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starvingartist
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13 May 2014, 2:37 pm

just seems like someone needed to state this explicitly somewhere on this forum.

i'm really tired of having the same conversation with people over and over again about how i'm a reasonable feminist who does NOT advocate for the enslavement of men and so are all the other feminists i know. maybe i should get it tattooed on my forehead or something.



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13 May 2014, 2:47 pm

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i'm a reasonable feminist who does NOT advocate for the enslavement of men and so are all the other feminists i know.


There are feminists who advocate for the enslavement of men? I went to an all-girls college in which feminist theory was automatically part of every class. I don't remember ever reading about a group of feminists with that goal.

For the record, I'm a feminist. I believe women should have equal access to education and political office and work in general. I believe it's wrong for men to beat their wives. I believe women should have some choice in whether they become pregnant and how many babies they have. I believe I liked to play with both barbies and trucks, my Easy Bake Oven, and my Supersoaker when I was a little girl, and I believe other girls should be allowed to like those things too. All of those beliefs, in fact any of those beliefs, make me a feminist, and I'm not ashamed at all to call myself one, even though calling yourself a feminist has somehow recently become worse than calling yourself a foul language name.



1401b
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13 May 2014, 3:35 pm

starvingartist wrote:
just seems like someone needed to state this explicitly somewhere on this forum.

i'm really tired of having the same conversation with people over and over again about how i'm a reasonable feminist who does NOT advocate for the enslavement of men and so are all the other feminists i know. maybe i should get it tattooed on my forehead or something.


This sounds like you're saying that you are an unreasonable feminist, who does advocate for the enslavement of men.
It seems unlikely, to me, that this was your intent.

What does "Feminist" mean for you?


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starvingartist
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13 May 2014, 3:54 pm

1401b wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
just seems like someone needed to state this explicitly somewhere on this forum.

i'm really tired of having the same conversation with people over and over again about how i'm a reasonable feminist who does NOT advocate for the enslavement of men and so are all the other feminists i know. maybe i should get it tattooed on my forehead or something.


This sounds like you're saying that you are an unreasonable feminist, who does advocate for the enslavement of men.
It seems unlikely, to me, that this was your intent.

What does "Feminist" mean for you?


it means that every time i identify myself as a feminist i am told i need to more publicly denounce radical elements that are apparently drowning out the rest of us reasonable feminists who just think people should have the same rights regardless of their reproductive junk. feminism to me means what it means to the large majority of feminists (male and female)--that women and men should be considered equal as human beings under the law and in society. i don't hate men--i love men. i don't think women are superior and should have all the power, or any of the other weird s**t people seem to think most feminists espouse. i think women and men are equally capable--of being fantastic people, or of being raging as*holes.



1401b
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13 May 2014, 4:44 pm

It is Feminism to believe that people should get equal pay for equal work (value for value), that everybody should have the same lawful rights and protections??
This is Feminism?


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starvingartist
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13 May 2014, 4:51 pm

1401b wrote:
It is Feminism to believe that people should get equal pay for equal work (value for value), that everybody should have the same lawful rights and protections??
This is Feminism?


that's always been my understanding of it, yes.



1401b
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13 May 2014, 5:59 pm

starvingartist wrote:
1401b wrote:
It is Feminism to believe that people should get equal pay for equal work (value for value), that everybody should have the same lawful rights and protections??
This is Feminism?


that's always been my understanding of it, yes.

That can't be right!
The word itself implies gender specificity!

What I stated is nothing more than simplified logic, only fearful and damaged people espouse anything other than rational logic* tempered with safety.

Why would anyone add a name, word or phrase without adding any specificity? Especially in this case where it's not even remotely guy logic or girl logic.
Why call it Feminism when it is simply appropriate? It makes it sound segregative, combative, divisive.

I'm not disagreeing with you BTW, I'm just a bit confused.
I've never paid much attn to feminism, frankly because anyone saying less pay for equal work is a moron, as is anyone saying men should be gelded painfully, then murdered.
I've never seen anything controversial in the subject, I've only ever seen reasonable logic and/or insane militantism, never any middle ground to actually argue or "compromise" over.

I don't see how any sane person could actually take a stand regarding Feminism -if it is simply the above- because I don't understand how there could possibly be two sides to this idea except for people needing lots of therapy.

There must be something more to it to call it Feminism.
Doesn't there?



*(I don't mean Vulcan logic, there are almost always rational logical reasons for emotions even)


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Schneekugel
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14 May 2014, 3:23 am

1401b wrote:
It is Feminism to believe that people should get equal pay for equal work (value for value), that everybody should have the same lawful rights and protections??
This is Feminism?


Yoppah. I am a female engineer, not because I wanted to have by all means a "male" job, but simply because I made a "skill and gifts" test when I was 13, and it showed that my best talents are in rather technical skills. So I simply went for my talents. Because of my family being rather poor and my father having no son and my sister being a bit more "barbish" then me ^^, we had to do lots of work on our house, garden and car ourselves and I was the one that got more often told to help my father with that, while my sister helped more often my mother with her work. My partner lived with his divorced mom and they were rather wealthy, so they called worker for many stuff we did ourselves, on the other side his mum was an engaged hobby-cook. In the ends it leaded us to me doing stuff like me doing stuff like cleaning pipes in our house, while he often is responsible for more sensible cooking parts as grilling steaks, because he is the better cook. (I cook as well, but he is better: I do good steaks, he does perfect steaks. ^^)

We simply accept our talents as they are and do not give much thoughts about it, if that is normal or not. Who is whyever better suited to do a task is the one doing it. As example when I needed to drill some long holes into cement, I simply explained him what to care about and how to handle the drilling machine, simply because of his bigger strength he was more suited to do that. I have no prob accepting, that he is physical stronger then me, so that certain tasks can be better done by him.

Long post shortly: I think my partner and I are both feminist, not caring for prejudices and what other think.

However: Often when there were discussion about feminism in my country, there was as well a certain woman involved who was very active in the 60ies when feminism started. To have an oppinion about that woman, I decided to read one of her books. Because of that I know now, that I am a normal feminist, while that woman is an radical feminist, that I dont agree with on many topics. I am aware, that when this woman started to with her activism, times were completely different. Marital rape was allowed, woman were not allowed to have own separate bank accounts without permittance of their partners, woman were not allowed to have a job without their partners permittance.... So I do understand to a certain points, why her thoughts are so more radical then mine, because she was really born in a times, where she was forced to fight to become treated as a normal human being.

But for me its similar to second worldwar. Grandpa generation that had to fight against each other, still often have prejudices and hate against each others, out of their experiences. Luckily the newer generations dont have all that bad experiences with each other, so they can start on a much better point. :)



cannotthinkoff
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14 May 2014, 10:01 pm

It is truly appalling what men in this forum and generally nowadays are thinking that feminism is. Honestly, makes me hate them as a whole group, because they are showing themselves as ignorant sexist uneducated immature bunch. On the other hand, maybe Americans really are as uneducated as media portrays them to be?

There is an elementary definition of feminism in any dictionary you like. If men cannot differentiate between the use of the word, then well maybe they should be enslaved and extinct. Really, this ignorance makes me quite mad because that right there is basic roots of sexism. Also it undermines feminist achievements and belittles real issues women face. Honestly. Appalling. And the women who say "oh, I am NOT a feminist". These people, what are they even talking about. My god, why should I ever explain anyone what feminism is? Has it gotten that bad over there, in US? I HATE men who don't even care to find out what feminism actually is and why it's important before they pass on their judgements.



starvingartist
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14 May 2014, 10:24 pm

cannotthinkoff wrote:
It is truly appalling what men in this forum and generally nowadays are thinking that feminism is. Honestly, makes me hate them as a whole group, because they are showing themselves as ignorant sexist uneducated immature bunch. On the other hand, maybe Americans really are as uneducated as media portrays them to be?

There is an elementary definition of feminism in any dictionary you like. If men cannot differentiate between the use of the word, then well maybe they should be enslaved and extinct. Really, this ignorance makes me quite mad because that right there is basic roots of sexism. Also it undermines feminist achievements and belittles real issues women face. Honestly. Appalling. And the women who say "oh, I am NOT a feminist". These people, what are they even talking about. My god, why should I ever explain anyone what feminism is? Has it gotten that bad over there, in US? I HATE men who don't even care to find out what feminism actually is and why it's important before they pass on their judgements.


i really understand (and share much of) your frustration, but don't let it make you hate all of them. then the douchebag-dudebros get what they want: another "man-hating feminist" to "prove" their point. just keep putting the douchey ones in their place, but try to remember there are some decent guys out there who do get it--i happen to know a few myself.



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15 May 2014, 7:07 am

This kind of reminds me of a conversation with a guy at work. Can't remember how we got into it, but I was telling him that my Dad is a feminist and his eyes almost popped out of his head, he couldn't get his head round how a man could possibly be a feminist.

And it amazes me, despite all the articles written by feminists that have absolutely no mention of wanting to be superior to men, that some guys out there still don't understand that a feminist is someone who cares about injustice and doesn't want to see people suffer due to being judged on account of their gender.

I think that this is a good article from the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/09/not-a-feminist-move-on-men-women

Quote:
Most of the feminists I know care about how gender inequality affects men. Of course they do ? they're egalitarians. And some also work on male equality issues. But feminism is a movement that seeks to achieve equal rights for women. This focus is necessary, because we live in a world of historically and culturally inscribed female disadvantage.


This is an article written by a male feminist:
http://www.theguardian.com/education/mortarboard/2014/feb/20/males-student-feminism-university
Quote:
Male feminists like me just want to support their fellow human beings in the fight for equality



legokitten
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15 May 2014, 7:31 am

I think there is a psychology to the reason or way the arguments are stated to a feminist by a person who is anti-woman. I say person because I am sometimes shocked to see some of the worst offenders can be women. Women who shame other women.

I've found that I avoid scenes where those types congregate and I rarely have the discussion anymore. You know that one where I tell the woman hating man how wonderful men are and that I really love them just because I dare to think of my self at all. I hear less annoying things. I am less stressed.



hanyo
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16 May 2014, 9:09 am

cannotthinkoff wrote:
It is truly appalling what men in this forum and generally nowadays are thinking that feminism is. Honestly, makes me hate them as a whole group, because they are showing themselves as ignorant sexist uneducated immature bunch.


I feel that way about people in general. All feminism means is that women should have equal rights and not be discriminated against solely because of their gender. I don't see how someone can not be for that unless they are a man that wants women to stay home and cook and clean and pop out babies or a woman that just wants to cook and clean and pop out babies.

I have a friend who once told me that her husband doesn't like feminists. I hope he realized he was wrong since then since what does he think his wife is? She went to college and works outside the home and votes. Someone who is truly antifeminist surely wouldn't approve of a woman doing such things.

You can't judge a whole group by the most radical minority you can find. That's like me saying I hate all Christians because of the Westboro Baptist Church.



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17 May 2014, 1:23 am

I can actually identify with this, as it's a pretty familiar tactic to me, taking the most extreme and unpleasant members of a group and portraying them as if they're representative, like the media always managing to find the craziest fundamentalist at the Tea Party Rally, or the smelliest hippy at the OWS event to interview. Or, ironically enough, like feminists themselves promoting particular subgroups, such as certain internet comment sections or fraternities, as if they're representative of men as a whole. Kinda sucks when they shoe's on the other foot, doesn't it? I get this one pretty regularly on a number of fronts, from Ted Nugent and Alex Jones being held up as typical gun owners to Ayn Rand quoting Objectivists representing all of libertarianism to, yes, neanderthal frat-boys being put forward as the personification of men; it's a bogus tactic, and one I wish more people were aware of when it wasn't being done to them personally.

However, feminism does have it's share of self inflicted wounds, from the obsession with "privilege checking" to the jargon and politically correct scolding to the vicious infighting and backstabbing so rampant on social media, the perpetual outrage and hair trigger taking of offense, the dogma, etc, doesn't present an entirely inviting picture of the movement. Unfortunately, even if the mentioned behaviors are perpetrated by a minority of feminists, the dynamics of the internet make them pervasive enough to become the stereotype, and there are enough actual feminist out there who conform to it that it is an easily reinforced one, as can be seen in the myriad L&D and PPR feminism threads. My own experience certainly reflects this, as I've been dismissed simply because of my race and/or gender, or having used a common word or phrase that has been deemed verboten in feminist circles, and as a white, gender-normative cismale, I don't feel that engaging with the type of feminist who hurls those words around as pejoratives is particularly worth my time, even though I have a better understanding of the underlying issues than most; it's much more likely that others will simply write off the whole bunch.

In short, the movement has a real image problem, one that won't be solved simply by blaming the ignorance of outside observers for their failure to understand all the nuances and schisms of the various schools, especially when feminists themselves often end up at loggerheads over minutia and such.

Here are some of the sources I've used to form my opinions on feminism, in addition to my own personal experiences with feminists here and elsewhere:

http://www.thenation.com/article/178140 ... itter-wars
http://www.salon.com/2014/01/31/the_fig ... he_v_word/
http://reason.com/archives/2014/02/02/i ... r-on-women
http://www.salon.com/2013/09/26/study_e ... s_partner/
http://www.xojane.com/issues/why-you-ll ... -mansplain
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 21106.html


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17 May 2014, 5:13 am

Dox47 you make some good points there. There's an old English saying that goes "too many cooks spoil the broth, which I think applies here. I think those of us who are moderate feminists are trying to counteract the extreme nitpicking like "all men sit with their legs too far apart on public transport and don't make room for women," which is of course just complaining for the sake of complaining.

Most of us just want to be treated with respect and we are trying to get people to see our side of the story. We also like men and want them to be treated with respect too. But there are things that we have come up against as women that we want to eradicate for future generations. Especially when some men make sweeping generalizations about us as a group and say that all women are only after men with fast cars and money. Or all women are overly emotional and you can't reason with them. That gets my goat because I am a very analytical, logical kind of woman and I feel like the kind of men who have that mindset don't see me for who I am.

Personally I'm not obsessed with "fighting the patriarchy" as is so often mentioned on the internet, I just want women to be treated as individuals with qualities and skills that can be appreciated rather than just be dismissed as silly women. I want us all to live in harmony and respect each other.

I'm also and advocate for anti-racism due to the rascim I've experienced in my life. I see my seeking respect for women as being along the same lines. I'm not trying to say that those from an Indian gene pool like me are better than anyone else, I simply don't want people to dismiss me for being different to them. That is all.



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17 May 2014, 5:24 am

I feel it's an unending struggle.

You support feminism? ==> You want to castrate little boys.
You support feminism? ==> You want me on a leash
You support feminism? ==> WHAT ABOUT ME?
You support feminism? ==> You MUST hate men. You awful being!
You support feminism? ==> So you think <completely out of context taken feminist quote, seemingly very bizarre and extreme until you know where it comes from>???


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