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rdos
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08 Jun 2013, 11:07 am

beneficii wrote:
I don't think participation rates are good evidence of that. That instead goes back to issues like cultural differences, implicit racial biases, differences in diagnoses, etc., that can explain those differences.


Actually, it is. If you take 100,000 US citizens that frequent a large range of forums (most not about ASD), you would expect to get about 12,500 with an African background since that is the proportion in US census. If you instead get 2,500 you definitely know something is wrong. Especially when other disadvantaged groups like Native Americans, doesn't show this pattern, you know for sure something is wrong.

And if you want to include the level of neurodiversity, the few participants with African background score at a similar level as Caucasians, which means you can be sure you have not just selected those with the most traits, and that people of African descent are not just less likely to identify as neurodiverse, but instead have a group with similar levels of traits as other groups.

That leaves the conclusion that the reason for the lower participation rates is that fewer people (1/5) of African descent are likely to feel different. Because this is the primary driver in taking an Aspie-survey, participating on WP and in support groups.

beneficii wrote:
BTW, have you read the research that I presented?


No, because it is irrelevant. The Neanderthal theory is about neurodiversity, not ASD diagnosis.

beneficii wrote:
The fact remains that until we can find a way to take into account the issue of cultural differences and implicit racial biases in diagnosis and recognition (i.e. the person recognizing it in themselves), then we cannot come to those conclusions.


I'll have to point out that people's self-perceptions before talking Aspie Quiz are extremely accurate. And self-awareness is a requirement in order to get an accurate diagnoses as well, because the diagnostic process also mostly relies on this.

Besides, Aspie Quiz has no gender bias, no age bias, and probably no cultural bias either as it has excluded environment. This is the sort of tools we need to research neurodiversity, not tools that have gender bias, cultural bias and changing prevalence over time.



rdos
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08 Jun 2013, 11:27 am

beneficii wrote:
As I understand, there is no good evidence for differences in prevalence rates among racial or ethnic groups that cannot be explained by under- or overdiagnosis in those groups. Black and Hispanic children are less likely to receive autism spectrum diagnoses and are more likely to be considered maladjusted children instead, due to cultural differences and implicit racial biases.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19106426

http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... minorities

Because of that, I think that arguing that the Neanderthal theory of autism is correct by comparing the prevalence of Neanderthal genes and diagnosis rates of autism in different ethnic groups is mistaken.


Several problems with that study.

1. They are assessing LFA (they claim about half of them are mentally disabled). That is as far from neurodiversity we can get, and thus has no relevance for neurodiversity at all

2. They have an American Indian group, but won't present the result from it (which I suspect will conflict with their conclusions)

3. The fact that children with African background are identified later could mean they have less severe traits (and thus disagrees with their conclusion):



beneficii
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08 Jun 2013, 11:42 am

rdos wrote:
And self-awareness is a requirement in order to get an accurate diagnoses as well, because the diagnostic process also mostly relies on this.


Really? So the kid who is diagnosed at 3 is self-aware of being different? When I was diagnosed with PDD-NOS, an ASD, at age 6, I had no farkin' clue. I thought I was just ADHD. (Though I was aware of being diagnosed with Asperger's at age 13.)

As for the rest of your post, I have trouble seeing how it's even relevant to what I'm talking about. I don't know what you mean by ASD verses neurodiversity. As I understand, neurotypical simply means not ASD. Neurodiversity simply means inclusion regardless of ASD status. Non-verbal autistic people fit into neurodiversity and under the ASD label. They are just a much a part of our group as we are. I don't see your basis for splitting apart ASD people.



naturalplastic
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08 Jun 2013, 11:43 am

rdos wrote:
We are not talking about the same things / prevalences. It is neurodiversity (BAP) prevalence that is important, not severely disabling ASD (as in the presented "evidences"). The Neanderthal theory in fact predicts that mixes between neurotypical and neurodiversity traits increases risk for disability by gene incompabilities, which is exactly what we see in relation to African descent and autism.

In addition to that, using ASD diagnoses, which is known to rise and be related to culture, is not a useful method. We want to see BAP prevalence, not prevalence of a problem-based selection from the BAP population.


Pure doubletalk

"its not autism that matters, its BAP that matters" is tantamount to saying its not autism that matters it autism that matters.


And saying that its the mix of genes not the pure genes that cause the problems is like saying "King Arthur was probably a space alien"- ie explaining one proven thing (neanderthal origins of autism) with another unproven hypothesis (that its the pairing of genes and not the pure genes that cause problems).



beneficii
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08 Jun 2013, 11:45 am

rdos wrote:
They are assessing LFA (they claim about half of them are mentally disabled). That is as far from neurodiversity we can get, and thus has no relevance for neurodiversity at all


Huh?



rdos
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08 Jun 2013, 12:02 pm

beneficii wrote:
rdos wrote:
And self-awareness is a requirement in order to get an accurate diagnoses as well, because the diagnostic process also mostly relies on this.


Really? So the kid who is diagnosed at 3 is self-aware of being different? When I was diagnosed with PDD-NOS, an ASD, at age 6, I had no farkin' clue. I thought I was just ADHD. (Though I was aware of being diagnosed with Asperger's at age 13.)


I only deal with adults. This is the context the claim should be seen in.

beneficii wrote:
As for the rest of your post, I have trouble seeing how it's even relevant to what I'm talking about. I don't know what you mean by ASD verses neurodiversity. As I understand, neurotypical simply means not ASD. Neurodiversity simply means inclusion regardless of ASD status. Non-verbal autistic people fit into neurodiversity and under the ASD label. They are just a much a part of our group as we are. I don't see your basis for splitting apart ASD people.


Since we are discussing the Neanderthal theory, not child ASD diagnoses, I think I'm the one defining the concepts. Neurodiverse is not a synonym for ASD, but the first factor of factor analysis of human diversity. Similarily, neurotypical is not undiagnosed ASD, but the second factor. ASD only enter the theory because the highest correlation with (my) neurodiversity definition is with the AQ test (which should measure ASD/BAP).

IOW, that ASD has a large causative component in Neanderthal heritage is an empirical finding, and not part of the definition. Thus claims about mentally disabled children with ASD diagnoses are not relevant.



rdos
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08 Jun 2013, 12:10 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Pure doubletalk

"its not autism that matters, its BAP that matters" is tantamount to saying its not autism that matters it autism that matters.


It is impossible to use ASD diagnoses to get anywhere with ASD research. The Neanderthal theory doesn't deal with DSM diagnosis, it deals with human diversity. Some people have perverted the neurodiversity (and Aspie) terms to be a synonym to DSM ASD diagnoses, but that is not the context they are used in the Neanderthal theory.



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08 Jun 2013, 12:13 pm

rdos wrote:
beneficii wrote:
rdos wrote:
And self-awareness is a requirement in order to get an accurate diagnoses as well, because the diagnostic process also mostly relies on this.


Really? So the kid who is diagnosed at 3 is self-aware of being different? When I was diagnosed with PDD-NOS, an ASD, at age 6, I had no farkin' clue. I thought I was just ADHD. (Though I was aware of being diagnosed with Asperger's at age 13.)


I only deal with adults. This is the context the claim should be seen in.

beneficii wrote:
As for the rest of your post, I have trouble seeing how it's even relevant to what I'm talking about. I don't know what you mean by ASD verses neurodiversity. As I understand, neurotypical simply means not ASD. Neurodiversity simply means inclusion regardless of ASD status. Non-verbal autistic people fit into neurodiversity and under the ASD label. They are just a much a part of our group as we are. I don't see your basis for splitting apart ASD people.


Since we are discussing the Neanderthal theory, not child ASD diagnoses, I think I'm the one defining the concepts. Neurodiverse is not a synonym for ASD, but the first factor of factor analysis of human diversity. Similarily, neurotypical is not undiagnosed ASD, but the second factor. ASD only enter the theory because the highest correlation with (my) neurodiversity definition is with the AQ test (which should measure ASD/BAP).

IOW, that ASD has a large causative component in Neanderthal heritage is an empirical finding, and not part of the definition. Thus claims about mentally disabled children with ASD diagnoses are not relevant.


So even though I am an adult, I am excluded from consideration because I was diagnosed with an ASD as a child?

You apparently have your own definition of neurodiversity, which I honestly don't find that interesting. I only caution you to not ignore cultural factors, however. Many race-based theories regarding how people think have been found to be based on racism and to be untenable. There are many factors, such as cultural factors, implicit racial biases causing people to have certain beliefs about themselves, etc., that must be taken into account, and your theory will fail to gain much traction if you do not do your due diligence on that, and rightfully so.



rdos
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08 Jun 2013, 2:27 pm

beneficii wrote:
So even though I am an adult, I am excluded from consideration because I was diagnosed with an ASD as a child?


No, as an adult you have a pretty good idea that you are different because of what you went through as a child. As a 3 year old child you have no idea.

beneficii wrote:
You apparently have your own definition of neurodiversity, which I honestly don't find that interesting.


It's not interesting from a diagnostic perspective, but it is from a causative perspective because it singles out personality / neurodiversity from environment and mental retardation.

beneficii wrote:
I only caution you to not ignore cultural factors, however. Many race-based theories regarding how people think have been found to be based on racism and to be untenable. There are many factors, such as cultural factors, implicit racial biases causing people to have certain beliefs about themselves, etc., that must be taken into account, and your theory will fail to gain much traction if you do not do your due diligence on that, and rightfully so.


FYI, the definition of neurodiversity started with a list of 100 questions from ASD-related tests. Then every trait that could be part of human diversity was tested, and resulted in a test for neurodiversity. Of course, no racially biased traits were involved in the evolution of the test. Environment / culture was selected out by looking at correlation to environmental problems (depression, being bullied an alike) and not accepting traits with high correlations to such traits.



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08 Jun 2013, 3:14 pm

rdos wrote:
beneficii wrote:
So even though I am an adult, I am excluded from consideration because I was diagnosed with an ASD as a child?


No, as an adult you have a pretty good idea that you are different because of what you went through as a child. As a 3 year old child you have no idea.

beneficii wrote:
You apparently have your own definition of neurodiversity, which I honestly don't find that interesting.


It's not interesting from a diagnostic perspective, but it is from a causative perspective because it singles out personality / neurodiversity from environment and mental retardation.

beneficii wrote:
I only caution you to not ignore cultural factors, however. Many race-based theories regarding how people think have been found to be based on racism and to be untenable. There are many factors, such as cultural factors, implicit racial biases causing people to have certain beliefs about themselves, etc., that must be taken into account, and your theory will fail to gain much traction if you do not do your due diligence on that, and rightfully so.


FYI, the definition of neurodiversity started with a list of 100 questions from ASD-related tests. Then every trait that could be part of human diversity was tested, and resulted in a test for neurodiversity. Of course, no racially biased traits were involved in the evolution of the test. Environment / culture was selected out by looking at correlation to environmental problems (depression, being bullied an alike) and not accepting traits with high correlations to such traits.


Again, you go off in directions where I can't even follow you. I thought you were talking about participation rate, not scores on the test.



rdos
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08 Jun 2013, 3:16 pm

beneficii wrote:
Again, you go off in directions where I can't even follow you. I thought you were talking about participation rate, not scores on the test.


The participation rates were measured when the test was in the stable phase.



naturalplastic
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09 Jun 2013, 2:45 pm

rdos wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Pure doubletalk

"its not autism that matters, its BAP that matters" is tantamount to saying its not autism that matters it autism that matters.


It is impossible to use ASD diagnoses to get anywhere with ASD research. The Neanderthal theory doesn't deal with DSM diagnosis, it deals with human diversity. Some people have perverted the neurodiversity (and Aspie) terms to be a synonym to DSM ASD diagnoses, but that is not the context they are used in the Neanderthal theory.


So...

we cant use neurodiversity research to do neurodiversity research because people have perverted neurodiversity research into thinking that it is synonymous with neurodiversity research.

Have I got it right?



rdos
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09 Jun 2013, 3:21 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
So...

we cant use neurodiversity research to do neurodiversity research because people have perverted neurodiversity research into thinking that it is synonymous with neurodiversity research.

Have I got it right?


No.



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09 Jun 2013, 3:40 pm

rdos wrote:
1. They are assessing LFA (they claim about half of them are mentally disabled). That is as far from neurodiversity we can get, and thus has no relevance for neurodiversity at all


This by itself appears to undercut everything you have to say about autism and neurodiversity.



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09 Jun 2013, 3:43 pm

It's always so funny how people rant so much on the neanderthaler theory, when in fact, other theories of autism have much more problems in predictions.
We'll see in the future if it turns out to be correct, we need some autistic researchers for proposing such theories in peer-reviewed journals and maybe we'll have eventually evidence for neanderthaler theory. The theory exist for like 12 years now, and still not disproved.

I'm really curious for peer-reviewed research in this theory. I really hope someday someone is going to test it, and if this is not the case, I'll test it and try to become a researcher in the fields needed. Other theories of autism (intense world theory not) are in my opinion to simple and not all encompassing.



rdos
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09 Jun 2013, 3:59 pm

paxfilosoof wrote:
It's always so funny how people rant so much on the neanderthaler theory, when in fact, other theories of autism have much more problems in predictions.
We'll see in the future if it turns out to be correct, we need some autistic researchers for proposing such theories in peer-reviewed journals and maybe we'll have eventually evidence for neanderthaler theory. The theory exist for like 12 years now, and still not disproved.

I'm really curious for peer-reviewed research in this theory. I really hope someday someone is going to test it, and if this is not the case, I'll test it and try to become a researcher in the fields needed. Other theories of autism (intense world theory not) are in my opinion to simple and not all encompassing.


Currently, mentioning this possibility in peer-reviewed research will mean your article will be rejected.

Another problem has to do with how neurodiversity is partitioned onto a zillion different DSM labels, and mixed up with environmental problems. That's a framework that will never lead anywhere. That's another obstacle for publishing something. It's simply not possible to argue around DSM diagnoses and prove those are partially related to Neanderthal ancestry, because we have a heap of problems, and no positive traits, and such a thing could not be adaptive anywhere, not even in a different species.

That's why the first step is to publish a neurodiversity-test that can stand on it's own that contains traits with a possible evolutionary background. Once this is done, I think it will be possible to publish the neanderthal theory as well in some form.