system isn't a "resource ignorant system". Money's value is largely because it can be converted into resources or processed resources(that's why these strange papers are the things we all strive for), and the interaction of supply and demand is partially an issue in trying to make sure that this system efficiently processes available resources. Why? Because if the processing of a market is inefficient, then there is an incentive by other agents to produce the same good using even lower costs and less resources to make more sales. However, if money doesn't reflect the resources available to the system, then that system breaks down, that's why hyperinflation is a problem. (But nations don't suffer hyperinflation unless somebody is screwing over the money supply)



marshall
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21 Nov 2012, 7:28 pm

Jacoby wrote:
marshall wrote:
Seabass wrote:
The title of this thread is correct, there are slaves in this world as we speak. But then you had to ruin it with your biased little rant. My turn, I think socialist principles have caused the bondage of more slaves then true capitalism. Especially since a true, libertarian for of capitalism has never existed. You can try to argue that, but I see no point.

I find it hilarious that market libertarians and socialists do the exact same thing. There has never been "true free-market capitalism" just like there has never been "true communism". In no way do such claims show that your more "pure" ideology will ever actually work in the real world. Come up with real arguments instead of regurgitating things you hear.


And what of your beliefs? How are they working in the real world? Do you even know what you believe?

I don't need to claim I have certainty. "I don't know" should be an acceptable answer when that is the truth. I have more confidence to say that certain systems won't work because instances of moving in that direction in the past had poor results.



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21 Nov 2012, 7:48 pm

ruveyn wrote:
RushKing wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:
Seabass wrote:
The title of this thread is correct, there are slaves in this world as we speak. But then you had to ruin it with your biased little rant. My turn, I think socialist principles have caused the bondage of more slaves then true capitalism. Especially since a true, libertarian for of capitalism has never existed. You can try to argue that, but I see no point.

I find it hilarious that market libertarians and socialists do the exact same thing. There has never been "true free-market capitalism" just like there has never been "true communism". In no way do such claims show that your more "pure" ideology will ever actually work in the real world. Come up with real arguments instead of regurgitating things you hear.


Here is a plain fact. Slavery is illegal in the United States and it is NOT illegal in Saudi Arabia. Guess where most of the slavery is?

ruveyn

It's chattel slavery that's illegal.


That is the only kind of slavery. Employment is not slavery because there is no legal compulsion to take a job, nor is physical force or threat thereof used to make any take any particular job. Also anyone holding a job is free to quite.

The existential condition of having to work for one's bread is not slavery. It is the human condition. People have always had to do some kind of labor to receive their sustainance. The fact there we cannot turn inorganic chemicals into food with the aid of sunlight is not slavery. Humans must grow their food, hunt their food or trade their labor or goods for food. That is not slavery. That is reality.

ruveyn

Capitalism forces people to work for a boss to survive. I can't even run around and pick berrys because all the land around me has been privatized.



ruveyn
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21 Nov 2012, 8:31 pm

RushKing wrote:
Capitalism forces people to work for a boss to survive. I can't even run around and pick berrys because all the land around me has been privatized.


What about people who start their own businesses or make their living as freelance writers, consultants, repair persons, etc. There were not forced to work for a boss but they still had to labor to get their bread.

ruveyn



RushKing
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21 Nov 2012, 8:37 pm

ruveyn wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Capitalism forces people to work for a boss to survive. I can't even run around and pick berrys because all the land around me has been privatized.


What about people who start their own businesses or make their living as freelance writers, consultants, repair persons, etc. There were not forced to work for a boss but they still had to labor to get their bread.

ruveyn

You mean people born into families with purchasing power?



blackelk
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22 Nov 2012, 2:04 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
blackelk wrote:
The problem is that economics is a pseudoscience that is treated like a real science. It is closer to an ideology.

Right, because I'm sure you've spent a lot of time researching it.

Economics is a social science. It's not an ideology, and economists of different ideologies frequently can have meaningful discussions and use similar frameworks for solving some of the same problems.

The Taleb quote is pretty useless for your point, as you're somehow operating on the assumption that most of economics is really macroeconomic predictions, when it really isn't. Because it isn't, referring to failed economic predictions does nothing to discredit the field, especially given that macroeconomics used for predictions is pretty different than the rest of the body of knowledge. So, the meat and bones of economics is really microeconomics, and microeconomics actually has a lot of very good predictive theories.

Also, your comment on Marxism is pretty deeply questionable because of how Marxism has failed in the theory of value, but also generally failed to provide a strong research program. People are Marxists out of ideology, but people are capitalists out of pragmatism given their background knowledge. I mean, we can go into a huge dissection on how all of this stuff works and interrelates, but really, you're just using bare assertions and pretending that economics is a pomo fest rather than a discipline that's actually growing and trying to do what it can.


Can you prove anything you just said scientifically, or are you just telling just so stories that fit your agenda? This is a philosophical argument, nothing more.

What has economics actually given us? How has the field made our lives better?

And the greatest scientific accomplishments and institutions are run and organized by the state.


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22 Nov 2012, 5:50 am

I don't have the energy to read 5 pages, but science is not monolith. It is a word for many different schools of thought of what science is and is not.
The same goes for ethics, but if we are to use science then here is a part of it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/magaz ... wanted=all

In short all ethical systems try to deal with harm, group, authority, fairness and purity. Now my claim is that science can be used to describe that it is so, but that science itself is not an ethical system, but rather a tool. How this tool is understood and used/misused can't be settled by science itself, because that is outside what science is (to me).



ruveyn
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22 Nov 2012, 12:08 pm

blackelk wrote:
What has economics actually given us? How has the field made our lives better?

And the greatest scientific accomplishments and institutions are run and organized by the state.


Thomas Edison electrified lower Manhattan (from Houston St. to the Battery) our of his own pocket.

The Freres Wright invented the first -controllable- heavier than air flying machine out of their own pocket. $1200 1903 dollars. Samuel Langley, Phd, got a $50,000 grant from Congress (40 times what the Wrights spent) and produced three ludicrous failures. The electronic computer was invented by Atsenoff in 1938 using private funds. Robert Goddard invented the first successful liquid propelled rocket out of his own pocket. Both Marconi and Tesla invented wireless telegraphy and radio out of their own pocket. The first working internal combustion autos were developed by their inventors using private funds. George Westinghouse invented and manufactured the first successful positive pressure air brakes in 1859 out of his own pocket. The Panama Canal was built using mostly private funds.

You ought to study some history, son.

ruveyn



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22 Nov 2012, 12:42 pm

There are plenty of highly intelligent critics of the mainstream neoclassical school and it's association with global policy setters like the IMF and World Bank. You have will known insiders like Joseph Steiglits. Then you have less well known outsiders, the "real world economics" people, who do not rigidly subscribe to any particular heterodox school. I find it annoying when elitist proponents of neoclassical economics lump all critics in with Marxists. It's also perfectly fair to agree with the sociological and ethical concerns brought up by Marx without subscribing to all the obscure jargon and admittedly flawed theoretical models Marx came up with. The criticisms of neoclassical economics do not come solely from the left either. There is actually quite a bit of overlap between Austrian, Post-Keynesian, and even Marxian arguments on the role credit and debt have in the economy.



Last edited by marshall on 22 Nov 2012, 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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22 Nov 2012, 12:48 pm

RushKing wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Capitalism forces people to work for a boss to survive. I can't even run around and pick berrys because all the land around me has been privatized.


What about people who start their own businesses or make their living as freelance writers, consultants, repair persons, etc. There were not forced to work for a boss but they still had to labor to get their bread.

ruveyn

You mean people born into families with purchasing power?


I know several "poor boys" who made it on their own efforts.

Andrew Carnegie who became a genuine billionaire come from Scotland with only the clothes on his back and a few coins in in pocket. Ben Franklin was a juvinile delingujant who made it good in Philadelphia with no help from his parents who had given up on him.

You are really committed to your sociologically and economically bigoted world view, aren't you.

ruveyn



marshall
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22 Nov 2012, 1:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:
RushKing wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Capitalism forces people to work for a boss to survive. I can't even run around and pick berrys because all the land around me has been privatized.


What about people who start their own businesses or make their living as freelance writers, consultants, repair persons, etc. There were not forced to work for a boss but they still had to labor to get their bread.

ruveyn

You mean people born into families with purchasing power?


I know several "poor boys" who made it on their own efforts.

Andrew Carnegie who became a genuine billionaire come from Scotland with only the clothes on his back and a few coins in in pocket. Ben Franklin was a juvinile delingujant who made it good in Philadelphia with no help from his parents who had given up on him.

You are really committed to your sociologically and economically bigoted world view, aren't you.

ruveyn


Is there even a name for this "the rare exception discounts the common rule" type of fallacy. :roll:



marshall
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22 Nov 2012, 1:16 pm

I guess this thread just serves to prove that intelligent debate is impossible. All I see are both sides banging their heads against the wall over irreconcilable ethical disagreements. There is a quote, I don't remember from where, that human beings are rationalizing rather than rational. The root of all arguments don't boil down to logic but to a fight over which monkeys deserve the best position at the watering hole. We might as well not even have debates. Might as well settle our differences with clubs and fists. Historically that's what it seems to always come down to whenever s**t really hits the fan. :roll:



Jacoby
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22 Nov 2012, 1:55 pm

marshall wrote:
I guess this thread just serves to prove that intelligent debate is impossible. All I see are both sides banging their heads against the wall over irreconcilable ethical disagreements. There is a quote, I don't remember from where, that human beings are rationalizing rather than rational. The root of all arguments don't boil down to logic but to a fight over which monkeys deserve the best position at the watering hole. We might as well not even have debates. Might as well settle our differences with clubs and fists. Historically that's what it seems to always come down to whenever sh** really hits the fan. :roll:


To have an intelligent debate the 'other side' needs the intellectual honesty and capacity to debate the subject on hand. Otherwise there isn't much left to do besides point and call them stupid.



GGPViper
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22 Nov 2012, 3:29 pm

blackelk wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
blackelk wrote:
The problem is that economics is a pseudoscience that is treated like a real science. It is closer to an ideology.

Right, because I'm sure you've spent a lot of time researching it.

Economics is a social science. It's not an ideology, and economists of different ideologies frequently can have meaningful discussions and use similar frameworks for solving some of the same problems.

The Taleb quote is pretty useless for your point, as you're somehow operating on the assumption that most of economics is really macroeconomic predictions, when it really isn't. Because it isn't, referring to failed economic predictions does nothing to discredit the field, especially given that macroeconomics used for predictions is pretty different than the rest of the body of knowledge. So, the meat and bones of economics is really microeconomics, and microeconomics actually has a lot of very good predictive theories.

Also, your comment on Marxism is pretty deeply questionable because of how Marxism has failed in the theory of value, but also generally failed to provide a strong research program. People are Marxists out of ideology, but people are capitalists out of pragmatism given their background knowledge. I mean, we can go into a huge dissection on how all of this stuff works and interrelates, but really, you're just using bare assertions and pretending that economics is a pomo fest rather than a discipline that's actually growing and trying to do what it can.


Can you prove anything you just said scientifically, or are you just telling just so stories that fit your agenda? This is a philosophical argument, nothing more.


Any economic paper which has an empirically testable prediction and actually tests it would demonstrate the scientific content of economics. A simple Google search would probably yield thousands of examples.

blackelk wrote:
What has economics actually given us? How has the field made our lives better?


Wealth.

Someone has to pay the 100-180 million dollar bills for those proton beam treatment facilities saving the lives of cancer patients.

Oh, and GDP rank and HDI rank is highly correlated across countries. Last time I checked, the OLS correlation was > 0.9.



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22 Nov 2012, 4:57 pm

marshall wrote:
I guess this thread just serves to prove that intelligent debate is impossible. All I see are both sides banging their heads against the wall over irreconcilable ethical disagreements. There is a quote, I don't remember from where, that human beings are rationalizing rather than rational. The root of all arguments don't boil down to logic but to a fight over which monkeys deserve the best position at the watering hole. We might as well not even have debates. Might as well settle our differences with clubs and fists. Historically that's what it seems to always come down to whenever sh** really hits the fan. :roll:


By posting this you're just becoming another member in the clash of the monkeys. There's nothing wrong with a little passion. It's when the ad hominem's and undue condescension come out that the true monkeys wiggle out of the woodwork.