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Schneekugel
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20 Mar 2014, 4:35 am

Jacoby wrote:
Russia has a legitimate claim to Crimea and the populace wants to be apart of Russia, I don't see the issue. Why shouldn't they have a right to self-determination? The government in Kiev took power in a illegal coup freeing Crimea from their union with Ukraine. People are making a stink about the 97% number but where were they when the Falklands voted 99.8% to stay with the UK? Some time it is just that clear cut, Crimea is Russian speaking and largely ethnic Russian. Yanukovych won 80% of the vote in the region in 2010, does anyone doubt that this referendum reflects the true will of the vast majority of people in the Crimea?


Was the falkland voting as well done with tanks before the frontdoor?



tern
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20 Mar 2014, 8:06 am

ruveyn wrote:
The Crimea is the new Sudatenland.

That's why we must give Ukraine back the nuclear bomb we wrongly pressurised it to abandon in 1994, and urgently, promptly, to hold the line.

Sudetenland might still have voted to join Germany if allowed a vote supervised fairly by the League of Nations, but the League should not have consented to hold such a vote given the human rights state of Germany at the time for certain minorities, and the same applies to any proposal of a UN supervised fair vote in Crimea now. It would still only be fair to do it if Russia was not oppressing any minorities. Ukraine too though, otherwise it should become a UN protectorate like Kosovo did.

Also, in the ridiculously unlikely, but theoretical, event that the Nazis had accepted internationally monitored [oops Edit: make that, internationally supervised]curbs on their human rights standards in exchange for a proper Sudeten referendum and it had joined Germany, it could have been done in a more gradual militarily safe way, closing down the Skoda arms factory and moving the Czechs' border defences to the new border before transfer, instead of the annexation serving to make its border defenceless overnight as actually happened.



AngelRho
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20 Mar 2014, 9:14 am

tern wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
The Crimea is the new Sudatenland.

That's why we must give Ukraine back the nuclear bomb we wrongly pressurised it to abandon in 1994, and urgently, promptly, to hold the line.

Agreed.



simon_says
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20 Mar 2014, 10:45 am

Putin has a serious case of little man syndrome but giving the bomb to Ukraine is not good. :lol: Anyway I think Russia took them and dismantled them. And now everyone knows: Never give up a nuclear weapon.



Jacoby
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20 Mar 2014, 11:15 am

What Stalin did to the Crimean Tatars was wrong but history doesn't happen in a vacuum. Something interesting to know is that the Crimean Khanate's entire economy for centuries was based on the slave trade in which they sold millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc. to the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East only stopping when the Russian Empire annexed it. This might seem like an obscure part of history to us but stuff like this leaves wounds that last centuries. The scars of slavery in America and the Civil War are certainly still felt in this country. People don't forget.

Considering that Ukraine is near broke and the terms of their coming IMF bailout will demand, Crimea is much better off being apart of the Russian Federation. I believe eastern Ukraine will be in full on revolt once they start feeling the pinch too, they do not accept the authority of the Maidan regime as it is.

Why would anybody want another poor borderline failed state to have the bomb? That's insane. Do you want nuclear war, do you want World War III? For what? To live out some Cold War fantasy? Maybe you should just stick to Call Of Duty. The lack of self awareness is astounding, what Russia is doing is no different that the US does on the regular and Russia hasn't even bombed any weddings or child's birthday parties, there is nos hostile occupation. This idea that we should go to war over Ukraine is a joke, NATO has outlived it's purpose. We maintain a military alliance against the Soviet Union that doesn't exist anymore and we've kept expanding it all the way up to Russia's doorstep, we even talk about putting a 'missile shield' in eastern Europe and Turkey and have the gall to say that it isn't pointed at Russia. How do you think the US would react to Russia putting nuclear weapons on it's doorstep? I think history hath shown how serious we would take that. The West has spent billions and billions of dollars meddling in the former Soviet sphere of influence over the last 20 years, this hasn't gone unnoticed and now a replenished Russia is unsurprisingly reasserting itself.

I believe in the foreign policy of Thomas Jefferson, "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none". I don't want to be dragged into war by some insignificant failed state like Ukraine or Georgia, I don't want to go tit for tat with Russia. American global hegemony is coming to an end, we're broke and we're tired. It's not our problem, we cannot police the world.



tern
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20 Mar 2014, 11:29 am

Why? As a line agauinst expansionism, and to prevent expansionism leading to war and becoming your problem.



xenon13
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20 Mar 2014, 11:49 pm

Crimea now is part of the Russian Federation. The US is mad that this was done without nuclear waste weapons being exploded as happens when the US does such things...



trollcatman
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21 Mar 2014, 12:21 am

tern wrote:
Why? As a line agauinst expansionism, and to prevent expansionism leading to war and becoming your problem.


The sanctions will only antagonize Russia further. And it'll be of no use, there's no realistic chance of Crimea going back to Ukraine, so why continue on this hopeless course of action? If they want the Russians could screw the Ukrainians even more just by cutting off all trade with them.
Also, Russia took two regions from Georgia in 2008 and despite all the protests the situation remains unchanged. In the case of Crimea, there is just no way for the Russian leadership to bow out without loss of face. Aside from that, it seems the majority of Russians and Crimeans are happy with the situation, so nothing to see really. I really have a hard time understanding the "diplomacy" of the EU/US in this case.



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21 Mar 2014, 3:44 am

Ukraine had universal service, and more than half are Russian speakers. The bases and ships taken in Crimea were made an offer, leave and go to Ukraine, or stay and join the Russian army. Half seem to have taken the offer.

The National army is half Russian. The Acting Government has formed a new National Guard, 20,000 street fighters from Kiev, and called up Ukrainian reserves. The Russian part of the defense forces will not obey them.

They will not stand by as their homes and families are occupied.

The Prosecuter from Kiev, all through the demonstrations said that "peaceful demostraters" were killing soldiers, police, using the same weapons, that at the end they used on anyone, killing 80 in a day. She returned home to Crimea, and was made Chief Prosecuter.

Other high level people are defecting in place. They do not like the Acting Government, and are keeping the ships, tanks, planes, in their hands. They will not obey the Acting Government, which is why it formed a new National Guard. I think they wear Brownshirts and carry baseball bats.

The National Guard fears the army, so Ukraine is calling for NATO troops to occupy the Russian speaking areas.

The takeover of Parliment in Kiev is not seen as legal by the citizens. Then they abolished the elected offices in the provinces and appointed their own. That is also not legal.

This is the Government they want the EU, US, NATO, to uphold. The first fight would be with the People, the Ukraine Army, and the Elected Officals.

The more than half the people who speak Russian are being called Russian Agents.

It is true, more than half the people are armed spies for Russian Rights.

Holding a free and fair election may well take troops and tanks in the streets. Ukraine troops.

The results will be a Russian speaking majority winning.

Then a very legal National Vote can be held about spliting the country along ethnic lines,

In the south and east the vote will be overwhelming, more than 80% to join Russia.

Russia has said that if NATO builds missile intercepter sites in eastern Europe, they will arm their border with short range nukes to destroy them, if they ever want to.

So who is starting Cold War 2.0?

Europe is going to pay for the economic failure of Eastern Europe. It will be a long term drain on their economy.

The USSR dumped the Eastern Block because none of them were profitable.

Russia has been taking manufactured goods in payment for gas and oil, the French have been building ships, the Germans cars, machine tools, and Russia could demand payment in Gold.

Russian pipeline gas will always be cheaper than ship delivered. Even if Europe switched suppliers, Russia can run pipelines to China.

The EU as an economic block is one thing, but as a One World Order, could be split. Some have refused to join, others could want to leave. The Baltic Block has group interests, and could live without the PIIGS.



jrjones9933
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21 Mar 2014, 3:26 pm

A Russia/China Alliance 1 + 2 can stand up to 4.



AngelRho
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21 Mar 2014, 9:16 pm

simon_says wrote:
Putin has a serious case of little man syndrome but giving the bomb to Ukraine is not good. :lol: Anyway I think Russia took them and dismantled them. And now everyone knows: Never give up a nuclear weapon.

100% agree with that last bit.

I found a VERY detailed website on building a bomb…I'll see if I can relocate it and post it here. It's an entertaining read (hint: If you don't have access to a centrifuge, enrich your uranium by putting it into buckets and swinging it around). Part of the instructions includes some helpful suggestions as to what to do with it, with particular emphasis on nuclear deterrence capabilities. It also mentions the importance of taking a blood count from time to time to monitor for cancer or radiation sickness symptoms. At a certain point, you may not live much longer; however, depending on what you intend to do with it, that may not really be that important.



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27 Mar 2014, 10:25 am

Just saw Tymoshenko is running for pres. Good for her.



Jacoby
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27 Mar 2014, 11:11 am

Yulia Tymoshenko: She's no angel(link)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RxSzSWbcxo[/youtube]

There was a reason why she was in prison,



Kraichgauer
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27 Mar 2014, 11:20 am

Jacoby wrote:
Yulia Tymoshenko: She's no angel(link)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RxSzSWbcxo[/youtube]

There was a reason why she was in prison,


While her talk about nuclear genocide is indeed disturbing, I think in all fairness, as the sovereignty of their country has been violated, and as their national pride has been insulted, perhaps a little understanding at the moment for hyperbolic word can be excused.


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simon_says
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27 Mar 2014, 1:00 pm

She's too kind. Most Americans would be less pleasant with a foreign invader who sent disguised troops and refused to acknowledge it.

Funny that she congratulated the FSB for the tap. :lol:



AngelRho
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27 Mar 2014, 4:01 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Yulia Tymoshenko: She's no angel(link)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RxSzSWbcxo[/youtube]

There was a reason why she was in prison,

What? That she was scapegoated? Her arrest was entirely political. At worst being the gas princess put her at above-normal risk for a conflict of interest. But I'm not sure exactly what could have been done differently.

She's hard-hitting. I respect that.