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kraftiekortie
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17 Feb 2015, 11:32 am

I don't believe in a "white" identity. The whole idea is too broad for me.

Trust me, Africans don't believe in a "black" identity in the same sense that African-Americans do. They identify with their ethnic group.

I believe people, by and large, identify with their ethnic group or ethnic groups more or less. They might identify with the nation where they live. The ratio between ethnic group/nationalist identification varies quite a bit.

As for me, I identify with being a New Yorker first---then an American--then a Jew--then an "intellectual"--I don't identify with being "white" at all--unless somebody insults me solely for being "white."



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 17 Feb 2015, 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

GoonSquad
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17 Feb 2015, 11:40 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Let me emphasize:

Immigration is what the United States is all about. If people fail to see that, they don't know their history.


However, just saying that does not make the people who "lose to an immigrant" feel better.

I cited many examples prior of different people upset at immigrants. For example, the person who lost his job to a H1B Indian worker can take comfort in knowing "immigration is what this country is all about" ? No, of course.

Well, maybe if those people WORKED HARDER they wouldn't lose their job to an immigrant.

We wouldn't be importing high level foreign workers if we had more HARDWORKING and COMPETENT people here.

Suck it up, crybabies! That's the free market, American way.


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AspieUtah
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17 Feb 2015, 11:56 am

The bigger question is "should nations stand by and watch their namesake cultures change to something unrecognizable?"

In other words, since Paris is very quickly and obviously becoming a culture that isn't Parisian (thanks to its below-replacement birth rate and influx of new citizens who have neither the interest nor talent to continue), should it and its citizens care? Who would visit Paris if it was merely a Disney-fied Audio-Animatronics representation of its once-former self, and not the real thing? Why not just go to Epcot and save half the cost? In any case, Paris would die culturally simply because the culture is no longer self-evident or, worse, faked for the sake of cash.

Many New Yorkers said the same thing when its most-recent business renaissance was underway. They didn't like the Disney influence at Times Square even if it did clean up the neighborhood for tourist families. Same thing happened at about the same time in Hollywood where, once again, Disney influenced and paid for the renovation of the Hollywood District in its confusing way "as we remember it," not the way it really was.

Dolling up a kitschy rendition of a piece or two of any socially iconic imagery is harmless, of course; that is what makes the various Disney parks fun. But, in the case of whole cultures being substituted and rendered into oblivion, doing so on a larger scale might not yield the results anyone would want.

So, it is not so easy to suggest that future Parises, New Yorks and Hollywoods will always be just like they are now. Experience alone informs us that it isn't a valid expectation.

Whether it is a disproportionate changing of the citizenry "guard," or a corporate makeover, we are at the crossroads of losing many of the world's most notable societies. And, that's a big deal, in my opinion.


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GoonSquad
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17 Feb 2015, 12:20 pm

^^^ You're wrong about Paris and Muslims in France.

Those people are not integrating into French society mostly because French society excludes them.

Those people just want to make a better life for themselves however they can. Let them into the greater society, let them participate in the greater economy and they will.

Do that and assimilation is sure to follow... In the case of Paris, sure it will be different, but it won't be unrecognizable. Th Muslims will simply add their cultural distinctiveness the that of the French. It won't be bad and nothing will be truly lost.

The cultural stew will just get a bit spicier and it might get served over couscous a bit more often...

It's not bad. Don't be afraid.


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AspieUtah
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17 Feb 2015, 12:37 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
^^^ You're wrong about Paris and Muslims in France.

Those people are not integrating into French society mostly because French society excludes them....

How are new French immigrants being excluded?


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17 Feb 2015, 12:43 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
Racism and Xenophobia that's all this thread screams, before you know it the OP will spout off the anti racism is code for anti white LOL!


It is in the news all the time. MSNBC, CNN are giddy that "Republicans are finished nationally because of demographic changes".

Yes, liberals do seem racist, because they focus on race much, however, they present themselves as non-racist. This is what the OP is discussing.
You need to realize America is a nation of immigrants it isn't a white only country!


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GoonSquad
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17 Feb 2015, 12:55 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
^^^ You're wrong about Paris and Muslims in France.

Those people are not integrating into French society mostly because French society excludes them....

How are new French immigrants being excluded?

By good old racism and natural antipathy for the different other.

Source (click)

This is just a single example of how Muslims are excluded and discriminated against in France and greater Europe...

Quote:
In the name of “strict secularism” (or laïcité), France has imposed severe limitations on children’s fundamental rights to develop their internal belief systems and identities while communicating those beliefs in the marketplace of ideas.

On a more practical level, this policy interferes with a student’s fundamental human right to an education and the parents’ fundamental right to direct the education of their children in a manner consistent with their value systems.

By marginalizing members of minority religious groups, France, as the U.S. commission on international religious freedom (USCIRF) put it, has forced students to make the “untenable choice between practicing their faith [and] obtaining a proper education.” That is a Hobbesian choice that no child deserves to make.

France has consistently demonstrated its utter refusal to address this violation by enacting and proposing heightened restrictions on religious expression. In 2011, the country’s lawmakers doubled down on their restrictions on expression, banning the wearing of full-face veils. Though neutral on its face, the national debate leading up to this legislation and the variety of exceptions make it clear that France was targeting the Islamic burqa and niqab. Recently, President Fraçois Hollande has also called for extending the “headscarf ban” to private employers and universities.


We would NEVER tolerate this kind of crap here in the US. As bad as race relations in the US can be, Europe, on the whole, is much much worse. They simply don't have a tradition of immigration and they mostly don't know how to deal with it at all.


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AspieUtah
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17 Feb 2015, 1:00 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
You need to realize America is a nation of immigrants it isn't a white only country!

Yes, it is. But, until recently, immigrants to the United States had to show that they enjoyed a skill or other knowledge that would benefit the United States, or could show political or religious persecution in their nation of emigration. So, it is clear that those who immigrate here have no such right, per se, to do so. On top of that, they must have been able to prove satisfactorily that they would contribute to the national economy and society. Apart from that, they used to be required to speak conversational English and have no contagious diseases.

Those former rules worked at Ellis Island when this national enjoyed its greatest influx of new citizens who went on to benefit themselves and our nation. What would be so wrong to return to those rules, especially if they worked so well once before?

This topic should recognize that a U.S. District Court judge in Texas determined yesterday that the president's amnesty programs, policies and orders are unconstitutional http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/te ... s/23540135 .


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17 Feb 2015, 1:06 pm

GoonSquad wrote:

We wouldn't be importing high level foreign workers if we had more HARDWORKING and COMPETENT people here.

Suck it up, crybabies! That's the free market, American way.


Funny. However, the "guest worker" programs cater mostly to third world countries, because cheaper labor is what is sought. Many H1Bs are for 'IT service', which is not a specialized skill missing in America.

Also, this is not a trivial issue, because as I cited earlier, many of the big tech companies are 40-60% Asian (which includes Indian people counted as Asian) and other minority groups are complaining, because they have few blacks and few Hispanics and even whites are much underrepresented. Intel is spending like 300 million to try and figure out how to solve this "problem" of too many Asians.

see here, http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ces-20 ... em-n281611

I guess the answers to these black and Hispanic groups is , "suck it up losers".



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17 Feb 2015, 1:09 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
You need to realize America is a nation of immigrants it isn't a white only country!

Yes, it is. But, until recently, immigrants to the United States had to show that they enjoyed a skill or other knowledge that would benefit the United States, or could show political or religious persecution in their nation of emigration. So, it is clear that those who immigrate here have no such right, per se, to do so. On top of that, they must have been able to prove satisfactorily that they would contribute to the national economy and society. Apart from that, they used to be required to speak conversational English and have no contagious diseases.

Those former rules worked at Ellis Island when this national enjoyed its greatest influx of new citizens who went on to benefit themselves and our nation. What would be so wrong to return to those rules, especially if they worked so well once before?

This topic should recognize that a U.S. District Court judge in Texas determined yesterday that the president's amnesty programs, policies and orders are unconstitutional http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/te ... s/23540135 .


Please. name the current immigrant group that isn't contributing to the economy--especially since modern immigration is pretty much TOTALLY driven by economic factors.

Really, I'd like to hear this because that point seems completely baseless. Enlighten me.


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LoveNotHate
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17 Feb 2015, 1:11 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
You need to realize America is a nation of immigrants it isn't a white only country!


This seems like an inflammatory statement that does not follow from what is discussed.

As I pointed our prior, "white people" are really peach, so yeah, I know this is not a "white only country". It seems like you are not reading the comments fully.



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17 Feb 2015, 1:14 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:

We wouldn't be importing high level foreign workers if we had more HARDWORKING and COMPETENT people here.

Suck it up, crybabies! That's the free market, American way.


Funny. However, the "guest worker" programs cater mostly to third world countries, because cheaper labor is what is sought. Many H1Bs are for 'IT service', which is not a specialized skill missing in America.

Also, this is not a trivial issue, because as I cited earlier, many of the big tech companies are 40-60% Asian (which includes Indian people counted as Asian) and other minority groups are complaining, because they have few blacks and few Hispanics and even whites are much underrepresented. Intel is spending like 300 million to try and figure out how to solve this "problem" of too many Asians.

see here, http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ces-20 ... em-n281611

I guess the answers to these black and Hispanic groups is , "suck it up losers".


The solution is that Whites, blacks, and Hispanics need to study harder and develop marketable skills. As I said before, this is how the free market works. Welcome to the jungle.

If you have a BETTER solution, please state it.

Surely,you are not suggesting private businesses should be forced to hire inferior workers and higher wages?

Because that's just... socialist. :lol:

:P


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17 Feb 2015, 1:17 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
This topic should recognize that a U.S. District Court judge in Texas determined yesterday that the president's amnesty programs, policies and orders are unconstitutional http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/te ... s/23540135 .


Land of the free? Maybe America should change its motto to something more religious and mindless like "Land of the only people in the world who God loves despite our ubiquitous adherence to the seven deadly sins, predominantly greed, and our fascist superiority complex"

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17 Feb 2015, 1:28 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
By good old racism and natural antipathy for the different other.

Source (click)

[...]

We would NEVER tolerate this kind of crap here in the US. As bad as race relations in the US can be, Europe, on the whole, is much much worse. They simply don't have a tradition of immigration and they mostly don't know how to deal with it at all.

I opposed that religious-clothing prohibition when it happened. I am surprised it is still enforceable; I had presumed it would have been repealed.

And, we actually do tolerate religious discrimination in the United States that is probably more egregious than a head-scarf ban. Under the ubiquitous IRS rules, churches may not engage in political advocacy. But, under the George W. Bush administration, the president's Faith Based initiatives tried to broach the "separation of church and state" by enticing churches to do what the government desired them to do. Under the Obama administration, the president IRS has harassed and audited churches, leading to congressional investigations.

For those few churches who choose to abandon their IRS nonprofit determinations and engage in political advocacy as any other corporation or group of individuals may do, even then they are still required to "show their papers" to engage in free speech.

In my opinion, at least, it is much more egregious than a prohibition of religious clothing, however repugnant it is.


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17 Feb 2015, 1:35 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Please. name the current immigrant group that isn't contributing to the economy--especially since modern immigration is pretty much TOTALLY driven by economic factors.

Really, I'd like to hear this because that point seems completely baseless. Enlighten me.

Well, "[a] 2004 study found that over 60% of the 16.5 million Latin American-born adults who resided in the United States at the time of the survey regularly sent money home. The remittances sent by these 10 million immigrants were transmitted via more than 100 million individual transactions per year and amounted to an estimated $30 billion during 2004" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittanc ... ted_States .

As a constitutionalist, I support the legal ability to remit whatever amount of their income they choose to send to other nations. Heck, people who contribute to "buy a tree in Israel" charities do much the same thing. But, I believe that, when it amounts to tens of billions of dollars lost to our annual economy, leaving an economic vacuum that isn't replaced, it does damage to our economy; and suggests a doubtful loyalty to the nation that feeds the contributors.


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17 Feb 2015, 2:12 pm

@AspieUtah,

I gotta say, I think both your points are incredibly weak.
Concerning churches, they enjoy tax exempt status because they are seen as being, primarily, religious charities. Once they start using church resources for non-charity things like politics, they should be subject to tax. Sure corporations (who are people too, my friend) engage in political activity, BUT they are already subject to tax--at least in theory.

There's nothing to stop a bunch of like-minded religious folks from the same church from forming a PAC to influence politics. So, go do that, if you feel the need to mix religion and politics.

As for immigrant workers sending money out of the country.... Well, that money has already "trickled down" about as far as it ever could. According to right wing economics, it has done it's job. :roll:

At any rate, we live in a global economy. So, according to all the Republican and Democrat free traders, we'll still get our share of that money back via our participation in the global economy...

Also, don't forget, those immigrant workers make a huge contribution to our local economy by keeping local goods and services cheap!

The issues of immigration weave a rich tapestry my friend. Don't let the scales of xenophobia on your eyes blind you to it's great beauty! :D


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