SSRI's/St. John's Wort eliminating empathy

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Tyri0n
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14 Apr 2013, 11:54 pm

Especially affective empathy but also cognitive empathy to an extent. It is scary, clear, and complete the way these substances work.

Was chatting with classmate who messaged me to say she had a bad day, and I realized that my responses were very calloused, and the times I tried to be sympathetic didn't quite seem to fit (sympathy without empathy). It was honestly difficult to care at all, and I'm usually not this way to nearly the same extent.

Has anyone had a similar experience, and why does this happen? Are there other ways to safely increase serotonin levels aside from SSRI's and St. John's Wort?

I've had this happen under: (1) Zoloft; (2) Lexapro; and (3) St. John's Wort. Same result in every case.

What's disappointing is that Zoloft and SJW actually worked very well for depression and anxiety.



Raziel
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15 Apr 2013, 12:06 am

Those symptoms didn't happen't to me, but I can't tollerate St. Johns Worth or most SSRIs, because then I get the rare side effect: polymorphous light eruption and that's very heavy. 8O

But so far I read autism can also be -at least parrtly- cause by TOO MUCH serotonine in the brain. That could explain your symptoms you are experience. But even then you could still develop depression. This isn't just caused by too less serotonine. It can be also be caused by too less dopamine for example. So maybe an antidepressent who is more a dopamine and noradrenaline antagonist would be right for you. Have you tried that?
I'm taking agomeltanine (Valdoxan), who also works different. (Increases melatonin at night)


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Tyri0n
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15 Apr 2013, 12:20 am

Raziel wrote:
Those symptoms didn't happen't to me, but I can't tollerate St. Johns Worth or most SSRIs, because then I get the rare side effect: polymorphous light eruption and that's very heavy. 8O

But so far I read autism can also be -at least parrtly- cause by TOO MUCH serotonine in the brain. That could explain your symptoms you are experience. But even then you could still develop depression. This isn't just caused by too less serotonine. It can be also be caused by too less dopamine for example. So maybe an antidepressent who is more a dopamine and noradrenaline antagonist would be right for you. Have you tried that?
I'm taking agomeltanine (Valdoxan), who also works different. (Increases melatonin at night)


I only use natural substances now after a bad experience with prescription antidepressants. What would increase dopamine?



Tyri0n
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15 Apr 2013, 12:21 am

Raziel wrote:
Those symptoms didn't happen't to me, but I can't tollerate St. Johns Worth or most SSRIs, because then I get the rare side effect: polymorphous light eruption and that's very heavy. 8O

But so far I read autism can also be -at least parrtly- cause by TOO MUCH serotonine in the brain. That could explain your symptoms you are experience. But even then you could still develop depression. This isn't just caused by too less serotonine. It can be also be caused by too less dopamine for example. So maybe an antidepressent who is more a dopamine and noradrenaline antagonist would be right for you. Have you tried that?
I'm taking agomeltanine (Valdoxan), who also works different. (Increases melatonin at night)


I only use natural substances now after a bad experience with prescription antidepressants. What would increase dopamine? SJW really DOES kill my depression.



Dillogic
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15 Apr 2013, 12:21 am

It technically should make you more chatty and social.



Tyri0n
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15 Apr 2013, 12:30 am

Dillogic wrote:
It technically should make you more chatty and social.


Probably true for autistics who process social stuff intellectually. SSRI's actually increase my processing speed in a variety of contexts; it just blunts the intuitive/emotional processing important to many people in social situations. I have diagnosed NLD, probably also ADHD, and low processing speed (10th percentile), so I either have to process things intuitively like NT's, or I can't do it at all.



Anomiel
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15 Apr 2013, 5:23 am

Happened to me too. Trying to find some info on google, but the articles just claims the opposite should happen?

www.science20.com/news_articles/antidep ... m_aversion
http://arstechnica.com/science/2010/09/ ... -spinning/

Though the second comment on the first article says:

Quote:
"People on SSRIs will not be more empathetic if they become manic or hypomanic on the meds.

The Physicians Desk Reference states that SSRI antidepressants and all antidepressants can cause mania, psychosis, abnormal thinking, paranoia, hostility, etc. These side effects can also appear during withdrawal. Also, these adverse reactions are not listed as Rare but are listed as either Frequent or Infrequent.

Go to www.SSRIstories.com where there are over 4,100 cases, with the full media article available, involving bizarre murders, suicides, school shootings/incidents [56 of these] and murder-suicides - all of which involve SSRI antidepressants like Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, etc, . The media article usually tells which SSRI antidepressant the perpetrator was taking or had been using."



So in conclusion, maybe you're bipolar too. That comment is a bit scaremongering, I don't lose my empathy when I get manic, but I did most certainly go an artificial sort of manic on SSRIs and not having all that much serotonin to go around for empathy (as I was depressed) so maybe all went to keep me "up"? That is how I make sense of it anyway.. But it's probably 2 separate issues. It might be a question of too much serotonin, but being used wrongly. It might just be that some react differently, as they claim to see an effect on empathy when people use them it isn't so odd.
You should watch out for serotonin syndrome btw.


Maybe we react like these locust to serotonin :lol:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7858996.stm



Last edited by Anomiel on 15 Apr 2013, 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Greb
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15 Apr 2013, 6:15 am

Well, I'm on lexapro right now. I was searching info about it before getting into and... yes, what you describe in a possible side effect.

It's not supposed to happen to everybody, but it's not that unusual. Of course, antidepresssant make a person more sociable and chatty, but they make them more emotionally independant too, even inducing some kind of emotional blunt. There has been even reported problems in romantic relationships due to that. Here there's a study:

PDF Emotional Blunting Study [Click here]


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15 Apr 2013, 6:46 am

Greb wrote:
Well, I'm on lexapro right now. I was searching info about it before getting into and... yes, what you describe in a possible side effect.

It's not supposed to happen to everybody, but it's not that unusual. Of course, antidepresssant make a person more sociable and chatty, but they make them more emotionally independant too, even inducing some kind of emotional blunt. There has been even reported problems in romantic relationships due to that. Here there's a study:

PDF Emotional Blunting Study [Click here]


Thank you for the link, it's very interesting. You could say "problems in romantic relationships" again.

Quote:
A syndrome consisting of apathy and
indifference has also been reported in five patients
diagnosed with obsessive–compulsive disorder and
treated with fluoxetine or fluvoxamine (Hoehn-Saric et al.,
1990). These symptoms appeared dose-related and were
clearly differentiated from a sense of sedation. Addition-
ally, the patients in that study (Hoehn-Saric et al., 1990)
clearly identified the symptoms of emotional blunting as
being abnormal for them. A fluoxetine-induced frontal
lobe syndrome, including symptoms of apathy, in-
difference, inattention, and perseveration was also
reported in a patient with obsessive-compulsive disorder
(Hoehn-Saric et al., 1991). The clinical presentation was
associated with abnormal neuropsychological testing, and
decreased frontal lobe blood flow on SPECT, both
consistent with frontal lobe impairment.


OH. MY. GOD. They turn people into psychopath-lites?

I was already aware of the implications of losing empathy. I was just shocked they could see that kind of effect on the brain in some.


This was the conclusion of the paper anyway (Not trying to steal your thunder Greb, just pasting for easy access)

Quote:
How could SSRIs be inducing emotional blunting ? One
speculative thought is that SSRIs may be reducing the
function of specific brain areas involved in emotional
processing. An example of such an area is the anterior
cingulate. A recent study suggests that regional brain
metabolism, as measured by positron emission tom-
ography, is reduced in the anterior cingulate of depressed
subjects when compared to non-depressed subjects
(Kennedy et al., 1997). This cortical region is associated
with emotional expression, regulation of affect, and is
modulated by dopaminergic, noradrenergic, and
cholinergic systems. Increases and decreases in cingulate
activity have been reported during depression and
following treatment (Kennedy et al., 2001). Rather than
restore normal function to this area, SSRI administration
has been shown to further decrease activity in the anterior
cingulate cortex (Ebert and Ebmeier, 1996). Finally,
another study found that noradrenergic challenge in-
creased anterior cingulate activity (Dubini et al., 1997).
This line of reasoning raises the possibility, albeit a
speculative one, that emotional blunting may be related to
reduced metabolism in the anterior cingulate or other
limbic areas such as the amygdala. Additionally, it could
be that certain groups of patients experience emotional
blunting as part of the therapeutic effect, diminishing
emotional responses to aversive life situations or stress.
This may explain why some non-depressed patients with
irritability (Elfenbein, 1995), patients with impulse control,
or those with anxiety disorders improve with SSRI
administration.

In summary, emotional blunting associated with SSRI
treatment may be more common than previously thought.
Further study is required to determine the frequency of
this phenomenon, whether it is associated primarily with
SSRI antidepressants, whether usually associated with the
presence of sexual dysfunction, and what the functional
implications of these symptoms are. We speculate that in
some patients, rather than representing a side-effect,
blunting of emotions may be the central therapeutic effect
of SSRIs.



Greb
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15 Apr 2013, 7:52 am

Anomiel wrote:
This was the conclusion of the paper anyway (Not trying to steal your thunder Greb, just pasting for easy access)


Hey! What are you doing!! ! Delete that inmediately!! !

PS Just in case, I'm kidding. :D


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15 Apr 2013, 9:24 am

Dillogic wrote:
It technically should make you more chatty and social.


Well then I guess chatty social people lack empathy. :P


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Tyri0n
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15 Apr 2013, 9:47 am

I wonder if the studies that show a beneficial result are for low-functioning autistics with no intuitive emotional sense to begin with. Like I said, I imagine that SSRI's would help someone who normally processes social situations intellectually. However, that is not an option for me, due to my learning disabilities. The more I have to process visual information consciously, the worse I do.

I process everything intuitively or not at all, and SSRI/SJW kill this ability.

Quote:
A syndrome consisting of apathy and
indifference has also been reported in five patients
diagnosed with obsessive–compulsive disorder and
treated with fluoxetine or fluvoxamine (Hoehn-Saric et al.,
1990). These symptoms appeared dose-related and were
clearly differentiated from a sense of sedation. Addition-
ally, the patients in that study (Hoehn-Saric et al., 1990)
clearly identified the symptoms of emotional blunting as
being abnormal for them. A fluoxetine-induced frontal
lobe syndrome, including symptoms of apathy, in-
difference, inattention, and perseveration was also
reported in a patient with obsessive-compulsive disorder
(Hoehn-Saric et al., 1991). The clinical presentation was
associated with abnormal neuropsychological testing, and
decreased frontal lobe blood flow on SPECT, both
consistent with frontal lobe impairment.


This is not my experience, however. SSRI's make me hyperfocused and motivated. They just kill my empathy and regard for other people. Well, they kill all emotions except anger/hostility.

Quote:
So in conclusion, maybe you're bipolar too. That comment is a bit scaremongering, I don't lose my empathy when I get manic, but I did most certainly go an artificial sort of manic on SSRIs and not having all that much serotonin to go around for empathy (as I was depressed) so maybe all went to keep me "up"? That is how I make sense of it anyway.. But it's probably 2 separate issues. It might be a question of too much serotonin, but being used wrongly. It might just be that some react differently, as they claim to see an effect on empathy when people use them it isn't so odd.
You should watch out for serotonin syndrome btw.


Maybe. The problem is I don't have the sleep disturbances necessary for bipolar disorder. I am also prone to Serotonin Syndrome. I started to get it after I was prescribed 100 mg/day of Zoloft and had to go back and get the dose reduced.



marshall
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15 Apr 2013, 11:18 am

I've found that increasing serotonin too much simply doesn't have much of an emotional effect on me at all, other than inducing extremely unpleasant physical side effects beyond a certain dose (akathisia, nausea, jitteriness, constant stomach growling). I've been on at least a low dose some kind of SSRI/SNRI pretty much all my adult life though to the point where I'm probably dependent for life. Of course I had horrible depression way back in my teens when I was on nothing.

What caused horrible emotional blunting for me was Risperdal (horrible stuff). It took away all my interest in anything and made me feel depressed as hell. It was supposed to treat irritability but made me feel more irritable whenever I wasn't just too sleepy to function. It also made gain 30 pounds.

Anyways, I discovered the "alertness" drug provigil has an off-label effect on my depression. I also find my mood swings are less severe and I don't get angered quit as easily. It's interesting I only discovered it from trying to counteract the negative symptom of Risperdal (sleepiness). I just notice it's kind of like a traditional stimulant but different in that it isn't so harsh and doesn't make me feel too "wired up".



Anomiel
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15 Apr 2013, 2:06 pm

Tyri0n wrote:
I wonder if the studies that show a beneficial result are for low-functioning autistics with no intuitive emotional sense to begin with. Like I said, I imagine that SSRI's would help someone who normally processes social situations intellectually. However, that is not an option for me, due to my learning disabilities. The more I have to process visual information consciously, the worse I do.

I process everything intuitively or not at all, and SSRI/SJW kill this ability.

Quote:
A syndrome consisting of apathy and
indifference has also been reported in five patients
diagnosed with obsessive–compulsive disorder and
treated with fluoxetine or fluvoxamine (Hoehn-Saric et al.,
1990). These symptoms appeared dose-related and were
clearly differentiated from a sense of sedation. Addition-
ally, the patients in that study (Hoehn-Saric et al., 1990)
clearly identified the symptoms of emotional blunting as
being abnormal for them. A fluoxetine-induced frontal
lobe syndrome, including symptoms of apathy, in-
difference, inattention, and perseveration was also
reported in a patient with obsessive-compulsive disorder
(Hoehn-Saric et al., 1991). The clinical presentation was
associated with abnormal neuropsychological testing, and
decreased frontal lobe blood flow on SPECT, both
consistent with frontal lobe impairment.


This is not my experience, however. SSRI's make me hyperfocused and motivated. They just kill my empathy and regard for other people. Well, they kill all emotions except anger/hostility.

Quote:
So in conclusion, maybe you're bipolar too. That comment is a bit scaremongering, I don't lose my empathy when I get manic, but I did most certainly go an artificial sort of manic on SSRIs and not having all that much serotonin to go around for empathy (as I was depressed) so maybe all went to keep me "up"? That is how I make sense of it anyway.. But it's probably 2 separate issues. It might be a question of too much serotonin, but being used wrongly. It might just be that some react differently, as they claim to see an effect on empathy when people use them it isn't so odd.
You should watch out for serotonin syndrome btw.


Maybe. The problem is I don't have the sleep disturbances necessary for bipolar disorder. I am also prone to Serotonin Syndrome. I started to get it after I was prescribed 100 mg/day of Zoloft and had to go back and get the dose reduced.


I was just thinking out loud, trying to make sense of the what I had just read :D And trying to see if there was a common denominator. Why don't you quit it then, or change type (not just brand)?

ETA: The study wasn't about those 5 people that showed frontal lobe issues btw. You should read it.



Last edited by Anomiel on 15 Apr 2013, 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anomiel
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15 Apr 2013, 2:07 pm

Greb wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
This was the conclusion of the paper anyway (Not trying to steal your thunder Greb, just pasting for easy access)


Hey! What are you doing!! ! Delete that inmediately!! !

PS Just in case, I'm kidding. :D


:lmao:



SuSaNnA
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15 Apr 2013, 4:22 pm

I think drugs change personality/ reactions/ behaviour/ perception a lot.

When I was on Zoloft/ Lexapro, people find me rather calm, tamed, nice, but slow.
When I was on Epilim, I get angry easily, became rude, but am able to think really fast -- very good grades in exams too.