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legokitten
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20 May 2014, 12:23 pm

Most US courts have, or are moving to the new 50/50 model where the child floats between two permanent homes. There is no benefit for either parent financially or otherwise. Maternal custody has been on the decline since the 80s but I'm sure you ladies here in the Women's Discussion are aware of that.



CommanderKeen
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20 May 2014, 7:39 pm

The term feminist should be faded out in my opinion and replaced. Feminism implies gender specificness, as stated earlier on this thread. Feminism gets a bad reputation, since a lot of females use it as an excuse for self entitlement. Not all of them obviously, but enough to make men cringe. I'll use an example from my own life. When I was with my ex she identified as a feminist and wanted to make all the decisions in the relationship. This even got in the way of sex. She wouldn't do what I wanted, even though I was willing to do what she wanted and she made me feel guilty about my own sexual desires. She told her friend about this and her friend who has stated she hates men, told me not to expect anything in return and to just do what she wanted. Obviously the relationship wasn't equal. Now does this mean, that all women that identify themselves as feminist like this? Of course not, but there a large number of them. Alot of females that claim to be feminist, just do so because they really do have an underlining hatred towards men. That is simply the truth. That doesn't mean a true feminist really hates men, that just means a certain group of females use to term to feel self entitled.



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21 May 2014, 3:23 pm

^It depends on what you wanted to do and what her issues with it were. For instance, there are things I would categorically refuse to do in bed because they would cause me to have a panic attack (or because I just find them disgusting and I don't want to be disgusted when having sex.) I am quite a sexually open-minded person, by the way - but I have very definite limits that I don't enjoy testing (for personal reasons.) I'm just lucky that I have a partner that has the same sexual tastes as me.

You never had to do everything she wanted to do, either - no-one has to do anything, especially if it makes them very uncomfortable. The reasons why someone won't do something are important. Was she really like that out of a dislike of men, or did she have other reasons? She might not have told you what her true reasons were, so it's not your fault, but I don't think it's right to blame her behaviour on some misinterpretation of feminism.


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CommanderKeen
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21 May 2014, 4:30 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
^It depends on what you wanted to do and what her issues with it were. For instance, there are things I would categorically refuse to do in bed because they would cause me to have a panic attack (or because I just find them disgusting and I don't want to be disgusted when having sex.) I am quite a sexually open-minded person, by the way - but I have very definite limits that I don't enjoy testing (for personal reasons.) I'm just lucky that I have a partner that has the same sexual tastes as me.

You never had to do everything she wanted to do, either - no-one has to do anything, especially if it makes them very uncomfortable. The reasons why someone won't do something are important. Was she really like that out of a dislike of men, or did she have other reasons? She might not have told you what her true reasons were, so it's not your fault, but I don't think it's right to blame her behaviour on some misinterpretation of feminism.

I wasn't in fact my point was she and her friend were misinterpreting feminism. There is a lot more to this story I don't feel like sharing in the forum. She did say she was willing to do what I wanted, but I had to wear a certain cosplay suit and have my hair a certain way and all this other stuff. She manipulated me and was mean the whole time. In fact the nicer I was to her, the meaner and more manipulative she became.



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21 May 2014, 5:26 pm

CommanderKeen wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
^It depends on what you wanted to do and what her issues with it were. For instance, there are things I would categorically refuse to do in bed because they would cause me to have a panic attack (or because I just find them disgusting and I don't want to be disgusted when having sex.) I am quite a sexually open-minded person, by the way - but I have very definite limits that I don't enjoy testing (for personal reasons.) I'm just lucky that I have a partner that has the same sexual tastes as me.

You never had to do everything she wanted to do, either - no-one has to do anything, especially if it makes them very uncomfortable. The reasons why someone won't do something are important. Was she really like that out of a dislike of men, or did she have other reasons? She might not have told you what her true reasons were, so it's not your fault, but I don't think it's right to blame her behaviour on some misinterpretation of feminism.

I wasn't in fact my point was she and her friend were misinterpreting feminism. There is a lot more to this story I don't feel like sharing in the forum. She did say she was willing to do what I wanted, but I had to wear a certain cosplay suit and have my hair a certain way and all this other stuff. She manipulated me and was mean the whole time. In fact the nicer I was to her, the meaner and more manipulative she became.


Oh ok, looks like she was generally an unpleasant. manipulative person.

Feminists have had to fight hard (and are still fighting) for bodily autonomy and the right to refuse unwanted sex acts and she is ruining it all.,


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21 May 2014, 5:53 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Feminists have had to fight hard (and are still fighting) for bodily autonomy and the right to refuse unwanted sex acts and she is ruining it all.,


When I read the hysterectomy forum I'm on it's really sad how many women on there are pressured to have sex that they don't want due to things like low libido, pain, or still being post op and healing and not released by the doctor for sex yet. On that made me really sad was a woman that said "if it was up to me I wouldn't be having any sex at all". Unless it's rape how is it not up to her? More rarely saw posts from women that want sex but the man doesn't want to for fear of hurting them, one after the woman experienced the rare complication of vaginal cuff dehiscence.



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22 May 2014, 2:27 am

1401b wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
1401b wrote:
It is Feminism to believe that people should get equal pay for equal work (value for value), that everybody should have the same lawful rights and protections??
This is Feminism?


that's always been my understanding of it, yes.

That can't be right!
The word itself implies gender specificity!

What I stated is nothing more than simplified logic, only fearful and damaged people espouse anything other than rational logic* tempered with safety.

Why would anyone add a name, word or phrase without adding any specificity? Especially in this case where it's not even remotely guy logic or girl logic.
Why call it Feminism when it is simply appropriate? It makes it sound segregative, combative, divisive.

I'm not disagreeing with you BTW, I'm just a bit confused.
I've never paid much attn to feminism, frankly because anyone saying less pay for equal work is a moron, as is anyone saying men should be gelded painfully, then murdered.
I've never seen anything controversial in the subject, I've only ever seen reasonable logic and/or insane militantism, never any middle ground to actually argue or "compromise" over.

I don't see how any sane person could actually take a stand regarding Feminism -if it is simply the above- because I don't understand how there could possibly be two sides to this idea except for people needing lots of therapy.

There must be something more to it to call it Feminism.
Doesn't there?



*(I don't mean Vulcan logic, there are almost always rational logical reasons for emotions even)


Feminism used to be called "Women's Liberation" or "Women's Lib" for short. Yes, really. It started getting big in the early 70's. Of course the Suffragettes were early feminists or women's libbers if you prefer, but they were only wanting voting rights. Which they got. After that the status quo stayed pretty much the same until WWII when all the men were off at war and the women had to go out to work en masse. They did jobs that women hadn't done before, factories and such. Women who had never had to go to work, did have to go to work. Even women who were financially secure had to go to work because somebody had to do the jobs because the men were gone. After the war when the men came home expecting their women to come back home too, lots didn't want to. Many wanted to have a career, which until then had been solely for "old maids" and also solely in certain female professions like teaching and nursing. More and more women entered the work force over the years and by the early 70's there was the idea of the "career woman" which was sneered at by quite a lot of people, because women were demanding actual careers instead of just a job that would help make ends meet along with their husbands career.

When the Equal Rights Ammendment came around, the movement was basically started around it. Many people thought it was wrong to ask for equal pay, and also wrong to ask for jobs higher up in management because "men needed them to support their families". This is what started it all. I remember when I was little, in the want ads there was a listing for jobs for Ladies and jobs for Men. Really. There were glass ceilings that just weren't broken. You just didn't give certain jobs to women, those were reserved for men.

Lots of cultural things came about during that time that were related. Some women stopped wearing bras and burned them like guys used to do their draft cards because they said that men don't have to wear bras and boobs are natural so why should women have to. The use of the term "Ms" rather than Miss or Mrs came about too because Mr doesn't let anybody know if you are married or not and many felt it was sexist for women to have to let someone know just by signing our names. Abortion got caught up with feminism in many people's minds as well, as did birth control for unmarried women because it gave women the power to decide about their own sex lives and the outcomes of them. It didn't mean anymore that if you had sex you had to stay home and raise children. It gave women the freedom to have sex the way men had it before then.

My mother was one of those women's libbers. She divorced my dad when I was a baby and broke a lot of glass ceilings in nursing. She was the first female director of nursing at a for profit hospital in our area back then. Oddly enough, her best friend from nursing school (who was a nun) was also a women's libber. She ended up as the first female Chancelor of a Dioscese down here. Thats a job that usually goes to a priest, not a nun. (she was against abortion though, although my mother wasn't)

I suppose feminism started being considered the radical kind when once we all got equal pay for equal work and people stopped thinking there were jobs women just couldn't do (except those requiring certain stronger physical attributes - which is logical and not sexist) and some of the women in the movement started thinking superiority rather than equality. Some also wanted throw the baby out with the bathwater and do away with any kind of gender based manners and courtesy leftover from the time before equality (opening doors, lighting cigarettes, standing up when a lady walks in, etc). Many of those girls said it made them feel looked down on for a man to do that for them because they were female. I honestly think they felt that way because they didn't see what it was actually like when we were actually looked down on because we were female.

We do have equality now, and yes there are plenty of people around who do think men and women have certain set roles that shouldn't be crossed, but the difference is that's how those people think, not what society dictates. It certainly doesn't hurt me one bit for a man to hold the door open for me or offer to change my tire or hold my coat for me, etc. It's manners. While those things were done all the time back during the days when we couldn't get but a few jobs and our husbands had the last word, that doesn't change the times we live in and it doesn't mean the guy who is holding the door, etc actually thinks we should be home barefoot and pregnant.

I'm a housewife but that's by choice. I've had quite a few of the radical feminist types tell me that I'm spitting in the faces of the women who fought for our equality by not going out to work, but what they seem to forget is that feminism is about choices. Having the choice to have a career and the chance to work up to management and be paid the same as men, and the choice about whether or not to have kids or how man, etc. To lots of those types, the only choice we have is the choice to make the choice they want us to and not any other one. I'm definately a feminist, but certainly not a radical one.

I don't know when they started calling it feminism, I know it was back during the 70's at some point, but it all started out as "women's lib" and simply wanted to be paid the same as a guy doing the same work and be given the chance to advance beyond bringing coffee and typing and wiping butts.


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22 May 2014, 2:59 pm

Schneekugel wrote:
billiscool wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
what i was asking is whether you think women and men should have equal rights and treatment under the law (that's how i would define "mild" feminism or egalitarianism, if you like that term better).


Sure,but most feminist would hate true equality.
So women should have equal jail time as men.
Women should pay for dinner equal amount of times.
Women should get child custody half the time.
Women should do equally hard work,equal hours as men.

when comes to it,feminist don't want to have true equality
as men.


You mean all of that stuff, thats already pretty normal in more feminist western europe, but still struggles in outdated macho USA? Has it ever occured to you, that the more outdated an society is and still think in terms of "man = moneyearner", "woman = childcare" the more outdated laws are about child custody?

What do you think supports unequal child custody laws more: An society thinking its the womans job to raise the kids, or an society thinking its the parents job to raise the kids?


Actually, it used to be that men were typically given custody of the kids during a divorce. The idea is that the children were his property, and therefore he had to provide for them. That was until Caroline Norton, a prominent feminist in her day, implimented the "Tender Years Doctrine", which basically says that its "in the best interests of the child" to stay with the mother based on the absurd notion that children need their mothers more than their fathers, which is why the current system tends to favor women as carers than men.

SO while it helped women get custody of their kids, it really shot dudes in the foot, but especially their children. So, this is basically a case of good intentions leading to really horrid ideas. In other words, feminists need to own this, acknowledge their role in solving the problem and actually solve it.



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22 May 2014, 4:52 pm

i feel like this thread needs this link:

Jezebel - Escaping the Friendzone: The story of a former right-wing MRA

and this video:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTvSfeCRxe8[/youtube]

because we are all on the same side--the human side.



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23 May 2014, 1:48 am

This is the kind of stuff I was talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JA4EPRbWhQ
I don't agree with everything this guy says, but he's spot on in this case.