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LKL
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24 Mar 2014, 3:33 pm

RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
It's a tragedy of human nature that true communism, like true libertarianism or true anarchism, cannot work. The ideas sound wonderful (utopian) on their surfaces, but they rely too much on a lack of selfishness and greed that is evolutionarily unlikely. The only true eusocial organisms are those that have direct genetic benefit from being eusocial.

How does this explain primitive communism? We know we didn't always live with states or classes. In fact, most of our time on this planet was like that.

Primitive communism worked when 1)communities were small enough (<50 individuals) for individuals to police each other and 2)the members of a community were generally closely related by blood.



RushKing
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24 Mar 2014, 3:44 pm

LKL wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
It's a tragedy of human nature that true communism, like true libertarianism or true anarchism, cannot work. The ideas sound wonderful (utopian) on their surfaces, but they rely too much on a lack of selfishness and greed that is evolutionarily unlikely. The only true eusocial organisms are those that have direct genetic benefit from being eusocial.

How does this explain primitive communism? We know we didn't always live with states or classes. In fact, most of our time on this planet was like that.

Primitive communism worked when 1)communities were small enough (<50 individuals) for individuals to police each other and 2)the members of a community were generally closely related by blood.


Racism is not human nature

https://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6143/270

Anarchists in Spain and Ukraine were able to have large scale policy because of federalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism ... ganization



Last edited by RushKing on 24 Mar 2014, 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

GGPViper
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24 Mar 2014, 3:53 pm

RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
It's a tragedy of human nature that true communism, like true libertarianism or true anarchism, cannot work. The ideas sound wonderful (utopian) on their surfaces, but they rely too much on a lack of selfishness and greed that is evolutionarily unlikely. The only true eusocial organisms are those that have direct genetic benefit from being eusocial.

How does this explain primitive communism? We know we didn't always live with states or classes. In fact, most of our time on this planet was like that.

Primitive communism worked when 1)communities were small enough (<50 individuals) for individuals to police each other and 2)the members of a community were generally closely related by blood.

Racism is not human nature

https://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6143/270

However, self-interest is human nature.

And even the altruism present in human nature is insufficient to support a Communist society.

http://ggsc-web02.ist.berkeley.edu/imag ... truism.pdf



RushKing
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24 Mar 2014, 3:59 pm

GGPViper wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
It's a tragedy of human nature that true communism, like true libertarianism or true anarchism, cannot work. The ideas sound wonderful (utopian) on their surfaces, but they rely too much on a lack of selfishness and greed that is evolutionarily unlikely. The only true eusocial organisms are those that have direct genetic benefit from being eusocial.

How does this explain primitive communism? We know we didn't always live with states or classes. In fact, most of our time on this planet was like that.

Primitive communism worked when 1)communities were small enough (<50 individuals) for individuals to police each other and 2)the members of a community were generally closely related by blood.

Racism is not human nature

https://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6143/270

However, self-interest is human nature.

And even the altruism present in human nature is insufficient to support a Communist society.

http://ggsc-web02.ist.berkeley.edu/imag ... truism.pdf

Libertarian communists do not want to eliminate self interest.



Hopper
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24 Mar 2014, 3:59 pm

I would think it gets a bad name from its most prominent (self-declared) practitioners.

I can see it working, but I think power would need to be diffuse. To be bolstered with a lot of democracy. Which I think would be a good idea anyway.


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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


GGPViper
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24 Mar 2014, 4:07 pm

RushKing wrote:
Libertarian communists do not want to eliminate self interest.

What "Libertarian communists" believe (did you just put Ayn Rand and Karl Marx in the same category?) is irrelevant.

I suggest that you re-read this...

GGPViper wrote:
4. Communism is a Nirvana Fallacy.

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

A lot of people "like" communism because it sounds good. Yet people are evaluating communism on what it says on paper, and not how it will look like if one tries to implement it in the real world. Any real-life political system will look unfavourable compared to "ideal" communism, because "ideal" communism is literally a Utopia of kindness, friendship and love. I think this is why so many teenagers are attracted to communism; they lack the life experience to see that such a political utopia can never be implemented in real life.

... before creating any more meaningless political labels...



RushKing
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24 Mar 2014, 4:14 pm

GGPViper wrote:
... before creating any more meaningless political labels...

Libertarian communism is as old as Marxism. You have repeatability shown yourself to be ignorant of the subject.



GGPViper
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24 Mar 2014, 4:32 pm

RushKing wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
... before creating any more meaningless political labels...

Libertarian communism is as old as Marxism. You have repeatability shown yourself to be ignorant of the subject.

I have a Master's Degree in political science with summa cum laude grades from an internationally recognised university with two Nobel prizes to its name.

I have studied Malthus, Pareto, Arrow, Sen, Keynes, von Neumann & Morgenstern, Harsanyi, Ostrom, North, Marx, Smith, Hayek, Friedman and a legion of influential economists that you have probably never heard about.

In other words: My little finger knows more about both economics and politics than you do.



Hopper
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24 Mar 2014, 4:34 pm

GGPViper wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Libertarian communists do not want to eliminate self interest.

What "Libertarian communists" believe (did you just put Ayn Rand and Karl Marx in the same category?) is irrelevant.


Not to be That Guy, but wasn't Rand an Objectivist, not a Libertarian?


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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


RushKing
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24 Mar 2014, 4:34 pm

I don't think Marx wanted to eliminate self interest either.

If he did; why the theory of alienation?



RushKing
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24 Mar 2014, 4:42 pm

GGPViper wrote:
RushKing wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
... before creating any more meaningless political labels...

Libertarian communism is as old as Marxism. You have repeatability shown yourself to be ignorant of the subject.

I have a Master's Degree in political science with summa cum laude grades from an internationally recognised university with two Nobel prizes to its name.

I have studied Malthus, Pareto, Arrow, Sen, Keynes, von Neumann & Morgenstern, Harsanyi, Ostrom, North, Marx, Smith, Hayek, Friedman and a legion of influential economists that you have probably never heard about.

In other words: My little finger knows more about both economics and politics than you do.

Maybe there wasn't much communism in your curriculum. Or you want to deliberately lie to people here.



GGPViper
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24 Mar 2014, 4:51 pm

RushKing wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
RushKing wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
... before creating any more meaningless political labels...

Libertarian communism is as old as Marxism. You have repeatability shown yourself to be ignorant of the subject.

I have a Master's Degree in political science with summa cum laude grades from an internationally recognised university with two Nobel prizes to its name.

I have studied Malthus, Pareto, Arrow, Sen, Keynes, von Neumann & Morgenstern, Harsanyi, Ostrom, North, Marx, Smith, Hayek, Friedman and a legion of influential economists that you have probably never heard about.

In other words: My little finger knows more about both economics and politics than you do.

Maybe their wasn't much communism in your curriculum. Or you want to deliberately lie to people here.

(1) It is "there", not "their" in this particular case.
(2) The German Ideology by Karl Marx is *required reading* for anyone studying political science at my university. Not a single word ever written by Adam Smith is part of the curriculum, despite the fact that he is the most important economist of all time.. Food for thought.
(3) You seriously need to grow up.



RushKing
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24 Mar 2014, 5:24 pm

GGPViper wrote:
You seriously need to grow up.

Wtf, does that mean?

If you come in here a say something that's wrong. I will call you out on it, regardless of your shiny piece of paper. No one is a master at any subject. Everyone is a student.



GGPViper
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24 Mar 2014, 5:42 pm

RushKing wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
You seriously need to grow up.

Wtf, does that mean?

If you come in here a say something that's wrong. I will call you out on it, regardless of your shiny piece of paper. No one is a master at any subject. Everyone is a student.

But you lack even a fundamental understanding of both politics and economics.

You have a tendency to spit out numerous "theories" about why communism might work using flashy one-liners, but you lack an innate understanding about how politics and economics actually work.

You lack maturity. In five years or so, You and I may be able to have an intelligent conversation. You appear to be "below" your age from the perspective of maturity.



RushKing
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24 Mar 2014, 5:59 pm

I'm sorry I'm too "below" for you.



Tollorin
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24 Mar 2014, 5:59 pm

GGPViper wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
RushKing wrote:
LKL wrote:
It's a tragedy of human nature that true communism, like true libertarianism or true anarchism, cannot work. The ideas sound wonderful (utopian) on their surfaces, but they rely too much on a lack of selfishness and greed that is evolutionarily unlikely. The only true eusocial organisms are those that have direct genetic benefit from being eusocial.

How does this explain primitive communism? We know we didn't always live with states or classes. In fact, most of our time on this planet was like that.

Primitive communism worked when 1)communities were small enough (<50 individuals) for individuals to police each other and 2)the members of a community were generally closely related by blood.

Racism is not human nature

https://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6143/270

However, self-interest is human nature.

And even the altruism present in human nature is insufficient to support a Communist society.

http://ggsc-web02.ist.berkeley.edu/imag ... truism.pdf

Self-interest is a incomplete view of human nature, generosity and being selflesss is also part of human nature; I go as far to say that everything we do is part of human nature and to say that in many case the interest of the group (tribe) is stronger part of human nature that self-interest. (If not why peoples would sacrifice as much as they're live for the interest of what they consider their "tribe")