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thomas81
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08 Nov 2013, 1:18 pm

Israel is the number one suspect

http://news.sky.com/story/1165820/arafa ... ly-suspect


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08 Nov 2013, 1:31 pm

Calm your horses. Best to stay calm and wait and see.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 29762.html


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08 Nov 2013, 1:40 pm

While I'm against the death penalty, executing Arafat wasn't really worse than executing Gaddafi. The US executes a two digit number of people every year with much less to answer for. Not only was he responsible for killing civilians in Israel, but he also helped Saddam Hussein wreck havock in Kuwait



thomas81
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08 Nov 2013, 3:02 pm

91 wrote:
Calm your horses. Best to stay calm and wait and see.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 29762.html



My understanding is the polonium discovery was the result of extensive post-mortems.
Therefore the only remaining question is who else had :

a) The motive

and

b) access to polonium at the same time?

This absolutely reeks of a mossad job.


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thomas81
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08 Nov 2013, 3:13 pm

Kurgan wrote:
While I'm against the death penalty, executing Arafat wasn't really worse than executing Gaddafi. The US executes a two digit number of people every year with much less to answer for. Not only was he responsible for killing civilians in Israel, but he also helped Saddam Hussein wreck havock in Kuwait


Thats a very short sighted critique. He was one of the more reasonable brokers in the middle east peace process and a great loss to Palestinian diplomacy. Had he been able to continue his work, a two state solution may have been realised by now.

Israel's behaviour (specifically its ambivalence towards illegal settlers) is evidence that Israel was never interested in a two state solution from day one. Removing Arafat is arguably in its interests in order to derail the Palestinian statehood process.

As for Gadaffi, love him or loathe him, but at the very least you cannot deny he deserved a trial over a summary execution. No doubt the rebels denied him one is because he would have turned it into a spectacle and showed the NTC up for the liars and cowards that they are.


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08 Nov 2013, 3:20 pm

The number of people with motives would be comparable to the number of characters in any Agatha Christie novel, and it would include rival Palestinians.

After decades of fighting him why would Israel pick THAT moment to do him in?

At the time of his death the suspect with the least to gain, and the most to loose, by his death would be Israel.

The one with the most to gain, and the least to loose ( if not exposed), would be Hamas.



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08 Nov 2013, 4:38 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
The number of people with motives would be comparable to the number of characters in any Agatha Christie novel, and it would include rival Palestinians.

The one with the most to gain, and the least to loose ( if not exposed), would be Hamas.



Yes, i forgot about that stash of nuclear material that Hamas has access to. :roll:


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08 Nov 2013, 5:10 pm

thomas81 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
The number of people with motives would be comparable to the number of characters in any Agatha Christie novel, and it would include rival Palestinians.

The one with the most to gain, and the least to loose ( if not exposed), would be Hamas.



Yes, i forgot about that stash of nuclear material that Hamas has access to. :roll:


Coulda got it from allies like Russia, or Iran.



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08 Nov 2013, 5:15 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Thats a very short sighted critique. He was one of the more reasonable brokers in the middle east peace process and a great loss to Palestinian diplomacy. Had he been able to continue his work, a two state solution may have been realised by now.



He was a lesser evil than Hamas, but he still did more harm than good. Even if he meant well, the history is full of people who did awful things because they believed that the ends justified the means.

Quote:
Israel's behaviour (specifically its ambivalence towards illegal settlers) is evidence that Israel was never interested in a two state solution from day one. Removing Arafat is arguably in its interests in order to derail the Palestinian statehood process.


They would be if the Palestinian government didn't violate ceasefires time after time.

Quote:
As for Gadaffi, love him or loathe him, but at the very least you cannot deny he deserved a trial over a summary execution. No doubt the rebels denied him one is because he would have turned it into a spectacle and showed the NTC up for the liars and cowards that they are.


He should have gotten a fair trial, but the people were angry and vented their anger after decades of opression.



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08 Nov 2013, 5:21 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Coulda got it from allies like Russia, or Iran.


Israel is a pseudo-satellite and ally of America.

Russia and Iran would stand to lose more from the toppling of the Palestinian leadership than they would gain. I really doubt they would go to such lengths to kill an elderly old man in an obscure strip on land in a small westernised country the size of luxembourg.

Besides they would need the holding infrastructure to prevent unwanted contamination.


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08 Nov 2013, 5:54 pm

If Arafat was poisoned and I don't think this confirms it, it could be any number of people that could of been responsible. The guy had plenty of enemies and there is no shortage of extremists on his side of the conflict. Yitzhak Rabin was an murdered by extremist Orthodox Jew who was opposed to the Oslo Accords, Anwar Sadat was murdered by extremist Muslims who opposed making peace with Israel, Mahatma Gandhi was murdered by Hindu extremists because he wanted peace with Muslims.



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08 Nov 2013, 6:01 pm

Jacoby wrote:
If Arafat was poisoned and I don't think this confirms it, it could be any number of people that could of been responsible. The guy had plenty of enemies and there is no shortage of extremists on his side of the conflict.


When you factor in the fact that the culprit had to have access to polonium, it narrows down the list of suspects considerably.

I don't see why Russia or Iran had reason to have beef with either Arafat or the Palestinians.

I would put down the list of suspects as

1- Mossad
2- CIA
3- MI5

in order of likliehood.


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08 Nov 2013, 6:16 pm

thomas81 wrote:
[I would put down the list of suspects as

1- Mossad
2- CIA
3- MI5

in order of likliehood.


Of course you would.

It occurs that polonium is usually used when a country wants it to be known that they were behind a killing without officially acknowledging it, yet there is no real reason for Israel to want to be implicated in killing Arafat; on the other hand, there are plenty of people who'd like to implicate Israel in such a killing, and a large audience ready to believe it.


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thomas81
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08 Nov 2013, 6:33 pm

Dox47 wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
[I would put down the list of suspects as

1- Mossad
2- CIA
3- MI5

in order of likliehood.


Of course you would.

It occurs that polonium is usually used when a country wants it to be known that they were behind a killing without officially acknowledging it, yet there is no real reason for Israel to want to be implicated in killing Arafat; on the other hand, there are plenty of people who'd like to implicate Israel in such a killing, and a large audience ready to believe it.


and, for the nth time, would also require them to have access to said substance in first place. Maybe Israel's gambit is that with this sort of speculation people wouldn't call its bluff. Perhaps they didn't reckon that the Palestinians would be smart enough to work out it wasn't natural causes.

Now, what on Earth would Iran or Russia stand to gain?

For the record i doubt that Iran has access to Polonium let alone be inclined to use it in assassination missions. Its nuclear proliferation attempts thus far have been under intense scrutiny.


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08 Nov 2013, 6:50 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
If Arafat was poisoned and I don't think this confirms it, it could be any number of people that could of been responsible. The guy had plenty of enemies and there is no shortage of extremists on his side of the conflict.


When you factor in the fact that the culprit had to have access to polonium, it narrows down the list of suspects considerably.

I don't see why Russia or Iran had reason to have beef with either Arafat or the Palestinians.

I would put down the list of suspects as

1- Mossad
2- CIA
3- MI5

in order of likliehood.


The guy had a lot of enemies, it wouldn't necessarily have to be someone capable a producing this poison to be behind this just that just someone with connections that could get a hold of it. I don't think it was the CIA or MI5, I do not think the US would risk such a potential provocation especially with the war in Iraq going so badly at the time. If Arafat was poisoned then I would guess it was either Mossad or someone or some group from the Arab side of conflict that could of had beef with him for any number of reasons.

Hamas is opposed to peace with Israel(and this isn't an uncommon viewpoint in the Arab world) and tensions between Hamas and Fatah came to a peak not long after Arafat's death culminating with Hamas taking control of Gaza. You would think Israel and the US would much rather deal with Arafat than they would the even more extreme Hamas right?

In the end, who knows. Unless there is some leak or something that confirms it then I doubt we'll ever know for sure. The Swiss scientists only said that it is possible that Arafat was poisoned, with only 80% certainty.



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08 Nov 2013, 7:11 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
[I would put down the list of suspects as

1- Mossad
2- CIA
3- MI5

in order of likliehood.


Of course you would.

It occurs that polonium is usually used when a country wants it to be known that they were behind a killing without officially acknowledging it, yet there is no real reason for Israel to want to be implicated in killing Arafat; on the other hand, there are plenty of people who'd like to implicate Israel in such a killing, and a large audience ready to believe it.


and, for the nth time, would also require them to have access to said substance in first place. Maybe Israel's gambit is that with this sort of speculation people wouldn't call its bluff.

Now, what on Earth would Iran or Russia stand to gain?

For the record i doubt that Iran has access to Polonium let alone be inclined to use it in assassination missions. Its nuclear proliferation attempts thus far have been under intense scrutiny.


You could probably get Polonium on E-bay.

A Palestinian investigator even said "this was done with polonium by Palestinian hands- who shall punished to the full extent of the law when they are caught".

(Thats among a billion other theories on his death-ranging from murdered by either arabs or by isrealis using thalium ( instead of polonium), intentional, or unintensional food poisoning,to AIDs to alchoholism to just being an overwieght overworked 75 year old guy with lousy doctors. Take your pick). Im not saying he was killed, nor whodunit if he was. But I dont see why you assume that it was Israel.

The question YOU have to answer Thomas81 is what would Israel have to gain?

Russia has less to loose than Israel, and Iran had obvious things to gain by offing Arafat. But Israel had absolutely nothing to gain by offing the aging isolated has-been leader who was more liked by Isrealies than by Palestinians by that time.

Besides I never said "Russia killed him"- I implied that the Hamas borrowed the car keys from Putin to do use the car for their own purposes. But Iran might well to have actively sought to back certain factions in Palestine by eliminating Arafat (just like they are backing factions in the Syrian war as we speak). Those factions being the more militant and more islamist and less compromising factions.

I mean seriously- you know damn well that Iran had more to gain from his death than did Israel. Not saying either country did it- but Iran had more to gain and less to loose than did Israel.

But lets say that 'access to polonium' is something unique.

Again- Israel fought Arafat since 1968- why would they wait until 2004 when the guy was niether particularly powerful nor particulary hostile to Isreali interests to off him?