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pawelk1986
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19 Jul 2014, 5:28 am

I always wondered why the German state as it was called, it is a bit far-fetched, what the Germans have in common with the Roman Empire, which disappeared a few centuries before Germany amounted to an independent state entity:-)



naturalplastic
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19 Jul 2014, 12:51 pm

I believe that the question you are asking is this: "Why was something that was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire, called "the Holy Roman Empire?".

That's a good question.

The Germanic barbarian tribes assaulted the borders of the actual Roman Empire, and finnally the western half of the empire (the half that contained the city of Rome itsself) collapsed shortly before AD 500 starting the Dark Ages.

The eastern half endured for another 1000 years, but morphed into the Greek speaking Byzantine Empire.

The various barbarian tribes fought over the ruins of rome and its western lands for three centuries until 800 AD when the Franks managed to kick enough ass to momentarily control the heartland of western europe (modern Germany, Italy, France, and other countries). The Pope in Rome crowned the Frankish ruler, Charlemagne, as "Holy Roman Emperor" to sanctify the new found order in the west. The order didnt last long though. Charlemagne's empire fell apart in a generation or two. The western part his Frankish empire became the kingdom of France ( a more-or-less functioning actual country). But what is now Germany, Italy, Switzerland, and the Low Countries, became a loose confederation hundreds of tiny feuding microstates (each tinier than modern Luxembourg, or Rhode Island). A geopolitcal swamp.But all of these microstates maintained the fiction that they were all part of some large Christian version of the old pagan Roman Empire even though they were anything but a unified state like the old Roman Empire at its hieght. Italy and Germany didnt even function as unified nations until the late 19th Centurey.

So blame the name on that Pope who crowned Charlemagne way back when.

Next question: why is non British woodwind instrument called "an English horn" when it is niether English, nor a horn?

Anyone care to answer?



Aspiewordsmith
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19 Jul 2014, 1:28 pm

I thought the nucleus of the Frankish territories those areas of the Western half of the Roman Empire that were conquered by the Merovingians during the 5th centuries. These Merovingians were a Salian Frankish dynasty that Ruled the country called France after the ancestors of the Dutch people. After the consolidation of Frankish territories and the Passing of Merovingian to Carolingian rule in the 8th century. Also in the nucleus of that used to be ancient Gaul a language shift from an ancestor language of the Dutch language that being Frankish or Old Low Franconian to Gallo Romance which was a Celtic form of Pidgin Latin thay would beocme the French language. Also the Roman Catholic church which replaced the local Italian gods those identified with the planets over 100 years before had unquestionable power as well and these Franks soon converted to Catholicism from Odinism. So by the time Charlemagne was crowned Emperor of the West in 800 AD had territories which covered France Germany, benelux countries Austria parts of the Czech republic and Northern Italy. Most of these adopted and spoke Latin so roman in that way because they spoke Latin which b 700 AD was well on the way to evolving into Romance Languages and Holy due to alegiance to the Roman Catholic church. Of course The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy or Roman because that is when the Dark Ages began and from the 300 AD the christians began to suppress innovation and science That was not holy and it was founded by the Franks who were the ancestors of the Dutch and hence a Germanic people and not an Italic people like Romans were. These Gemanic people including the Franks, vandals, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Saxons, Jutes, Angles and Frisians.

Also when a Frankish tribal chief or a King died then his territory would be split between his surviving offspring and so the Frankish Empire split into numourous Germanic kingdoms the beginnings of modern Europe. :idea:



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19 Jul 2014, 1:51 pm

Aspiewordsmith wrote:
I thought the nucleus of the Frankish territories those areas of the Western half of the Roman Empire that were conquered by the Merovingians during the 5th centuries. These Merovingians were a Salian Frankish dynasty that Ruled the country called France after the ancestors of the Dutch people. After the consolidation of Frankish territories and the Passing of Merovingian to Carolingian rule in the 8th century. Also in the nucleus of that used to be ancient Gaul a language shift from an ancestor language of the Dutch language that being Frankish or Old Low Franconian to Gallo Romance which was a Celtic form of Pidgin Latin thay would beocme the French language. Also the Roman Catholic church which replaced the local Italian gods those identified with the planets over 100 years before had unquestionable power as well and these Franks soon converted to Catholicism from Odinism. So by the time Charlemagne was crowned Emperor of the West in 800 AD had territories which covered France Germany, benelux countries Austria parts of the Czech republic and Northern Italy. Most of these adopted and spoke Latin so roman in that way because they spoke Latin which b 700 AD was well on the way to evolving into Romance Languages and Holy due to alegiance to the Roman Catholic church. Of course The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy or Roman because that is when the Dark Ages began and from the 300 AD the christians began to suppress innovation and science That was not holy and it was founded by the Franks who were the ancestors of the Dutch and hence a Germanic people and not an Italic people like Romans were. These Gemanic people including the Franks, vandals, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Saxons, Jutes, Angles and Frisians.

Also when a Frankish tribal chief or a King died then his territory would be split between his surviving offspring and so the Frankish Empire split into numourous Germanic kingdoms the beginnings of modern Europe. :idea:


It should be noted that while the Salian Franks were ancestors of the Dutch, Flemish, and in part the people of north west France, the Ripuarian Franks of Germany in the Rhine valley and eastward came under the linguistic influence of the Alemanni/Swabian tribes who they had conquered and in part displaced. This gave rise to middle and high Franconian dialects spoken even today in Germany's western and middle regions (Hesse, Rhineland palatinate, and the North Rhine region), as well as south into the Rhine-Neckar region (north Baden-Wurttemberg), and east into the river Main region (northwest Bavaria), and German speaking regions of France such as northern Alsace and Lorain, and in Franconian German speaking parts of Belgium. Later in the Middle Ages, descendants of both Salian and Ripuarian Franks poured out of Flanders, the Rhineland, and the region of the Main to colonize the newly conquered Slavic lands to the east. Later during the Reformation era, Luther's German language Bible, which contained both Franconian and Thuringian influences gave rise to united Upper Saxon, Thuringian, and Silesian dialects, and was the basis of standard German.
It should be noted that while the Merovingian dynasty were Salian Franks, the Carolingian dynasty which Charlemagne belonged to were of Ripuarian origin. Chances are, Charlemagne had been raised with what became middle Franconian German.
Sorry for having diarrhea of the typing fingers, but having ancestors from north Baden-Wurttemberg and Upper Saxony, this is one of my Aspie obsessions. :lol:


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Aspiewordsmith
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20 Jul 2014, 2:02 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Aspiewordsmith wrote:
I thought the nucleus of the Frankish territories those areas of the Western half of the Roman Empire that were conquered by the Merovingians during the 5th centuries. These Merovingians were a Salian Frankish dynasty that Ruled the country called France after the ancestors of the Dutch people. After the consolidation of Frankish territories and the Passing of Merovingian to Carolingian rule in the 8th century. Also in the nucleus of that used to be ancient Gaul a language shift from an ancestor language of the Dutch language that being Frankish or Old Low Franconian to Gallo Romance which was a Celtic form of Pidgin Latin thay would beocme the French language. Also the Roman Catholic church which replaced the local Italian gods those identified with the planets over 100 years before had unquestionable power as well and these Franks soon converted to Catholicism from Odinism. So by the time Charlemagne was crowned Emperor of the West in 800 AD had territories which covered France Germany, benelux countries Austria parts of the Czech republic and Northern Italy. Most of these adopted and spoke Latin so roman in that way because they spoke Latin which b 700 AD was well on the way to evolving into Romance Languages and Holy due to alegiance to the Roman Catholic church. Of course The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy or Roman because that is when the Dark Ages began and from the 300 AD the christians began to suppress innovation and science That was not holy and it was founded by the Franks who were the ancestors of the Dutch and hence a Germanic people and not an Italic people like Romans were. These Gemanic people including the Franks, vandals, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Saxons, Jutes, Angles and Frisians.

Also when a Frankish tribal chief or a King died then his territory would be split between his surviving offspring and so the Frankish Empire split into numourous Germanic kingdoms the beginnings of modern Europe. :idea:


It should be noted that while the Salian Franks were ancestors of the Dutch, Flemish, and in part the people of north west France, the Ripuarian Franks of Germany in the Rhine valley and eastward came under the linguistic influence of the Alemanni/Swabian tribes who they had conquered and in part displaced. This gave rise to middle and high Franconian dialects spoken even today in Germany's western and middle regions (Hesse, Rhineland palatinate, and the North Rhine region), as well as south into the Rhine-Neckar region (north Baden-Wurttemberg), and east into the river Main region (northwest Bavaria), and German speaking regions of France such as northern Alsace and Lorain, and in Franconian German speaking parts of Belgium. Later in the Middle Ages, descendants of both Salian and Ripuarian Franks poured out of Flanders, the Rhineland, and the region of the Main to colonize the newly conquered Slavic lands to the east. Later during the Reformation era, Luther's German language Bible, which contained both Franconian and Thuringian influences gave rise to united Upper Saxon, Thuringian, and Silesian dialects, and was the basis of standard German.
It should be noted that while the Merovingian dynasty were Salian Franks, the Carolingian dynasty which Charlemagne belonged to were of Ripuarian origin. Chances are, Charlemagne had been raised with what became middle Franconian German.
Sorry for having diarrhea of the typing fingers, but having ancestors from north Baden-Wurttemberg and Upper Saxony, this is one of my Aspie obsessions. :lol:



Aspiewordsmith
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20 Jul 2014, 2:08 pm

I did not know that Charlemagne was not a Salian but a Ripurarian Frank and these also formed the necleus of the modern German State and language. That is something new I learned. I am an aspie with an interest in history so I would have learned this from an Anglocentric point of view and so would have learned more about the migration of Germans and Dutch people who founded England and the fall of the house of Wessex in 1066. But I am also interested in European History especially classical and early Medieval from about 476 AD to about 1066.



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20 Jul 2014, 3:08 pm

Aspiewordsmith wrote:
I did not know that Charlemagne was not a Salian but a Ripurarian Frank and these also formed the necleus of the modern German State and language. That is something new I learned. I am an aspie with an interest in history so I would have learned this from an Anglocentric point of view and so would have learned more about the migration of Germans and Dutch people who founded England and the fall of the house of Wessex in 1066. But I am also interested in European History especially classical and early Medieval from about 476 AD to about 1066.


Glad to have been of help expanding your knowledge of history. 8)
I have a BA in history from back in my college days, and still eat it up as much as I can! I especially love Germanic antiquities.


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20 Jul 2014, 3:55 pm

I'm also really interested in history, mostly the same things. Dutch is descended from the Frankish language, but there are also people still speaking Low Saxon or Frisian. People are probably mostly descended from the Franks, Frisians and Saxons.

Here is a map of the regions where they speak Low Saxon. Note the tiny dot on the peninsula. That is the town of Urk, which used to be on an island but they later created an artificial peninsula (Noordoostpolder) which connects it to the mainland.

Image



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20 Jul 2014, 7:50 pm

trollcatman wrote:
I'm also really interested in history, mostly the same things. Dutch is descended from the Frankish language, but there are also people still speaking Low Saxon or Frisian. People are probably mostly descended from the Franks, Frisians and Saxons.

Here is a map of the regions where they speak Low Saxon. Note the tiny dot on the peninsula. That is the town of Urk, which used to be on an island but they later created an artificial peninsula (Noordoostpolder) which connects it to the mainland.

Image


That's of course where specific dialects are spoken in the Netherlands, but the reality is the populations have hardly remained unmixed over the centuries. And it ought to be pointed out that Low Franconian had swallowed a dose of Saxon and Frisian dialects, just as middle and high Franconian in Germany had absorbed a lot of High German.


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Arran
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21 Jul 2014, 6:18 am

The Roman empire has always existed in one form or another except during the 19th and early 20th centuries when European countries went their own separate ways.