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Filipendula
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13 Dec 2012, 1:57 pm

MrXxx wrote:
"Autistic-like" thinking doesn't necessarily mean you have autism. It just means you have a self-centric view of things. Not the same thing as "selfish" or "self-centered." Self-centric (in the strictest sense) simply means you see things from your own perspective, not anyone else's.


I don't know if this is what was meant by "autistic thinking" in the OP's context or if it's the main definition generally. However, I really like it! You've managed to make something I was finding intangible considerably more tangible in one respect at least. It's given me another way to perceive the whole autistic thinking concept. As far as your definition is concerned, it definitely applies to me!

I'm not so sure about other definitions though - I must find an example I came across the other day and post it. Back soon hopefully!


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13 Dec 2012, 2:01 pm

Here it is! I've seen the following given as an example of "autistic thinking":

Quote:
Charles Hart, the author of "Without Reason", a book about his autistic son and brother, sums up his son's thinking in one sentence: "Ted's thought processes aren't logical, they're associational." This explains'~ Ted's statement "I'm not afraid of planes. That's why they fly so high." In his mind, planes fly high because he is not afraid of them; he combines two pieces of information, that planes fly high and that he is not afraid of heights.


Seems very different to some of the other definitions provided and I can't get along with this at all really. For me, logic trumps all and this statement seems very illogical.


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13 Dec 2012, 2:17 pm

Filipendula wrote:
Here it is! I've seen the following given as an example of "autistic thinking":

Quote:
Charles Hart, the author of "Without Reason", a book about his autistic son and brother, sums up his son's thinking in one sentence: "Ted's thought processes aren't logical, they're associational." This explains'~ Ted's statement "I'm not afraid of planes. That's why they fly so high." In his mind, planes fly high because he is not afraid of them; he combines two pieces of information, that planes fly high and that he is not afraid of heights.


Seems very different to some of the other definitions provided and I can't get along with this at all really. For me, logic trumps all and this statement seems very illogical.


Good golly no! That isn't autistic thinking at all. That's a problem with language, not thought. Something's getting mixed up there between the thought and the translation into speech. I had a cousin that did exactly the same thing. She used to use "that's why" in place of "because." Looks to me like Ted was doing the exact same thing in reverse.

"I'm not afraid of planes. Because they fly so high." And now it makes perfect sense. :wink:


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13 Dec 2012, 4:49 pm

MrXxx wrote:
Filipendula wrote:
Here it is! I've seen the following given as an example of "autistic thinking":

Quote:
Charles Hart, the author of "Without Reason", a book about his autistic son and brother, sums up his son's thinking in one sentence: "Ted's thought processes aren't logical, they're associational." This explains'~ Ted's statement "I'm not afraid of planes. That's why they fly so high." In his mind, planes fly high because he is not afraid of them; he combines two pieces of information, that planes fly high and that he is not afraid of heights.


Seems very different to some of the other definitions provided and I can't get along with this at all really. For me, logic trumps all and this statement seems very illogical.


Good golly no! That isn't autistic thinking at all. That's a problem with language, not thought. Something's getting mixed up there between the thought and the translation into speech. I had a cousin that did exactly the same thing. She used to use "that's why" in place of "because." Looks to me like Ted was doing the exact same thing in reverse.

"I'm not afraid of planes. Because they fly so high." And now it makes perfect sense. :wink:


Really? Your explanation makes a lot a lot of sense, but this excerpt is from an article by Temple Grandin (http://www.grandin.com/inc/visual.thinking.html) and you'd think she'd spot something like that if it really isn't a good example of autistic thought. I'd have thought she'd only include it if in some way she agreed with it. I've seen the same example quoted from her article in other places too, you're the first I've heard to refute it. I'm confused now.


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13 Dec 2012, 5:02 pm

Filipendula wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Filipendula wrote:
Here it is! I've seen the following given as an example of "autistic thinking":

Quote:
Charles Hart, the author of "Without Reason", a book about his autistic son and brother, sums up his son's thinking in one sentence: "Ted's thought processes aren't logical, they're associational." This explains'~ Ted's statement "I'm not afraid of planes. That's why they fly so high." In his mind, planes fly high because he is not afraid of them; he combines two pieces of information, that planes fly high and that he is not afraid of heights.


Seems very different to some of the other definitions provided and I can't get along with this at all really. For me, logic trumps all and this statement seems very illogical.


Good golly no! That isn't autistic thinking at all. That's a problem with language, not thought. Something's getting mixed up there between the thought and the translation into speech. I had a cousin that did exactly the same thing. She used to use "that's why" in place of "because." Looks to me like Ted was doing the exact same thing in reverse.

"I'm not afraid of planes. Because they fly so high." And now it makes perfect sense. :wink:


Really? Your explanation makes a lot a lot of sense, but this excerpt is from an article by Temple Grandin (http://www.grandin.com/inc/visual.thinking.html) and you'd think she'd spot something like that if it really isn't a good example of autistic thought. I'd have thought she'd only include it if in some way she agreed with it. I've seen the same example quoted from her article in other places too, you're the first I've heard to refute it. I'm confused now.


You know? I thought about that after I posted it (rather in haste), and second guessed it, but I got distracted for a bit and forgot about it, so I'm glad you responded and reminded me.

You're right. I actually could be autistic thinking, and would only be what I thought it could be if there were a pattern of mixing the two concepts up (that's why and because). To be honest, my cousin is the only person I've ever known to do that consistently for a long time, but one of my own kids did it for a while too, and reversed other conceptual terms and phrases too.

What I'm not sure of is whether to think of the "switcheroos" as an autistic trait that comes from mixed up processing or if it actually is from autistic thinking (not quite the same thing to my thinking, but then I am autistic so... :roll: ).

Guess I'm confused now too. :?


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13 Dec 2012, 7:30 pm

MrXxx wrote:
"I'm not afraid of planes. Because they fly so high." And now it makes perfect sense. :wink:


At first I couldn't figure out how this made sense because most people are more afraid of things that are high. Then I realized that the quote doesn't refer being on the plane.



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13 Dec 2012, 7:37 pm

starkid wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
"I'm not afraid of planes. Because they fly so high." And now it makes perfect sense. :wink:


At first I couldn't figure out how this made sense because most people are more afraid of things that are high. Then I realized that the quote doesn't refer being on the plane.


Or it could be someone who happens to really love flying and they find it dispels other fears they have when they're stuck on the ground. Most =/= All. Many people love the sense of freedom that goes with flying, sadly I'm not one of them. :(


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13 Dec 2012, 7:49 pm

MrXxx wrote:
Filipendula wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Filipendula wrote:
Here it is! I've seen the following given as an example of "autistic thinking":

Quote:
Charles Hart, the author of "Without Reason", a book about his autistic son and brother, sums up his son's thinking in one sentence: "Ted's thought processes aren't logical, they're associational." This explains'~ Ted's statement "I'm not afraid of planes. That's why they fly so high." In his mind, planes fly high because he is not afraid of them; he combines two pieces of information, that planes fly high and that he is not afraid of heights.


Seems very different to some of the other definitions provided and I can't get along with this at all really. For me, logic trumps all and this statement seems very illogical.


Good golly no! That isn't autistic thinking at all. That's a problem with language, not thought. Something's getting mixed up there between the thought and the translation into speech. I had a cousin that did exactly the same thing. She used to use "that's why" in place of "because." Looks to me like Ted was doing the exact same thing in reverse.

"I'm not afraid of planes. Because they fly so high." And now it makes perfect sense. :wink:


Really? Your explanation makes a lot a lot of sense, but this excerpt is from an article by Temple Grandin (http://www.grandin.com/inc/visual.thinking.html) and you'd think she'd spot something like that if it really isn't a good example of autistic thought. I'd have thought she'd only include it if in some way she agreed with it. I've seen the same example quoted from her article in other places too, you're the first I've heard to refute it. I'm confused now.


You know? I thought about that after I posted it (rather in haste), and second guessed it, but I got distracted for a bit and forgot about it, so I'm glad you responded and reminded me.

You're right. I actually could be autistic thinking, and would only be what I thought it could be if there were a pattern of mixing the two concepts up (that's why and because). To be honest, my cousin is the only person I've ever known to do that consistently for a long time, but one of my own kids did it for a while too, and reversed other conceptual terms and phrases too.

What I'm not sure of is whether to think of the "switcheroos" as an autistic trait that comes from mixed up processing or if it actually is from autistic thinking (not quite the same thing to my thinking, but then I am autistic so... :roll: ).

Guess I'm confused now too. :?


I think it's both.

I'm a highly associative thinker, but I primarily think in words, not pictures. I'm going to venture a guess that the problem with some of these folks is both a language issue and possibly a "mix up" issue, especially if the person in question is highly visual-spatial.

Associative "logic" difficult to explain. I would imagine that someone who isn't inclined towards language might have an even harder time trying to convey what they actually mean in such a way that a baseline human could understand it.


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13 Dec 2012, 11:09 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
I'm a highly associative thinker, but I primarily think in words, not pictures. I'm going to venture a guess that the problem with some of these folks is both a language issue and possibly a "mix up" issue, especially if the person in question is highly visual-spatial.

Associative "logic" difficult to explain. I would imagine that someone who isn't inclined towards language might have an even harder time trying to convey what they actually mean in such a way that a baseline human could understand it.


I described myself in a thread here a couple of years ago as a highly associative thinker. In that instance, I meant that it is hard for me to connect a lot of information without having associations to link it together. So I can know several similar things but not be able to connect them until I learn or read or hear something that sparks that association. In that thread, I used it to possibly explain how I had to relearn how to drive every time I tried a different vehicle, and may not even remember while learning that I had learned before.

But I do have a lot of effective associations that essentially allow me to "image search" my own brain in a manner similar to what Temple Grandin describes (not identical, but I primarily think visually and do not think in words). How these associations are established can lead to the above as well as to easy cross referencing, but it's also based on how I categorize.

A recent example was when my therapist asked me if there's anything I can do that's relaxing. I don't have a mental category for "relaxing things" so I could not answer that question correctly. However, when she shifted to "Does music help you relax?" and I could run down the list of my favorite songs and determine that yes, music does help me relax. But that's not primary association that I ever made, so I would never have been able to say so without prompting.

I am not sure if this is what you mean or if I am using the word incorrectly, however.



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14 Dec 2012, 4:48 am

starkid wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
"I'm not afraid of planes. Because they fly so high." And now it makes perfect sense. :wink:


At first I couldn't figure out how this made sense because most people are more afraid of things that are high. Then I realized that the quote doesn't refer being on the plane.


I'm utterly confused. Is he saying that he's not afraid of the planes because they are so high and therefore not near enough to be a threat to him? If so I can totally see the sense in that, although of course it doesn't account for the fact that it could crash on your head, which I would have thought an analytical brain would know. Perhaps they are talking about low functioning autism so their analytical level might be lower.


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14 Dec 2012, 6:05 am

whirlingmind wrote:
starkid wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
"I'm not afraid of planes. Because they fly so high." And now it makes perfect sense. :wink:


At first I couldn't figure out how this made sense because most people are more afraid of things that are high. Then I realized that the quote doesn't refer being on the plane.


I'm utterly confused. Is he saying that he's not afraid of the planes because they are so high and therefore not near enough to be a threat to him? If so I can totally see the sense in that, although of course it doesn't account for the fact that it could crash on your head, which I would have thought an analytical brain would know. Perhaps they are talking about low functioning autism so their analytical level might be lower.


I'm not sure. It's the possibility that there could be multiple reasons he's saying they way he is that I find to be an issue. To me it may or may not be autistic thinking, but then, it also depends on what you meant by autistic thinking.

Semantics and perspective play a huge role in making this not as simple as it might look at first glance.


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15 Dec 2012, 7:16 am

Verdandi wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
I'm a highly associative thinker, but I primarily think in words, not pictures. I'm going to venture a guess that the problem with some of these folks is both a language issue and possibly a "mix up" issue, especially if the person in question is highly visual-spatial.

Associative "logic" difficult to explain. I would imagine that someone who isn't inclined towards language might have an even harder time trying to convey what they actually mean in such a way that a baseline human could understand it.


I described myself in a thread here a couple of years ago as a highly associative thinker. In that instance, I meant that it is hard for me to connect a lot of information without having associations to link it together. So I can know several similar things but not be able to connect them until I learn or read or hear something that sparks that association. In that thread, I used it to possibly explain how I had to relearn how to drive every time I tried a different vehicle, and may not even remember while learning that I had learned before.

But I do have a lot of effective associations that essentially allow me to "image search" my own brain in a manner similar to what Temple Grandin describes (not identical, but I primarily think visually and do not think in words). How these associations are established can lead to the above as well as to easy cross referencing, but it's also based on how I categorize.

A recent example was when my therapist asked me if there's anything I can do that's relaxing. I don't have a mental category for "relaxing things" so I could not answer that question correctly. However, when she shifted to "Does music help you relax?" and I could run down the list of my favorite songs and determine that yes, music does help me relax. But that's not primary association that I ever made, so I would never have been able to say so without prompting.

I am not sure if this is what you mean or if I am using the word incorrectly, however.


I had a similar problem a few months ago at work during a group training session. They asked me what I did to "relieve stress and relax." I couldn't answer the question because 1.) not everything I do to relieve stress is necessarily "relaxing, and 2.) the idea of "relaxing" was too broad for me to get my head around in order to give a succinct response. I viewed it as a manifestation of my issues with "general" and "specific" concepts, but I suppose it could be related to being highly associative.

A concrete example of me using "associative reasoning" would be if, during a "word association" game, I was asked to state what I thought of when I heard the word "microwave." I might answer "leprechaun." It goes like this: the most interesting thing about microwaves is that you can make food explode in them. That makes me think of potatoes. When I think of potatoes, I think of the Irish "potatoes famine." Thoughts of Ireland immediately lead into "leprechaun."

I could keep going like that for a long time, but, for the sake of brevity, I would just cut it short and stop at "leprechaun." The difference between me and baseline humans is that the aforementioned thought process takes me a matter of seconds, and it is also the primary means with which I navigate the world. I understand things only in the context of other things.

......if that makes sense. 8)


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15 Dec 2012, 8:11 am

Quote:
Your explanation makes a lot a lot of sense, but this excerpt is from an article by Temple Grandin (http://www.grandin.com/inc/visual.thinking.html) and you'd think she'd spot something like that if it really isn't a good example of autistic thought.


Not really.

Although Temple Grandin has done a good job of describing one kind of autistic thought style, namely the way she herself thinks, from what I've seen of her she doesn't seem to realize the kind of variety in autism. She suggests all autistics are picture thinkers like her, which is clearly not true. People with NVLD are often autistic as well, and many have significant difficulty visualizing, and plus there are some people who have nonverbal, nonvisual thought patterns. (And my Mom thinks in written text. Is that picture thinking?)



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15 Dec 2012, 8:57 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
I had a similar problem a few months ago at work during a group training session. They asked me what I did to "relieve stress and relax." I couldn't answer the question because 1.) not everything I do to relieve stress is necessarily "relaxing, and 2.) the idea of "relaxing" was too broad for me to get my head around in order to give a succinct response. I viewed it as a manifestation of my issues with "general" and "specific" concepts, but I suppose it could be related to being highly associative.

A concrete example of me using "associative reasoning" would be if, during a "word association" game, I was asked to state what I thought of when I heard the word "microwave." I might answer "leprechaun." It goes like this: the most interesting thing about microwaves is that you can make food explode in them. That makes me think of potatoes. When I think of potatoes, I think of the Irish "potatoes famine." Thoughts of Ireland immediately lead into "leprechaun."

I could keep going like that for a long time, but, for the sake of brevity, I would just cut it short and stop at "leprechaun." The difference between me and baseline humans is that the aforementioned thought process takes me a matter of seconds, and it is also the primary means with which I navigate the world. I understand things only in the context of other things.

......if that makes sense. 8)


This is the other side of it. A lot of topics for me are linked somewhat haphazardly like this, so it's easy to come at things from an unusual direction than it is to deal with generalizations. People would often refer to my multiple-leap digressions as "random" even though I had a solid chain of thought connecting what I said to what I had just heard.



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15 Dec 2012, 10:48 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
A concrete example of me using "associative reasoning" would be if, during a "word association" game, I was asked to state what I thought of when I heard the word "microwave." I might answer "leprechaun." It goes like this: the most interesting thing about microwaves is that you can make food explode in them. That makes me think of potatoes. When I think of potatoes, I think of the Irish "potatoes famine." Thoughts of Ireland immediately lead into "leprechaun."


Is this the standard kind of word association game in which you're told a word and asked to say the very next immediate thing that comes to mind as a result? If so, then I still don't understand how you came out with 'leprechaun'.

The train of thought you describe goes: microwave > exploding food > potatoes > Irish potato famine > Ireland > leprechaun so I would have said that the correct response to that game would have been 'exploding food'. The rest of the train of thought is perfectly valid too of course, but it's not a direct association according to the rules of the game (unless they asked "What's the 5th thing you think of when I say 'microwave'?").

It also sounds like a perfectly normal train of thought to me - the kind I might go on too, and I wouldn't consider it autistic in any way. Surely everyone is subject to a whole range of fragmentary and convoluted associations based on their unique set of life experiences?


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Last edited by Filipendula on 15 Dec 2012, 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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15 Dec 2012, 10:52 am

Ettina wrote:
Quote:
Your explanation makes a lot a lot of sense, but this excerpt is from an article by Temple Grandin (http://www.grandin.com/inc/visual.thinking.html) and you'd think she'd spot something like that if it really isn't a good example of autistic thought.


Not really.

Although Temple Grandin has done a good job of describing one kind of autistic thought style, namely the way she herself thinks, from what I've seen of her she doesn't seem to realize the kind of variety in autism. She suggests all autistics are picture thinkers like her, which is clearly not true. People with NVLD are often autistic as well, and many have significant difficulty visualizing, and plus there are some people who have nonverbal, nonvisual thought patterns. (And my Mom thinks in written text. Is that picture thinking?)


Actually yes, that's true. I've noticed she does speak in very general concrete terms and doesn't often make disclaimers to account for variation. All the same, the plane things sounds so odd to me. It's hard to imagine that Grandin could understand or even agree with the logic of that one and it's intriguing if she does. After all, no one here seems to have been able to explain it all that well yet.


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