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techstepgenr8tion
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02 Mar 2015, 8:50 pm

Shoegazer,

One of the big challenges with the bible is that the philosophy it's comprised of is necessarily obscured - ie. you'll see echoes of it in places like John but in a lot of ways the places ideas or concepts like the trinity came from aren't easily self-related in the bible, much like the words 'soul' and 'spirit' and defining the two as well as the difference between the two seems like a place where the reader is left high and dry.

I do wonder if you'd get a lot out of reading Philo Judaeus, Plato, or some of the Corpus Hermetica just because things like the idea of the world emanating from God's mouth, the seven-eyed stone in Zachariah, the four faces of the cherubim, or the clues as to what the functions of a 'rule of three' would consist of meaningfully in a Godhead as understood by the authors of the old and new testament - you're getting context clues to the philosophy and the meanings behind the symbols that way rather than trying fit a 20th or 21st century frame of reference over them.


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02 Mar 2015, 9:43 pm

Basso53 wrote:
Stargazer43 wrote:
As far as I know, there isn't a single instance in the Bible where Jesus referred to himself as God, or asked his followers to bow down and worship him...so why do we do so today? There is even a quote from one of my favorite stories in the Bible in which Jesus says "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God". That quote in and of itself suggests a separation between them and also suggests that even as the son of God he still had his flaws. Does anyone have any insight?


That's not quite true. Jesus never unambiguously asserts divinity, or being of equal status with God, in the three synoptic gospels, but the high Christology of John has him asserting it unambiguously on many occasions. There he is the Logos, the Word, with God and in fact God himself at the dawn of time according to the author right in the preamble, and Jesus asserts it at various places throughout the gospel.


The issue with John is that it fails just about every convention used by biblical scholars trying to get to what actually happened. Ie what did Jesus teach, what did his disciples actually believe etc. John fits neatly into the context of the time in which it was written and the needs of the christian church at that time. It no multiple independent attestations, no criterion of dissimilarity nor of historical plausibility etc.


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03 Mar 2015, 4:00 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Basso53 wrote:
Stargazer43 wrote:
As far as I know, there isn't a single instance in the Bible where Jesus referred to himself as God, or asked his followers to bow down and worship him...so why do we do so today? There is even a quote from one of my favorite stories in the Bible in which Jesus says "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God". That quote in and of itself suggests a separation between them and also suggests that even as the son of God he still had his flaws. Does anyone have any insight?


That's not quite true. Jesus never unambiguously asserts divinity, or being of equal status with God, in the three synoptic gospels, but the high Christology of John has him asserting it unambiguously on many occasions. There he is the Logos, the Word, with God and in fact God himself at the dawn of time according to the author right in the preamble, and Jesus asserts it at various places throughout the gospel.


The issue with John is that it fails just about every convention used by biblical scholars trying to get to what actually happened. Ie what did Jesus teach, what did his disciples actually believe etc. John fits neatly into the context of the time in which it was written and the needs of the christian church at that time. It no multiple independent attestations, no criterion of dissimilarity nor of historical plausibility etc.


Agreed. As a first century Galilean, Jesus would almost certainly have been uneducated and illiterate, and his disciples even more so, with the possible exception of Levi (aka Matthew in the gospel of that name), who as a tax collector may have had rudimentary writing skills and could do basic sums. The long, sophisticated discourses attributed to him in John just don't reflect the way that he would have spoken and taught. John is a theological exposition, not really a reliable account of Jesus' life and death.

And no serious Biblical scholar of the last half century really believes that John the son of Zebedee was capable of writing it, to the point where most now simply refer to it as the Fourth Gospel. :wink:


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03 Mar 2015, 5:14 pm

And like I said earlier the vast majority of Christians do not want to discuss any of this. Where are the rapid creationists who demand video footage of every stage of evolution before they will even consider it to be valid? Apart from Sophisticated (who I seem to recall has stated he is not a Christian?) none of them have replied to the OP.


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03 Mar 2015, 6:18 pm

Firstly, does the Bible state Jesus is equal to God?
1st Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Did you understand that? Christ is above everything except for the "He" who put things under his feet, namely God himself, whats more, after the 1000 years when the creation is restored, Jesus hands back the Kingdom given him back to his Father.

What about the Old Testament?
Daniel 7
Vision of the Ancient of Days

9 “I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court[b] was seated,
And the books were opened.


13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,

Jesus is "the son of man" and you may remember how he is described as coming on the clouds of Heaven when he returns.
Note that even in Heaven, Jesus is not God, he has to approach him.

So why does Christendom worship Gods son and a Trinity?
All pagan Sun worshipping religions involve Trinities, going back to when Nimrod killed his father, married his own mother and became his own father.
He was deified as Tammuz the Sun god, his birthday was on December 25th and his Mother was deified as the fertility goddess, known as Easter with her eggs and bunnies.

Jesus said he does not return until the "great apostasy" comes first, and the great apostasy is Christianity morphing back into Sun worship.

Satan was a son of God who will be condemned for trying to take the position of God.
He try's to tempt Jesus to do the same by getting Christians to worship him as God.
No wonder when Jesus returns he will have to reject the worship of the vast majority of his followers.

"Get away from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you" Matthew 7 v 23

I do not attend any Christan church as I would follow the first commandment, "Do not worship other gods"

Ask a Jew if God is "One" or God is three, they were told who God is.



naturalplastic
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04 Mar 2015, 2:21 am

Narrator wrote:
There are a lot of places in both old and new testaments where Jesus' is made equivalent to God, but as others have indicated, scripture was made to suit the theology.

The Christian trinity was not the first or last of such god-heads. Diana Nemorensis was a triple female god who also made it onto roman coin around 45BC. Lugus was a triple faced god of the Celtics, having roots that go back to Rome in the century before Christ. The Celts also had the Great Mother, a lunar goddess who had three personifications.

There is even some trinitarian association with Morgase of the Arthurian legend.


Don't forget the Trimurti. The top three gods of Hinduism: Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer.



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04 Mar 2015, 1:09 pm

Of course, in days of Old, OF EMPEROR Constantine and the Roman Empire the folks there took advantage of this metaphor OF the CONCEPT OF THE HOLY TRINITY expressed for Jesus as Soldier Sun GOD to expand Roman Empire and Roman Catholic empire influence. And of course, Constantine rides the coat 'tale' of that myth, as well, in erecting a giant monument for he, as Sun GOD too.

Being human is not a one dimensional experience.

There is human solving problems in reason or mechanical cognition mind.

There is human connections of emotions expressed verbally and non verbally in social cognition mind.

And then there is the subconscious creative mind in flow that operates MORE freely without direct control of the two metaphors of mind listed above.

For example:

The father or better expressed as mother, is core of human emotions and senses innately instinctually and intuitively housed in body (Temple of GOD) inspiring reason. This father requires no words in true core human expression of 'me' that is also at core 'you', overall.

The son is reason in mind producing the artifacts of life in abstract 'terms' like words, and other 'tools' of humanly expressed culture.

And the holy spirit is the creative subconscious mind unleashed, released, and more fully expressed, per the greatest mind of all, in both volume, effect and affect on others inspiring human creativity and productivity for survival.

And people who more fully express these three types of minds in mind and body balance are certainly special, as they stand out from the heard of herd in crowd.

But making these folks into idols to worship, with the tribal instinct in tow, of my quarterback is better than your quarterback, leads to potential great bloodshed as history shows over and over, with Icon Quarterbacks like the old myth of Vishnu, Jesus or Muhammad in human mythology that continues on from centuries ago.

We have the ability to connect the dots with science in tow.

But the problem is the individual unit of human being that IS still evolving or devolving in just one lifetime of neuroplastic and epigenetic IMPACT OF HUMAN BEING more fully realized OR NOT, IN FULLER HUMAN POTENTIAL.

IN MY 'signature' LINE, I use the symbol of '!' for Creative Spirit, and 'i' for the core of me that controls the ACTOR 'I' in practice that the director that is 'i' controls, in relative human free WILL to produce the play of what 'you' see here online, or in real life when 'I' dance as more truly 'me' at core, as 'i'

Free style dance is the closest thing of 'i' expressed in reality for 'me' as there are no filters of words to confuse what 'i' am at core, when 'i' lose my ego, 'I', in dance.

The following video speaks to that potential in life well.



Whatever works for each individual human being is MOST important.

The worst part about cookie cutter rigid expressions of religion and/or culture is one size does not fit all.

THANK GOD FOR THE GOOD OLD USA AND SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE AS TRULY THAT IS A 'GODSEND'
FOR EVERYONE CONCERNED.

TO HAVE A PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE PRACTICED IN MIND AND BODY BALANCE CONNECTING TO FLESH AND BLOOD HUMANS
AFFECTIVELY AND EFFECTIVELY IN REAL FLESH AND BLOOD LIFE IS SIMPY HUMAN SUCCESS.

And nah, grade school, secondary school, college, and even post graduate education, overall, rarely touches this most important of human practices EXPRESSED IN FLESH AND BLOOD LIFE, effectively and AFFECTIVELY.

The world can never live peacefully without individual philosophies of life that work in PRACTICE IN REAL FLESH AND BLOOD LIFE.

And cookie cutter solutions, again, WILL NEVER WORK FOR ALL UNIQUE HUMAN PERCEPTIONS OF INDIVIDUAL UNIVERSES, AS PERCEIVED.

THE INTERNET IS NOT COOKIE CUTTER, THANK GOD; AT LEAST NOt YET,

EITHER.

AND AS LONG AS FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS NOT CENSORED GREATER AND CONTINUES TO EXPAND..

PEACE DOES

STILL

sTAND
A
CHANCE.

OH yeah, and to give credit NOWwHere credit IS DUE.. tHere is also the fourth.. fifth.. sixth.. OR WH@EVER DIMENSiONS OF EXISTeNCE PER soOn DimenSions of Mother Nature True aka GOD in INFINiTY! FLOW.. THE BIGGEST 'OCEAN' IN existence.. of ALL.

So yeah, most of 'US' have the heArt of connecting emotion, the sOul of creativity and reaSon, and the potenTial to expreSS ALL of THAT togeThEr in MIND AND BODY BALANCE otherWise knownOW as CRE@iVE FULLER SPIRit! WitH INSTEAD OF AGAINST mOTHER NATURE TRUE AKA GoD2.

Any questions...;)


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04 Mar 2015, 3:38 pm

Stargazer43 wrote:
I really don't want for this thread to turn into a debate about religion, but I have a question about Christianity that's been bugging me for a while. I consider myself a Christian and have fairly strong spiritual beliefs, but I can't seem to reconcile one particular aspect.

I notice when I go to church that typically, the pastor will pray to Jesus, worship Jesus, and basically treat Jesus as God. Oftentimes he will never even say "God", but instead replace it with "Jesus". This seems to be the case regardless of denomination, but seems much more prevalent in the so-called evangelical or Baptist denominations. I know that this all goes back to the concept of the Holy Trinity, that suggests that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are inseparable. I have never fully bought into that concept though. As far as I know, there isn't a single instance in the Bible where Jesus referred to himself as God, or asked his followers to bow down and worship him...so why do we do so today? There is even a quote from one of my favorite stories in the Bible in which Jesus says "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God". That quote in and of itself suggests a separation between them and also suggests that even as the son of God he still had his flaws. Does anyone have any insight?


Jesus said: I and my Father are One. John 10:30. If Jesus really said that, then he is claiming to be God.



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04 Mar 2015, 4:08 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Stargazer43 wrote:
I really don't want for this thread to turn into a debate about religion, but I have a question about Christianity that's been bugging me for a while. I consider myself a Christian and have fairly strong spiritual beliefs, but I can't seem to reconcile one particular aspect.

I notice when I go to church that typically, the pastor will pray to Jesus, worship Jesus, and basically treat Jesus as God. Oftentimes he will never even say "God", but instead replace it with "Jesus". This seems to be the case regardless of denomination, but seems much more prevalent in the so-called evangelical or Baptist denominations. I know that this all goes back to the concept of the Holy Trinity, that suggests that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are inseparable. I have never fully bought into that concept though. As far as I know, there isn't a single instance in the Bible where Jesus referred to himself as God, or asked his followers to bow down and worship him...so why do we do so today? There is even a quote from one of my favorite stories in the Bible in which Jesus says "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God". That quote in and of itself suggests a separation between them and also suggests that even as the son of God he still had his flaws. Does anyone have any insight?


Jesus said: I and my Father are One. John 10:30. If Jesus really said that, then he is claiming to be God.


Ugh... "I and my Father are ONE", JOHN 10:30, means Jesus is claiming to be GOD; a literal take on the English of Human Metaphor.

If GOD is ALL, which is precisely what the Alpha and the Omega mean, Jesus, 'YOU', Mary, AND Joseph are ONE too, and in TRUE EFFECT pArT of GOD too, AS GOD.

That's also common SENSE logic, as well, for the folks who understand what the word ONE means in reference to ALL as GOD, or ALL as ALL.. AH.. ah.. ALLaH.. now you get it.. yup.. probably not.. and that's OK.. as the human species is a diverse lot of FLESH AND BLOOD and worded tools of expression.. for sure...

This is the stuff of life of FREE verse poet's and NOT ROCKET SCIENTIST'S, overall.

'Psychopathic' leaning folks, ACCORDING TO THE SCIENCE OF THAT DO use little to no emotion in language, nor do they understand emotion in language, through metaphor well either, although they can often FAKE IT IN real life, against those who lack a discerning eye on human emotional behavior.

And according to Science the 'clergy' rates in the top 10 professions of psychopathic leaning folks, and oh boy, with the literal take that psychopathic LEANING clergy folks take on the free verse poetry of the bible, it's no wonder at all that they are not very effective in the affect of discerning meanings in free verse poetry of metaphors, in biblical revised way.

And of course, in the 'old days', the folks in the know for discerning MUCH DEEPER language metaphors could discern that the leaders often exhibited cold hearted ways, so what to do, WHAT TO DO, of COURSE!..

YES! HIDE THE essence of Truth MEANINGS IN FREE VERSE PARABLE OF METAPHOR, so the meanings of TRUTH WILL go RIGHT OVER THE HEAD OF THE PSYCHOPATHIC leaning church and or political leaders, as to NOT GET THE TRUTH HOUSED IN VEHICLES AND VESSELS OF METAPHORS CENSORED OUT! BY those psychopathic leaning church and or political leaders.

Some things, rarely change, and sometimes human behavior can be quite predictable for those who discern it well.

And yes, some folks on the spectrum have great difficulty understanding metaphor and some excel at it so well they can create metaphors of their own, per code (emotional deeper meaning metaphor) and OTHER stuff like that too..;)

The bottom line is a reciprocal social communicate disorder, with RRB's, PER AUTISM, and that means necessarily neither lack of human EMOTIONAL AFFECT or understanding deeper metaphors in life FOR SOME folks on the Spectrum.

In fact, understanding too much, per DEEPER METAPHORS IN LIFE, and attempting to express DEEPER EMOTIONAL ORIENTED METAPHORS to those folks who do not, is often considered a communication failure for those other folks who simply do NOT HAVE THE 'Tools' or REAL LIFE education OF EXPERIENCE to understand IT.

AND LIFE GOES ON....


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05 Mar 2015, 2:24 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Jesus said: I and my Father are One. John 10:30. If Jesus really said that, then he is claiming to be God.


Don't forget the scripture where he also claims to be "One" with the twelve apostles, so that makes God a ?, (whatever the name for a god comprising 15 members is?)



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05 Mar 2015, 2:59 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Stargazer43 wrote:
I really don't want for this thread to turn into a debate about religion, but I have a question about Christianity that's been bugging me for a while. I consider myself a Christian and have fairly strong spiritual beliefs, but I can't seem to reconcile one particular aspect.

I notice when I go to church that typically, the pastor will pray to Jesus, worship Jesus, and basically treat Jesus as God. Oftentimes he will never even say "God", but instead replace it with "Jesus". This seems to be the case regardless of denomination, but seems much more prevalent in the so-called evangelical or Baptist denominations. I know that this all goes back to the concept of the Holy Trinity, that suggests that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are inseparable. I have never fully bought into that concept though. As far as I know, there isn't a single instance in the Bible where Jesus referred to himself as God, or asked his followers to bow down and worship him...so why do we do so today? There is even a quote from one of my favorite stories in the Bible in which Jesus says "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God". That quote in and of itself suggests a separation between them and also suggests that even as the son of God he still had his flaws. Does anyone have any insight?


Jesus said: I and my Father are One. John 10:30. If Jesus really said that, then he is claiming to be God.


Have a look at the passage that comes before it:

John 10:29 : "My Father is greater than all"

Big contradiction right there.



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05 Mar 2015, 5:11 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
And like I said earlier the vast majority of Christians do not want to discuss any of this. Where are the rapid creationists who demand video footage of every stage of evolution before they will even consider it to be valid? Apart from Sophisticated (who I seem to recall has stated he is not a Christian?) none of them have replied to the OP.
I think Oldavid and Shep are either on vacation or hiding in their secret creationist lair praying to their imaginary friend in order to come up with an argument trying to prove fairy tales as non fiction.


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05 Mar 2015, 6:11 pm

sophisticated wrote:
Have a look at the passage that comes before it:

John 10:29 : "My Father is greater than all"

Big contradiction right there.


John is clearly written by someone who wants to prove Jesus is divine as in God and not a god. To do this he makes up the arguments. It is hardly surprising that such a document would contain inconsistencies.


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05 Mar 2015, 6:14 pm

Shep's a cool guy. He just happens to believe in God.

Oldavid probably decided it wasn't worth it any more to go on the Internet under a Persona--in order to provoke people into arguments.



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05 Mar 2015, 8:13 pm

I have not got time right now to look into the Daniel verses. I however say this, much of what occurs in the OT is taken completely out of context by Christians. Verses often attributed as a prophecy of Jesus are easily explained as referring to something happening in a context contemporary to the writing. Isaiah 53 is a classic example of this.

With regard to the earliest Christian beliefs it is widely thought that some passages in Paul - opening paragraph of First Romans and several parts of the Speeches of acts. are pre literary creeds. IE they are the beliefs of the earliest Christians and they clearly show Jesus to be a mortal man exulted by God at his Resurrection or baptism.

The later move to exult Jesus higher and higher until he becomes eternal and like god in every way, caused a major problem in a monotheistic religion, hence the move to the trinity. Which as Nambo and others have correctly pointed out was not an unheard of situation, and clearly borrows from "pagan" religions.


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05 Mar 2015, 8:29 pm

Stargazer43 wrote:
I really don't want for this thread to turn into a debate about religion, but I have a question about Christianity that's been bugging me for a while. I consider myself a Christian and have fairly strong spiritual beliefs, but I can't seem to reconcile one particular aspect.

I notice when I go to church that typically, the pastor will pray to Jesus, worship Jesus, and basically treat Jesus as God. Oftentimes he will never even say "God", but instead replace it with "Jesus". This seems to be the case regardless of denomination, but seems much more prevalent in the so-called evangelical or Baptist denominations. I know that this all goes back to the concept of the Holy Trinity, that suggests that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are inseparable. I have never fully bought into that concept though. As far as I know, there isn't a single instance in the Bible where Jesus referred to himself as God, or asked his followers to bow down and worship him...so why do we do so today? There is even a quote from one of my favorite stories in the Bible in which Jesus says "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God". That quote in and of itself suggests a separation between them and also suggests that even as the son of God he still had his flaws. Does anyone have any insight?


Didn't the Father figure engage in coitus with the temporarily-just-human Mary and inject her egg with some limited edition Holy Ghost?

But wait, how can Jesus be one with the Father if he was born.....umm...cause then he's an eternal being that was .....born???

But wait, if Jesus is actually the Father then he engaged in coitus with his own Mother.......OMFG!! !!....Ewwww-Ewwww!!
Freud would love this ....except no wait....he was Jewish....oh f**k if I know!! !

I'll stick with things that are logical and pass on the UFO's, mother goose, Nibiru, god myths, etc.....