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Is suicide a sin?
Yep 14%  14%  [ 6 ]
Nope 67%  67%  [ 28 ]
Just display the results 19%  19%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 42

TallyMan
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13 Jan 2013, 3:54 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I can understand and I know it must have been difficult. My grandfather was terminally ill and my mother experienced a similar situation although she has never talked of him wanting to end his life. It is tremendously painful for everyone involved and you have my sympathies.

We are coming from two entirely different perspectives. I was thinking from my own experience with someone suffering depression alone and committed suicide in a way that seems agonizing to me. This is what I meant as a "sin against nature." I cannot think of another way to describe it.

Since what you and your family experienced is in itself a sin against nature, since illness can be viewed that way, I cannot apply that term to your mother wishing the pain would end. I hope what I am trying to say is clear.


I understand what you are saying. I think those who have experienced chronic pain themselves or lived with a loved one watching them die a horrible slow death can appreciate that suicide isn't a black and white issue; it is a whole muddy grey mess.

To add to the mud I suffer from something called trigeminal neuralgia. This is classed as one of the most painful conditions a person can have and is actually nicknamed "the suicide disease" simply because so many people take their own lives when the ongoing pain become unbearable. It manifests in slightly different forms and thankfully mine has largely been in remission for the last year or so. It is caused by a short circuit of the trigeminal nerve in the jaw which tells the brain that the jaw in undergoing severe trauma. In my case the attacks provoke the pain identical to having my jaw bone smashed with a large hammer / chopped in two with giant bolt cutters. The pathology is bizarre, I feel no pain most of the time then suddenly out of nowhere I experience my jaw being smashed and grab my jaw and cry out in agony. Then after twenty seconds or so the pain suddenly disappears leaving no trace. The attacks are clustered, several can occur within an hour then a few hours rest then another bout of attacks. At the worst I experience having my jaw bone smashed around 50 times a day - it leaves me absolutely drained, physically and emotionally. It is like the torturers perfect instrument - I can be tortured again and again with the same thing but I don't die. As people with trigeminal neuralgia get older the frequency of the attacks can increase to the point they are unable to function in society and they have to live with a morphine pump attached to them all the time. The disease isn't terminal of itself, but living with it as it progresses becomes virtually impossible for many.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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13 Jan 2013, 4:00 pm

TallyMan wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I can understand and I know it must have been difficult. My grandfather was terminally ill and my mother experienced a similar situation although she has never talked of him wanting to end his life. It is tremendously painful for everyone involved and you have my sympathies.

We are coming from two entirely different perspectives. I was thinking from my own experience with someone suffering depression alone and committed suicide in a way that seems agonizing to me. This is what I meant as a "sin against nature." I cannot think of another way to describe it.

Since what you and your family experienced is in itself a sin against nature, since illness can be viewed that way, I cannot apply that term to your mother wishing the pain would end. I hope what I am trying to say is clear.


I understand what you are saying. I think those who have experienced chronic pain themselves or lived with a loved one watching them die a horrible slow death can appreciate that suicide isn't a black and white issue; it is a whole muddy grey mess.

To add to the mud I suffer from something called trigeminal neuralgia. This is classed as one of the most painful conditions a person can have and is actually nicknamed "the suicide disease" simply because so many people take their own lives when the ongoing pain become unbearable. It manifests in slightly different forms and thankfully mine has largely been in remission for the last year or so. It is caused by a short circuit of the trigeminal nerve in the jaw which tells the brain that the jaw in undergoing severe trauma. In my case the attacks provoke the pain identical to having my jaw bone smashed with a large hammer / chopped in two with giant bolt cutters. The pathology is bizarre, I feel no pain most of the time then suddenly out of nowhere I experience my jaw being smashed and grab my jaw and cry out in agony. Then after twenty seconds or so the pain suddenly disappears leaving no trace. The attacks are clustered, several can occur within an hour then a few hours rest then another bout of attacks. At the worst I experience having my jaw bone smashed around 50 times a day - it leaves me absolutely drained, physically and emotionally. It is like the torturers perfect instrument - I can be tortured again and again with the same thing but I don't die. As people with trigeminal neuralgia get older the frequency of the attacks can increase to the point they are unable to function in society and they have to live with a morphine pump attached to them all the time. The disease isn't terminal of itself, but living with it as it progresses becomes virtually impossible for many.

Since it's in remission, the symptoms have subsided? I hope it stays in remission if that's the case! I can't begin to imagine what it must be like. I hope everything will be alright.



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13 Jan 2013, 4:13 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I can understand and I know it must have been difficult. My grandfather was terminally ill and my mother experienced a similar situation although she has never talked of him wanting to end his life. It is tremendously painful for everyone involved and you have my sympathies.

We are coming from two entirely different perspectives. I was thinking from my own experience with someone suffering depression alone and committed suicide in a way that seems agonizing to me. This is what I meant as a "sin against nature." I cannot think of another way to describe it.

Since what you and your family experienced is in itself a sin against nature, since illness can be viewed that way, I cannot apply that term to your mother wishing the pain would end. I hope what I am trying to say is clear.


I understand what you are saying. I think those who have experienced chronic pain themselves or lived with a loved one watching them die a horrible slow death can appreciate that suicide isn't a black and white issue; it is a whole muddy grey mess.

To add to the mud I suffer from something called trigeminal neuralgia. This is classed as one of the most painful conditions a person can have and is actually nicknamed "the suicide disease" simply because so many people take their own lives when the ongoing pain become unbearable. It manifests in slightly different forms and thankfully mine has largely been in remission for the last year or so. It is caused by a short circuit of the trigeminal nerve in the jaw which tells the brain that the jaw in undergoing severe trauma. In my case the attacks provoke the pain identical to having my jaw bone smashed with a large hammer / chopped in two with giant bolt cutters. The pathology is bizarre, I feel no pain most of the time then suddenly out of nowhere I experience my jaw being smashed and grab my jaw and cry out in agony. Then after twenty seconds or so the pain suddenly disappears leaving no trace. The attacks are clustered, several can occur within an hour then a few hours rest then another bout of attacks. At the worst I experience having my jaw bone smashed around 50 times a day - it leaves me absolutely drained, physically and emotionally. It is like the torturers perfect instrument - I can be tortured again and again with the same thing but I don't die. As people with trigeminal neuralgia get older the frequency of the attacks can increase to the point they are unable to function in society and they have to live with a morphine pump attached to them all the time. The disease isn't terminal of itself, but living with it as it progresses becomes virtually impossible for many.

Since it's in remission, the symptoms have subsided? I hope it stays in remission if that's the case! I can't begin to imagine what it must be like. I hope everything will be alright.


Same here, I hope it stays in remision! I would say, Tallyman, that you have a more insightful perspective on this topic than most people can even imagine.


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13 Jan 2013, 4:16 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Since it's in remission, the symptoms have subsided? I hope it stays in remission if that's the case! I can't begin to imagine what it must be like. I hope everything will be alright.


I had one brief attack yesterday, the first for a long time. It is entirely unpredictable. However, with it being in remission I'm hoping it stays that way. Unfortunately the general prognosis with this disease is that it gets worse with age. I can't begin to image what it must be like to experience this level of pain a thousand times a day. But anyway, the point I was making is that suicide isn't a clear cut issue, there is no black and white about it.

If I could make a generalisation it would be that suicide is a valid option if someone's quality of life has deteriorated to such a point that they simply do not want to live any more and there is no possibility that their quality of life can ever improve again. If this desire to suicide is as a result of depression then they cannot say that; because depression clouds the mind to ways to improve one's life and with suitable medical care, medication, therapy, changes to life style etc the depressed person may regain a good quality of life again. However, with physical illnesses this may not always be the case and if someone has to spend the rest of their life in chronic pain then I regard suicide as perfectly valid and acceptable. Even the family members of said person cannot hold it against them in such circumstances - to do so would be selfish of them. Sometimes you have just got to let someone go, and allow them to end their suffering.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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13 Jan 2013, 4:31 pm

TallyMan wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Since it's in remission, the symptoms have subsided? I hope it stays in remission if that's the case! I can't begin to imagine what it must be like. I hope everything will be alright.


I had one brief attack yesterday, the first for a long time. It is entirely unpredictable. However, with it being in remission I'm hoping it stays that way. Unfortunately the general prognosis with this disease is that it gets worse with age. I can't begin to image what it must be like to experience this level of pain a thousand times a day. But anyway, the point I was making is that suicide isn't a clear cut issue, there is no black and white about it.

If I could make a generalisation it would be that suicide is a valid option if someone's quality of life has deteriorated to such a point that they simply do not want to live any more and there is no possibility that their quality of life can ever improve again. If this desire to suicide is as a result of depression then they cannot say that; because depression clouds the mind to ways to improve one's life and with suitable medical care, medication, therapy, changes to life style etc the depressed person may regain a good quality of life again. However, with physical illnesses this may not always be the case and if someone has to spend the rest of their life in chronic pain then I regard suicide as perfectly valid and acceptable. Even the family members of said person cannot hold it against them in such circumstances - to do so would be selfish of them. Sometimes you have just got to let someone go, and allow them to end their suffering.

Tallyman, I am an optimist and I hope medicine will advance to the point the pain can be taken away so such people can live their remaining days peacefully and will not feel the need to commit suicide. It is still done as the last resort and because they feel it is the only alternative and I don't like that part.



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13 Jan 2013, 4:38 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Tallyman, I am an optimist and I hope medicine will advance to the point the pain can be taken away so such people can live their remaining days peacefully and will not feel the need to commit suicide. It is still done as the last resort and because they feel it is the only alternative and I don't like that part.


You'll get no arguments from me there! :)


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13 Jan 2013, 6:37 pm

Sorry TallyMan,I wish that wasn't happening to you or anyone else.


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13 Jan 2013, 6:58 pm

Does God hate suicides?



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13 Jan 2013, 8:55 pm

BlueAbyss wrote:

What's your point?

I see those paragraphs as scare tactics. Typical of organized religion. I don't count on the fact that there's no existence beyond the grave. I do hope that if it exists it will be beyond the judgmental BS of this world, and that if there is a loving god, that love includes those who take their own lives - a truly unconditional love would, wouldn't it? If god is less than that, as judgmental as most people I've met, then I have no respect for that god, and if I burn in hell so be it. I rebel against such a god. I will rebel forever against a judgmental, unforgiving, unloving god. To me that's not a god but a devil. If you want to worship such a god, go ahead. I don't.

I have spiritual beliefs, but not such conditional, cruel ones intended most likely to keep someone going back to and tithing their church out of fear.


I'm not trying to scare anyone or anything.
I'm seriously not. I'm offering my position, if that somehow scares you, that something you must work with.


Why is that when TallyMan makes the claim

TallyMan wrote:
My argument is that if someone is in agonising pain and terminally ill with only weeks or moths left to live with no quality of life, they are perfectly justified in taking their own life rather than perpetuating it.]


With only two weeks left to live, might as well ride the life out. Go out strong.
That's like running to the end of a race and quitting before the finish line.


Everyone nods in approval and doesn't challenge it yet when I wrote the paragraph, I all of sudden I become a judgmental bastard?
Do you see the disconnect and the double-standard?

Jake


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13 Jan 2013, 9:11 pm

Let me break it down for you.

When a person claims that suicide will end a person’s suffering, they are making a religious claim about the nature of life after death. This cannot be avoided. They are counting on the fact that there is no conscious existence beyond the grave, or that whatever greets us will be pleasant, an improvement on the misery of life on this earth.

So, basically, if your an Atheist, after you finnaly die and be transported to oblivion, it will be better than the judgmental world you are in now.


If they are wrong, though, and there is a hell awaiting those who deserve it, then for some euthanasia will not end misery, but compound it. The person suffering here on earth is not transported to a place of peace and rest, but rather to an infinitely greater suffering in hell. It is theoretically possible, then, that “mercy killing” could actually be an act of cruelty.

So, what he is trying to say is; If Atheism is in-correct and there is a heaven/hell waiting for those who die, Euthanasia will not ease the pain but rather prolong it.

It seems impossible to avoid the intrusion of religious views on either side of this issue. This is not a matter of one party forcing his religious view on another. It’s a matter of two religious views competing with each other. More is at stake here than some people realize

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13 Jan 2013, 10:35 pm

NAKnight wrote:
If they are wrong, though, and there is a hell awaiting those who deserve it, then for some euthanasia will not end misery, but compound it. The person suffering here on earth is not transported to a place of peace and rest, but rather to an infinitely greater suffering in hell. It is theoretically possible, then, that “mercy killing” could actually be an act of cruelty.

So, what he is trying to say is; If Atheism is in-correct and there is a heaven/hell waiting for those who die, Euthanasia will not ease the pain but rather prolong it.

It is just a standard Pascal's wager.

The correct approach to it is. There are tons of god theories. So most likely, IF there is a god, the real god is going to be angry at you regardless of what you do (Because you picked the wrong god).

If it happens to be the Christian god, he is going to be angry at you for just about anything. So we are all going to hell anyway. We might as well support euthanasia in the mean time.


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13 Jan 2013, 10:46 pm

Something you guys might find interesting. This is a reported Near Death Experience that was both Judeao-Christian and from a suicide. Not all suicides have the same result but this one had both elements. I'll have to see if I find anything else interesting along this line or whether other both suicide and Judao-Christian NDE's work the same or end up even completely different.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/suicide04.html



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13 Jan 2013, 11:43 pm

NDEs say more about the person having the NDE's subconsciousness than about anything really.

The tale sounds more like she dealing with her own regrets of committing suicide.


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13 Jan 2013, 11:58 pm

Nah, I agree that there's a heavy slush aspect of it - ie. certain attributes of the experience itself generally occur consistently but the spiritual/religious dimensions are all over the place.



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14 Jan 2013, 6:49 am

Quote:
Suicide is taking the easy way out of life.


I agree with this advantage you mention. The friend of my sister choosed to do suicide because of that. But maybe if there is an advantage in taking the hard way out of life, instead of the easy way, you can tell me? So we only knew that the alternative would be around 8 weeks complete agonizing pain even her tranquilizer couldnt stop any more. And nothing else.

Quote:
Also, it's giving up on yourself and others.
The amount of the tranquilizer and the morphium she would have needed to endure the last week, would have left her as an empty dummy, watching the ceiling in her bed, unable to even piss controlled. And even then she still would have pain. Not to mention such things like talking to herself or others or sharing or even having thoughts. I can only tell you my personal oppinion, but if she is lying in as hospital bed, having unbearable agony, unable to think or talk to me or lying 6 feet under the earth, having no more pain, unable to think or talk, wouldnt change anything for me. So from my opinion as "others" you are wrong and I never had the idea, that she had given up on us.

And talking about giving up about a person who fought years against cancer, who had several operations until the doctors were physically on the limit because of cancer on body parts that cant be removed, l find insulting.

As long as there was an option that she could fight for, she fought. Until there were no more options left to fight. So if you like kicking barefeet against steel walls, trying to make a breach, because you would think you would be giving up if you start to listen to your brain, that tries to tell you that you cant breach steel walls with your barefoot, its just stupid and not heroic. Life is no Hollywood film, where you can reach everything, as long as you just dont give up and never stop trying. In some situations the only thing you can do is accept reality. And that is, that if half of your intestines and your stomach already has been reduced in operations, and the remaining parts got cancer again, additional to your pancreas which is inoperable, it is over. Enjoy the time you have left, and when the pain gets so high that medications wont work anymore, even if its so high that you are only a brainless corpse lying in agony in your bed, then you should think about yourself and not about others. While she was dying in agony, I and every other person around her was able to do everything we wanted, so I think she should be the one who should be thought of, and not the healthy, happy, others that are able to live their life on, having fun, having dreams and so on.

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With only two weeks left to live, might as well ride the life out. Go out strong.
That's like running to the end of a race and quitting before the finish line.
There is nothing strong about pleaing others for death, while pissing in your pampers. Please watch less "Rocky". And as I already said, its reality and no racegame. There is no "finish line" to reach. There is no moment when the actor becomes hero because reaching a game or film goal. What you call a finish line is death. And death is not on the end of somethings static. Death happens when you die. Whenever you die. If "going to death" was something static in your mind with "death" as goal, then everything every person does to "shorten" the distance until "deathgoal" would be as bad as suicide. Smoking shortens that distance. McDonalds shortens that distance. Doing no sport shortens that distance. Driving in the car without using safety belts and all that other s**t. So all these people are shortening your funny "racedistance" willingly and active for fun and nobody cares about that or would have the idea to tell at the funeral how they dared to make their life so useless because of that or what as*holes they are against their family. But when shortening the funny "racedistance" because of real issues, not just for fun or eating s**t, then it should be forbidden and you are an as*hole? Yeah, for sure.

Quote:
The ramifications for a life wasted are tragic for both the "victim" and the "family"


No, if your not completely selfish on your own, forcing other people to endure endless pain because of you healthy happy person would be a bit happier if your friends are willing to take pain and agony on them, so that you poor little person are not disturbed when drinking tea, there is no ramification. It was absolutely tragic. But what we found tragic was that she had to die, and that there was nothing to be done anymore, nothing to help, absolutely nothing left. This is what made us sad.

And I found it insulting of you to tell, that her life would be wasted, just because she refused to lie 8 weeks longer as mindless painzombie in hospital. What she did in her life, she did. And it wont just disappear because of that 8 weeks. Everything she has done, everything that has effected someone, every laugh of her was there, happened and is not "wasted" just because of some missing useless suffering. There is no time machine, undoing all things she done, because she choosed suicide. Everything that happened, happened.

And if her family would have found that so tragic, i dont think that they supported her, what they did. So when my sisters friend knew, that there was nothing left she could do or fight against it, and that there would be only some weeks left in which the medication would be able to torn the pain down to an acceptable amount, she decided to leave hospital and have that remaining weeks at home with her family, including her daughter. So she became her medication with her, and as it is necessary the information from the doctors about how to use her medication, and which amount she should avoid normally. (So euthanasia is in public absolutely forbidden in Austria. But if an ill person wants to leave hospital, you have to give him the medication with him, and have to instruct him how to use it and how much you should avoid. So if the persons decide to die on their own, as long as you are able to act on your own and not already grounded to hospital, its ill persons own responsibility.) Her friends and family visited her to say goodbye because everyone knew, what it meant if an person close before death exits hospital to come home. All were happy to be able to say goodbye as long as she was still able to recognize people and talk on her own. One reason, she decided to do so, was BECAUSE of her daughter: So what do you think is better for 8 years old girl. Knowing that your mom will die, spending the last good days with her and the family at home, laughing and having fun, until one morning she was found in her bed. (By the grandmother who was informed, that this will happen when the medication wont be enough anymore.) Or visiting your mom in hospital, telling her goodbye and then see her die for two months in pain?

When she died, we did cry for her, because of her. But we were absolutely not sad, that she missed the following weeks of pain and agony. Why should we wish her to endure this without any use. Enduring 8 weeks of pain to live on. Sure. But enduring 8 weeks of pain, to endure 8 weeks of pain. I wouldnt wish that an enemy.



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14 Jan 2013, 12:22 pm

NAKnight wrote:
BlueAbyss wrote:

What's your point?

I see those paragraphs as scare tactics. Typical of organized religion. I don't count on the fact that there's no existence beyond the grave. I do hope that if it exists it will be beyond the judgmental BS of this world, and that if there is a loving god, that love includes those who take their own lives - a truly unconditional love would, wouldn't it? If god is less than that, as judgmental as most people I've met, then I have no respect for that god, and if I burn in hell so be it. I rebel against such a god. I will rebel forever against a judgmental, unforgiving, unloving god. To me that's not a god but a devil. If you want to worship such a god, go ahead. I don't.

I have spiritual beliefs, but not such conditional, cruel ones intended most likely to keep someone going back to and tithing their church out of fear.


I'm not trying to scare anyone or anything.
I'm seriously not. I'm offering my position, if that somehow scares you, that something you must work with.

It doesn't scare me at all. I didn't mean that you were trying to scare anyone, but that whoever wrote the paragraphs you quoted was repeating the scare tactics of organized religion. I did, however, wonder what your point was in posting them.

NAKnight wrote:
With only two weeks left to live, might as well ride the life out. Go out strong.
That's like running to the end of a race and quitting before the finish line.
What if the strong way is taking one's own life? I see our culture as one of clinging to life at all costs, that there's a morbid fear of death, which is part of the circle of life and shouldn't be feared. If someone wants to spare their family the pain of watching them die bit by bit I don't see that as weak. In my family, after seeing many family members die, we talk a lot about DNRs and making sure we have instructions in place so that our lives aren't prolonged unnecessarily and so that family members don't have to make difficult decisions for us - in order to spare the family as much pain and expense as possible. I see that as the responsible thing to do. I don't see end of life suicide as any weaker a decision.

Mind you, I don't feel the same way about all suicide. If someone needs help dealing with depression, they should seek help. I've known people who weren't dying who killed themselves, and I definitely wish they'd sought other solutions to their pain. Life is precious and to be lived. It's just that when one reaches the end and the quality of life is gone, I don't think there's any reason to hold oneself or one's family hostage to a prolonged process. Medicine has become almost too efficient at keeping us alive when it's really time to go.


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