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Spiderpig
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06 Sep 2016, 9:42 am

English heifer and Spanish jefe (‘boss, chief’). Pronounced as closely as phonetics allows for non-rhotic English dialects.

I’ve just noticed this pair, after remembering a certain someone asking me online, “Is your girlfriend a heifer?”.

EDIT – On second thought, the non-rhotic pronunciation of English heifer is even closer to that of the feminine form jefa :lol: English has only one final, unstressed vowel to approximate both Spanish -e and -a, but it definitely sounds more like the latter to Spanish speakers.


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15 Sep 2016, 4:53 pm

Catalan estic (‘[I] am’, used roughly to describe a state, as opposed to an essence, for which the corresponding verb form is sóc; Catalan has two copulative verbs, like Spanish and Portuguese) and English stick. In eastern Catalan dialects, the leading e is pronounced as a schwa, certainly laxer than a Spanish unstressed initial e followed by an s, which makes the word sound closer to the English one than it could otherwise be expected to.


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20 Sep 2016, 3:46 pm

The English phrase speak a language sounds similar enough to Spanish pica [la] lengua ('[the/your/one's] tongue itches'; in childish speech, it can mean by itself 'my tongue is itching') for the following verse of "Galway Bay" to evoke an itching tongue ...

Arthur Colahan wrote:
For the breezes blowing o'er the seas from Ireland
Are perfumed by the heather as they blow,
And the women in the uplands, digging praties,
Speak a language that the strangers do not know,


... when heard this way by a Spanish speaker:

Quote:
<something utterly incomprehensible>
<ditto>
<ditto>
pica [la] lengua <ditto>


The leading s- in speak is easily and unconsciously ignored, because it doesn't occur in Spanish in a syllable-initial position followed by another consonant. Another possible meaning of pica la lengua is (imperative) 'mince the tongue' (presumably a pig or a cow's).

Similarly, speak English sounds pretty reminiscent of pican [las] ingles ('[the/your/one's] groins itch'). Note the unaccented e, meaning the word stress falls on its default position, which is on the leading syllable in this case: IN - gles. It's a different and unrelated word from inglés ('English'), where the stress falls on the second syllable.


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MidoriNoKaori
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03 Oct 2016, 2:02 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
Esperanto zumo (‘buzz, hum’) and Spanish zumo (‘juice’). The leading z is pronounced differently; there are no voiced sibilants in modern Spanish.


すみませんが、また日本語をちょっとかいています。

In Finnish and Japanese languages, there are some same and different words... Few examples below...

Sumu (住む) means to live in Japanese but in Finnish it is fog,
Hana (はな) means either flower (花) or nose (鼻) in Japanese, in Finnish it is a word for (water) tap.
Himo (ひも) means a cord or cords used for example to tie a kimono, in Finnish it means lust.
Hima (ひま) means freetime or sparetime in Japanese - and coincindentally - it is also a word for homee in Finnish slang or spoken language,
Tori (とり) means bird (鳥) in Japanese - a market place in Finnish.
Kasa (かさ) means umbrella (傘) in Japanese, a pile of (something) in Finnish.



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03 Oct 2016, 3:28 pm

Catalan truita can mean both 'omelette' and 'trout'. Dialectal Portuguese truita (standard truta) means only 'trout'.


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03 Oct 2016, 5:21 pm

MidoriNoKaori wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Well, home means ‘man’ in Catalan and dialectal, non-standard Portuguese (the standard form being homem, where the final -m generally isn’t pronounced as a consonant; it just means the preceding e is nasal). Neither is pronounced anything like the English word; much closer (according to Wiktionary) to the Finnish one, except with the h silent and without that funny thing at the end represented in IPA by a superscripted x :P


Ok. I don't know about Portuguese or Catalan or Spanish, but in French word for man is homme - pronounced without the letter h in the beginning (as in French usually is). Might be something to do with that Spanish, French and Catalan belong to the same language group :-)

The French word on which is used normally in passive structures (on ne sait pas - it isn't known) is also related to the word homme.


Even Anglo North Americans fear "bands of bad hombres"! Lol! (thanks to the linguist exchange between Mexico and the American West between Spanish and English in the common cowboy culture of both countries).

Catalan, French, Portugese, and Spanish, are all Romance languages (both Gaul, and the Iberian peninsula were conquered by Rome). So their words for "man" all have the family resemblence to "homo" (the ancient Latin word for "man") from which each languages' word derives.

And of course Latin is why all fossil hominids have the word "homo" in their scientific names (homo sapiens, homo erectus, homo hablis, etc).

But on the other hand....speaking of "false friends": the Latin "homo" has NO kinship to the Greek word "homo" which means "same".

From the Greek we get "homogenized milk". And we also get "homosexual" (being attracted to the same sex). Some folks wrongly think that the "homo" in "homosexual" is from the Latin "homo" (man) and wrongly think that the word "homosexual" only applies to men who are attracted to other men, and that Lesbians arent "homosexuals" (logically that would also mean that straight women would BE 'homosexuals'). But that is a misconception (gay men, and lesbians, are both classed as homosexual because both groups attracted to their own same gender).



MidoriNoKaori
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04 Oct 2016, 8:17 am

naturalplastic wrote:
MidoriNoKaori wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Well, home means ‘man’ in Catalan and dialectal, non-standard Portuguese (the standard form being homem, where the final -m generally isn’t pronounced as a consona8nt; it just means the preceding e is nasal). Neither is pronounced anything like the English word; much closer (according to Wiktionary) to the Finnish one, except with the h silent and without that funny thing at the end represented in IPA by a superscripted x :P


Ok. I don't know about Portuguese or Catalan or Spanish, but in French word for man is homme - pronounced without the letter h in the beginning (as in French usually is). Might be something to do with that Spanish, French and Catalan belong to the same language group :-)

The French word on which is used normally in passive structures (on ne sait pas - it isn't known) is also related to the word homme.


Even Anglo North Americans fear "bands of bad hombres"! Lol! (thanks to the linguist exchange between Mexico and the American West between Spanish and English in the common cowboy culture of both countries).


To comfuse more with similar-like words, French word ombre (derived from Latin word umbra) means shadow or shade. English word for umbrella is also - according to some internet sources - deriving from same source meaning "sunshade, parasol".



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04 Oct 2016, 4:33 pm

MidoriNoKaori wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
MidoriNoKaori wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Well, home means ‘man’ in Catalan and dialectal, non-standard Portuguese (the standard form being homem, where the final -m generally isn’t pronounced as a consona8nt; it just means the preceding e is nasal). Neither is pronounced anything like the English word; much closer (according to Wiktionary) to the Finnish one, except with the h silent and without that funny thing at the end represented in IPA by a superscripted x :P


Ok. I don't know about Portuguese or Catalan or Spanish, but in French word for man is homme - pronounced without the letter h in the beginning (as in French usually is). Might be something to do with that Spanish, French and Catalan belong to the same language group :-)

The French word on which is used normally in passive structures (on ne sait pas - it isn't known) is also related to the word homme.


Even Anglo North Americans fear "bands of bad hombres"! Lol! (thanks to the linguist exchange between Mexico and the American West between Spanish and English in the common cowboy culture of both countries).


To comfuse more with similar-like words, French word ombre (derived from Latin word umbra) means shadow or shade. English word for umbrella is also - according to some internet sources - deriving from same source meaning "sunshade, parasol".


Umbrella is likely "umbra" (shade) plus "ella" (little), for "little shade that you carry around"- taken directly from Latin. In modern Spanish that first "h" is always silent. So the French "ombre" probably sounds much like the Spanish "hombre" even though they are unrelated words.



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04 Oct 2016, 5:45 pm

In fact, the h in hombre (and most other words with one in any position) has never been pronounced in Spanish. It's purely etymological and wasn't always used. Other instances of h were added for more fancy reasons, like preventing an i or u from being read as j (e.g., hielo, 'ice') or v (huevo, 'egg'; aldehuela, 'little village', diminutive of aldea, 'village'), respectively, when each of these pairs was still considered the same letter, its particular shape being a matter of context or style (compare English haue and vpon for modern have and upon), or to mark a hiatus between vowels which would otherwise form a diphthong (ahíto, 'suffering from indigestion'), before the accent took over this function (reír, 'to laugh'; nowadays, an h which isn't part of the digraph ch has no effect on pronunciation whatsoever, but it was left behind anyway in words where it was already in use when the accent was added).

The only kind of Spanish h which was ever pronounced after Romance languages differentiated from one another is the one coming from initial Latin f, usually revealed by cognates in other Romance languages retaining the latter consonant: hierro ('iron'), horno ('hearth'), hoz ('sickle'); compare French fer, four, faux (noun, unrelated to the homonymic adjective meaning 'false'); Portuguese ferro, forno, fouce/foice; Catalan ferro, forn, falç; Italian ferro, forno, falce. This loss of initial f is due to early Basque influence, which also affected the Gascon dialect of Occitan (in which the word festa 'party, festival', cognate to Spanish fiesta, is rendered as hesta). The f- became an aspiration, which later disappeared; ironically, for most of its existence, the aspiration was still written f-.


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MidoriNoKaori
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06 Oct 2016, 12:57 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
MidoriNoKaori wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
MidoriNoKaori wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
Well, home means ‘man’ in Catalan and dialectal, non-standard Portuguese (the standard form being homem, where the final -m generally isn’t pronounced as a consona8nt; it just means the preceding e is nasal). Neither is pronounced anything like the English word; much closer (according to Wiktionary) to the Finnish one, except with the h silent and without that funny thing at the end represented in IPA by a superscripted x :P


Ok. I don't know about Portuguese or Catalan or Spanish, but in French word for man is homme - pronounced without the letter h in the beginning (as in French usually is). Might be something to do with that Spanish, French and Catalan belong to the same language group :-)

The French word on which is used normally in passive structures (on ne sait pas - it isn't known) is also related to the word homme.


Even Anglo North Americans fear "bands of bad hombres"! Lol! (thanks to the linguist exchange between Mexico and the American West between Spanish and English in the common cowboy culture of both countries).


To comfuse more with similar-like words, French word ombre (derived from Latin word umbra) means shadow or shade. English word for umbrella is also - according to some internet sources - deriving from same source meaning "sunshade, parasol".


Umbrella is likely "umbra" (shade) plus "ella" (little), for "little shade that you carry around"- taken directly from Latin. In modern Spanish that first "h" is always silent. So he French "ombre" probably sounds much like the Spanish "hombre" even though they are unrelated words.


Sorry, Internet is full of different kind of sources and different kind of etymologies :-)



MidoriNoKaori
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06 Oct 2016, 1:18 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
In fact, the h in hombre (and most other words with one in any position) has never been pronounced in Spanish. It's purely etymological and wasn't always used. Other instances of h were added for more fancy reasons, like preventing an i or u from being read as j (e.g., hielo, 'ice') or v (huevo, 'egg'; aldehuela, 'little village', diminutive of aldea, 'village'), respectively, when each of these pairs was still considered the same letter, its particular shape being a matter of context or style (compare English haue and vpon for modern have and upon), or to mark a hiatus between vowels which would otherwise form a diphthong (ahíto, 'suffering from indigestion'), before the accent took over this function (reír, 'to laugh'; nowadays, an h which isn't part of the digraph ch has no effect on pronunciation whatsoever, but it was left behind anyway in words where it was already in use when the accent was added).

The only kind of Spanish h which was ever pronounced after Romance languages differentiated from one another is the one coming from initial Latin f, usually revealed by cognates in other Romance languages retaining the latter consonant: hierro ('iron'), horno ('hearth'), hoz ('sickle'); compare French fer, four, faux (noun, unrelated to the homonymic adjective meaning 'false'); Portuguese ferro, forno, fouce/foice; Catalan ferro, forn, falç; Italian ferro, forno, falce. This loss of initial f is due to early Basque influence, which also affected the Gascon dialect of Occitan (in which the word festa 'party, festival', cognate to Spanish fiesta, is rendered as hesta). The f- became an aspiration, which later disappeared; ironically, for most of its existence, the aspiration was still written f-.


Little bit out of topic, but one curious thing about not pronouncing and also altering words is seen in certain French words which are written almost the same but pronounced differently compared to English (for example hopital - hospital, ile - ile, chateau - castle).



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06 Oct 2016, 5:54 pm

If I remember correctly, in French, written, syllable-final s was kept for centuries after it stopped being pronounced, to mark the altered quality it left behind in the preceding vowel. By the time this convention was changed to using the circumflex accent instead (as in the name of the mathematician L'Hôpital, which was still spelled L'Hospital during his lifetime), this effect on the vowel was already disappearing, too, at least in many cases. I don't know exactly what the accent marks today, but I think it was removed a few years ago from some words in which it had no phonetic significance.


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11 Oct 2016, 7:19 pm

that word/syllable-final s thing is funny. it disappeared in french, it's in the process of disappearing in some spanish dialects, and i thought a similar effect also applied to my native dialect of portuguese (which is poorly documented, and is indistinctly mixed and alternated with standard language nowadays). but then i realized that in my dialect it has nothing to do with phonetics, and it's actually about inflection. it's just that we tend to only pluralize articles and demonstratives (the, these), while nouns and adjectives remain singular

the other blue house = a outra casa azul -> a otra casa azul
the other blue houses = as outras casas azuis -> as otra casa azul (not azui)

or maybe it did have something to do with phonetics at first (there are some words where a syllable-final s is dropped or vocalized: mesmo -> memo, mas -> mai) but then it got associated specifically with plurals (and became a grammatical feature governing inflection itself instead of just pronunciation), while the general s-dropping tendency stopped. but that's just my own theory, and i'm just guessing. i never really saw an explanation for this. it's something i've been curious about for a long time


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11 Oct 2016, 7:44 pm

false friends are a big problem when you speak either portuguese or spanish and you're learning the other one of those two languages (the same also applies to italian, but not as much). for the most part, portuguese and spanish are close to mutually intelligible (as long as you have enough exposure to the pronunciation, which is very different, and can vary from one dialect to another almost as much as from one language to the other). on one hand it means you practically have an "advanced" level of the other language from the beginning. on the other hand... it means it's often not easy to tell what you don't know

if you really look for it (or sometimes just by accident), you can come up with indefinitely long sequences of identical or nearly identical words (some are just coincidence, but most of them are actual cognates) which don't mean what you probably think it means, and there's a lot of room for confusion

one chain of words that i came across recently was this one:
(<spanish> = <portuguese> = <english>)

escritorio = escrivaninha = desk
oficina = escritório = office
taller = oficina = workshop
cubierto = talher = piece of cutlery

that was a rather short chain though (escribanía = escrivaninha = desk, and cubierto = coberto = covered). i remember thinking of longer ones, but i can't think of any off the top of my head right now


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11 Oct 2016, 8:02 pm

there's always the classic one that gets all native portuguese speakers who aren't familiar with basic english...

Image

in portuguese, if you were supposed to pull the door, the sign would read "puxe", which is pronounced almost exactly the same way as "push". it never ceases to be confusing, really. to make matters worse, (spanish) empujar = (english) push. which is doubly confusing because it does sound a lot like (portuguese) empurrar, and it does mean the same thing, but portuguese x usually corresponds to j in spanish, so it's like it's equivalent to "empuxar" (which, as it turns out, does exist in portuguese and i didn't even know. and it does mean the opposite of "puxar"). AGH, MY HEAD!! :lol:


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12 Oct 2016, 5:15 am

I remember reading a bit about the dropping of the plural -s marker in popular Brazilian Portuguese, and it seemed to be originally due to the influence of indigenous languages with no grammatical number agreement, which caused the speakers to feel that a single plural marker is enough in each noun phrase, usually attached to the first word in it. It also explains the loss of the -m which distinguishes some third-person plural verb forms from their singular counterparts, contributing to a process not unlike the one which led English to shed person and number inflection in verbs almost entirely, relying on personal pronouns to convey that information:

[eu] canto --> eu canto
[tu] cantas --> você canta
[ele/ela] canta --> ele/ela canta
[nós] cantamos --> a gente canta
[vós] cantais --> vocês canta
[eles/elas] cantam --> eles/elas canta

I don't know about the loss of -s in particular, very frequently used words, but it could be due to idiosyncratic developments unrelated to phonetic evolution, like English yeah, which seems to come from the now archaic yea (pronounced like modern yay, but used differently), rather than being yes with the -s dropped.

There is, however, one single Portuguese dialect in which final s is dropped as a general phenomenon: barranquenho. Unsurprisingly, it's spoken in a remote corner of southern Portugal bordering Spanish Andalusia (where Spanish isn't really in the process of dropping syllable-final s—the process was completed centuries ago, but you can hear the consonant being hesitantly pronounced today, especially in formal speech, due to the greater prestige of northern Spanish dialects, where it was never lost). Barrancos has strong cultural ties to Encinasola, which lies on the other side of the border, but much closer than any other Portuguese town.

Quote:
A menina e a moura

Erão seti irmõih e uma irmã. Oh irmõih sê forom a corrê o mundo, e a ficarom a ela sozinha.
Ela um dia foi a labá a um barranco ali perto; sê tirô a tôca que lebaba, e beio uma águia e se lha lebô. Ela saiu correndo detráh da águia dizendo:
- Águia, dá-mi a minha toquinha!
E a águia lhê dizia:
- Anda maih para dianti, que ondi ehtão oh teuh irmõih ta dô.
A águia foi e dexô caí a tôca encima duma choça, e a rapariga quando chegô lá, abriu a porta, entrô e se dexô ehtá ali até que bierom oh irmõih.
Elih nunca maih quiserom que ela se fossi embora, para quê ficassi ali tratando delih.
Doih ó trêh diah depoih a menina foi a buhcá acelgah, e se encontrô uma belha que lê disse:
- Nã baia tão longi, dexa que eu lebo aqui e tê dô.
À noiti quando bierom oh irmõih ehtiberom jantando, mah ela nã tinha bontadi, e não comeu. Ao otro dia quando sê lebantô ehtabam oh irmõih fêtoh em boi, e nã tebi maih remédio que leba-loh a comê pelo campo.
Passadoh doih ó trêh dia passô por um caminho dondi a biu o filho do rei, e lhe perguntô porque ehtaba ela ali, e ela le ehtebi contando o que lhe passaba. O príncipi então lhe disse que se dexassi ehtá ali subida numa árbori, que eli ía a lebá oh boih e boltaba a buhcá-la.
Debaxo da árbori ehtaba uma fonti ondi ela bia a sombra dela, e beio uma belha a buhcá água e ao bê a sombra disse:
Quem é tã guapa e tã formosa...
que bem por água aqui à fonti!
Partiu o cântaro e se foi a casa. Assim beio doih ó trêh diah, até que trôxe um de lata. E ehti já não era capaz de parti-lo; e tanto golpih le deu que a rapariga se riu.
A belha ao bê-la lhe disse:
- Que fazih aí subida?
E a rapariga lê ehtebi contando que ehtaba ehperando o principi. E a belha lhe disse:
- Baxa-te que tê pentêo para que tejah maih guapa quando eli benha!
A rapariga se feh caso, e quando a taba pentiando lê tanchô um alfineti na cabeça; se feh numa pomba e se foi boando; e depoih a belha se subiu encima da árbori e ehperô o príncipi.
Quando ehti beio e a biu, lê disse:
- Tã guapa que te dêxê e tã fêa que te tenh pohto!
E ela le rehpondeu:
Boçê tanto se tem tardado,
que o sol me tem torrado!
O príncipi então sa lebô, e se casô com ela.
Logo, depoih dê algum tempo aparecia a pomba ao jardim e cantaba assim:
- Como bai o príncipi com sua rica Môra?
- Bem, senhora!
- E o menino canta ó chora?
- Canta, senhora.
- E eu por ehtih campoh só, e oh mêh pobrih irmanitoh acariando cá e terra para o campo da Môra!
O príncipi ao ôbi ihto tratô de colhê a pomba, mah eli armaba o laço e a belha o tiraba. Até quê um dia a colheu.
Eli a trataba muinto bem, só a belha é que a trataba má. E um dia o príncipi le ehtaba passando a mão pela cabeça à pomba, e ao senti um bulto puchô, e tirô o alfineti.
A rapariga se feh formosa o mehmo que era, e le ehtebi contando tudo.
Depoih matarom a belha e se cazarom e ali ficarom bibendo.


http://www.galeon.com/lenguasdeextremad ... quenho.htm

anagram wrote:
one chain of words that i came across recently was this one:
(<spanish> = <portuguese> = <english>)

escritorio = escrivaninha = desk
oficina = escritório = office
taller = oficina = workshop
cubierto = talher = piece of cutlery

that was a rather short chain though (escribanía = escrivaninha = desk, and cubierto = coberto = covered). i remember thinking of longer ones, but i can't think of any off the top of my head right now


Hah, I described that chain myself in this very thread, a few pages back, except I mentioned the Spanish diminutive escribanita instead of escribanía. The former mimics the morphology of Portuguese escrivaninha—it just hasn't acquired an idiomatic meaning of its own, so its only possible sense is the analytic 'little female scribe'.


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