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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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21 Dec 2014, 1:16 am

I am wondering if anyone can tell me why Non Binary people feel discriminated against by those who are transgendered? I am confused. I know what it means to be transgendered but what is nonbinary in relationship to this?



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22 Dec 2014, 6:33 am

usually the argument is about gender dysphoria and transitioning being considered by truscum the only definition of being trans

however a significant portion of people that are trans and non binary share the view that this kind of gender-policing as ideal because not all trans women/men decide to transition or all the way and it's also agreed on by most that the focus of gender identity should not be attributed to gender expression.

although from were I am from I have noticed that in a crowd of people trans women are outnumbered and not given enough space to voice their views. Also ironically people tend to speak for them alot, for their own personal benefit of seeming like "allies"

and basically i am not trans myself so I can't say my opinion has much value, though I am non-binary and have an outsider observation.



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22 Dec 2014, 10:25 am

"Truscum"? Srsly? You get upset at people doing the equivilent of pointing out that a migraine is not comparable to a slight headache?



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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22 Dec 2014, 8:50 pm

Example of non binary is someone who starts the transgender process but elects not to complete it, rather stay in between genders?



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21 Apr 2016, 5:20 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I am wondering if anyone can tell me why Non Binary people feel discriminated against by those who are transgendered? I am confused. I know what it means to be transgendered but what is nonbinary in relationship to this?


Heh lemme tell you a story xD

I knew a person who is genderqueer(possibly non binary) and this person used to hang with alot of trans folks. At first during this persons period of exploration of gender journey they thought they were transgender(MtF). They never did go through the transition but as a cosplayer they started doing cosplays of female characters and some original outfits that were very feminine. Time went by and they still never transitioned but when they came across the term "genderqueer" they claimed that instead. They said "it felt right, it felt natural and there was nothing else I could have used to describe myself". Nice little story ehh? Well guess what, all those trans folks they used to hang with started to really resent them even hate them pretty much. Called them a liar, called them a faker, didn't even respectively use the pronouns requested by the person. The people ended up falling out with each other due to too much conflict.

The moral of the story is sometimes when you're exploring, you do better to really find out try it on for size before you go claiming stuff. Because while trans people feel that dysphoria everyday to the point where they'd go and change their sex, genderqueer and non binary people may not. Someone making the decision to not transition doesn't make what they went through to get to whatever point any less significant, it just means that their story is different from another person. Anyway long story short, the person's friends thought they lied to them because when they explored the option and possibly transitioning but didn't go through with it then it gave the friends almost a sense of "well gee you lied to us, why'd you have to lie ...?".



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25 May 2016, 11:21 am

It gets even weirder when you're nonbinary and trans.
And yes, I've experienced and heard from others a staggering amount of almost transphobia from transgender binary people toward genderqueer people, whether trans themselves or not.
Mostly the argument seems to be that genderqueers, trans or not, aren't "real" transgender people. Its the old "Not X Enough" argument that I personally despise. Many (I'm not saying all, but certainly a lot of those who perpetrate this idea) binary transgender people are very loyal to gender norms. I once heard a transwoman telling another transwoman that she was just a man in drag because she didn't do enough to make herself feminine, such as makeup and hairstyle. I think it may have a bit to do with their own dysphoria, and projecting that onto others. They are so desperate not to be seen as their birth sex that anyone who is ok with a little bit of each is almost an insult. As if just by existing, they are invalidating that binary transperson's identity as a woman / man.
Again, I once heard a transwoman disgusted with her nonbinary transfeminine colleague say "people will group me in with that, and I'm not the same."
No one is saying she was, but that was how she apparently felt. That this genderqueer woman was giving all transgender women a bad name by not trying hard enough to look traditionally feminine.
I think it's mostly about insecurity, really. Part of the same attitude why bisexual people often get so much hate from gay people.


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25 May 2016, 10:37 pm

Binary gender means identify as male or female. Transgender are included by binary gender as long as they ultimately either identify as male or female, but can also be nonbinary as well. Non-binary means you either identify as somewhere between male or female (possibly gender fluid), or something else entirely. I see myself as nonbinary as I reject the notion of binary gender. I think the problem comes specifically from the transgender people who don't, and they just want the non-binary people to pick a side.


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30 May 2016, 10:23 am

Not being trans, my opinion probably does not mean much.

But, if a person elects to not fully transition (physically) should not be the issue. Quite frankly, it can be a dangerous procedure to have your 'plumbing' changed and create all sorts of troubles. Any surgery is dangerous.

And, quite frankly, if I was to love someone, it would not matter the parts involved. I would just want healthy.

For those who self hates because they do not have the body they identify with, I hope you realize that it is really your heart or head that makes a difference. Not the physical.

Whoever you are, whichever you are, I wish you peace and happiness. That is all that matters.


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31 May 2016, 9:26 pm

Probably because non-binary is not a thing, and gender is not a social construct.

It's hard enough for trans people to be accepted by normal people without so-called "non-binary" people sounding even crazier. They really do a disservice to actual trans people.

The reason trans people are the way they are is because they have brains more similar to the opposite sex. Saying gender is a social construct, which is the only way "non-binary" genders can exist, completely nullifies that point and is insulting to trans people.

Now, before some idiot gets triggered and calls me a transphobe, I suggest you search for Blair White on youtube, particularly the video where she talks about gender not being a social construct. I would post the link, but I can't because I'm new.


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01 Jun 2016, 3:29 am

Quote:
The reason trans people are the way they are is because they have brains more similar to the opposite sex. Saying gender is a social construct, which is the only way "non-binary" genders can exist, completely nullifies that point and is insulting to trans people.

Not necessarily. Transsexuality is still much of a mystery, and the idea that male and female brains, including those of transpeople, are actually all that different is not an accepted fact. Even the white / grey ratio in transfolk before and after hormonal transition remains unverified.
There is also the theory that transgender people receive more of the gendering hormones in utero than they should for their birth gender, meaning they develop more the other way than "normal" but not enough to actually tip them over into developing the other way completely, if that makes sense. If this theory is correct, then genderqueer development makes perfect sense - genderqueers received equal amounts of both testosterone and oestrogen during natal development, meaning their brains developed to be middling.
Besides, some of gendered behaviour is a social construct, evidenced by the fact that it varies so much over different cultures and times. To say social influence has nothing to do with gendered behaviour would be to claim that gender roles have remained constant since the beginning of human evolution in every country on earth, which is just not correct.
But you can call me a fake tranny if you want to. Makes no difference to me as a genderqueer transperson, nor the fact that my physical transition has been completely accepted at every stage by every clinician I have seen.


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01 Jun 2016, 7:58 am

C2V wrote:
.....nor the fact that my physical transition has been completely accepted at every stage by every clinician I have seen.
Time to let the stupid flag fly here....

I am lost on this. Mainly because I can't help but think any clinician should be this way. It was your choice and you succeeded. And, I am assuming satisfied and/or happy about it.

So, that is why that stumps me.

Oh yeah...'failed tranny?' That stumps me as well. I mean, how can you fail at that if you are happy where you are?


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01 Jun 2016, 9:52 pm

C2V wrote:
Quote:
The reason trans people are the way they are is because they have brains more similar to the opposite sex. Saying gender is a social construct, which is the only way "non-binary" genders can exist, completely nullifies that point and is insulting to trans people.

Not necessarily. Transsexuality is still much of a mystery, and the idea that male and female brains, including those of transpeople, are actually all that different is not an accepted fact. Even the white / grey ratio in transfolk before and after hormonal transition remains unverified.
There is also the theory that transgender people receive more of the gendering hormones in utero than they should for their birth gender, meaning they develop more the other way than "normal" but not enough to actually tip them over into developing the other way completely, if that makes sense. If this theory is correct, then genderqueer development makes perfect sense - genderqueers received equal amounts of both testosterone and oestrogen during natal development, meaning their brains developed to be middling.
Besides, some of gendered behaviour is a social construct, evidenced by the fact that it varies so much over different cultures and times. To say social influence has nothing to do with gendered behaviour would be to claim that gender roles have remained constant since the beginning of human evolution in every country on earth, which is just not correct.
But you can call me a fake tranny if you want to. Makes no difference to me as a genderqueer transperson, nor the fact that my physical transition has been completely accepted at every stage by every clinician I have seen.


Gendered behaviour and gender are two different things. Gender roles and behaviour are often social constructs. Gender itself, however, is not.


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02 Jun 2016, 9:28 am

This thread is a mess.

Nb people exist. The idea that there are only two genders is a very western concept so by saying there are only men and women you're showing disrespect just not to current nb people raised with western ideals, but to other cultures, who have had genders that go beyond male and female for hundreds and thousands of years. Yikes.

Really classy that you think that you get to dictate to other people what they are. It's very reminiscent of biphobia in the gay community.


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02 Jun 2016, 11:03 am

lidsmichelle wrote:
This thread is a mess.

Nb people exist. The idea that there are only two genders is a very western concept so by saying there are only men and women you're showing disrespect just not to current nb people raised with western ideals, but to other cultures, who have had genders that go beyond male and female for hundreds and thousands of years. Yikes.

Really classy that you think that you get to dictate to other people what they are. It's very reminiscent of biphobia in the gay community.


Many of those "other genders" are eunuchs. Eunuchs are not a third gender. They're just men without balls. And cultural relativism is stupid.


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02 Jun 2016, 1:46 pm

As much as I would love to argue with some as pleasant and intelligent as you, I think I'll pass lol. You have no idea what you're talking about, and clearly have no desire to educate yourself.

Anyways, to answer the original question its because a small subset of binany trans people can be very ugly about this stuff. It's the same as the small subset of gay people who act like bi people are taking away from their struggles and making them look bad, and telling them have to be either straight or gay. They're trying to push them out of a community they have every right to be part of.

Anyways, crack open any anth or soc 101 textbook and you'll be greeted with the fact that gender is a social construct. I don't think gender isn't real, but it's more of a personal thing based on cultural context than an absolute. Gender exists in the same way time does imo.


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02 Jun 2016, 9:43 pm

It's hard to argue with an anti-positivist social-constructionist considering they don't believe in empirical evidence. Anyway, gender is not a social construct. It is based in biology. Gender roles may largely be social constructs, but gender itself is not. Gender is based on biology--hormones, brain structure, and so on. Those are the things that determine gender. Gender is not just some convenient thing one can just change on a whim.


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