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tagnacious
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29 Apr 2015, 4:03 pm

Hey, now! Be nice. Don't make me call in the moderators. And I'll do it, too. I'm a tattle tail.

I have a rule. If I can't talk sense into someone in two posts, I let it drop. Because after that it just becomes a one-up competition.



btbnnyr
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29 Apr 2015, 4:05 pm

tagnacious wrote:
Hey, now! Be nice. Don't make me call in the moderators. And I'll do it, too. I'm a tattle tail.

I have a rule. If I can't talk sense into someone in two posts, I let it drop. Because after that it just becomes a one-up competition.


Don't worry, I don't engage in one ups with people.

Your standard for moderation is too strict in my opinion.


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tagnacious
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29 Apr 2015, 4:13 pm

And... we have a report.

Does anyone have anything on productive to say on the original topic? Because I was enjoying the conversation.



btbnnyr
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29 Apr 2015, 4:15 pm

tagnacious wrote:
And... we have a report.

Does anyone have anything on productive to say on the original topic? Because I was enjoying the conversation.


Why did you report me?
Is it because I said your standards for moderation are too strict in my opinion?
What is wrong with that?
It was my opinion.
I think you did the wrong thing.


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btbnnyr
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29 Apr 2015, 4:18 pm

About the topic of understanding autism or BAP in general, there is good reason that I don't post citations in threads, and I have stated it multiple times before on wp. It is because one or few citations are just cherry picking the literature to prove points, and I think that is not a useful method of learning or understanding anything. Instead, it is much better to search the literature yourself, skim through some abstracts and papers, many of which are fairly accessible to laypeople, and get a general idea of the preponderance of evidence on a topic. I have suggested that people do this in the past, but they rarely thought it was a good idea, and I have no idea why. Some people seemed to want to only read sources that agreed with their pre-conceived ideas, but I find that is limiting to understanding things or developing new ideas.


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29 Apr 2015, 4:31 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
About the topic of understanding autism or BAP in general, there is good reason that I don't post citations in threads, and I have stated it multiple times before on wp. It is because one or few citations are just cherry picking the literature to prove points, and I think that is not a useful method of learning or understanding anything. Instead, it is much better to search the literature yourself, skim through some abstracts and papers, many of which are fairly accessible to laypeople, and get a general idea of the preponderance of evidence on a topic. I have suggested that people do this in the past, but they rarely thought it was a good idea, and I have no idea why. Some people seemed to want to only read sources that agreed with their pre-conceived ideas, but I find that is limiting to understanding things or developing new ideas.


That's true. So why don't people go on their own search? It may be because there is just so much information that it's easy to get lost so people would rather read the lone cherry picked paper than try to skim through the 200 hits that google provides.

And so I present a paper in support of your claim that autism is not a single module that people either have or don't. Yes, it's cherry picked.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746421/
from the results:

Quote:
This study identified a range of features which show promise as autism intermediate phenotypes—these personality, social-behavioral, and language characteristics are qualitatively similar to the core features of autism, were more common among relatives of individuals with autism than controls, and expressed in linear fashion across groups believed to vary in genetic liability to autism, suggesting they could likely reflect genetic effects relevant to autism.


This study supports the idea that autism does not exist in a simple binary state where you either have it or you don't. Of course I used "broader autism phenotype" in my search which skews the results towards accepting the existence of BAP. I also used "ncbi" as the other search term in case anybody wants to replicate.

The paper also answers the OP's starting question of "what is BAP?". It's a long and jargoney answer but it's an answer.



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29 Apr 2015, 4:39 pm

On google scholar, if I want to get a quick overview of a topic related to autism, I just open all links on first three to five pages, skim abstracts to see what has been done and what results were found so far. Usually, conflicting reports will show up in first few pages, showing multiple sides of topics, variable findings. It's not needed to do deep search unless I need to know some precise technique for my research projects, in which case I would read methods sections carefully in multiple papers and either integrate some of the things into my projects or go in a completely different direction knowing how my projects are distinct from reported literature.


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tagnacious
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29 Apr 2015, 5:06 pm

Girl_Kitten wrote:
Yup, yup, all of this, but I'll also add that many girls who don't get the support they need are diagnosed with anorexia, but their ASD is missed. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/264666.php


Wow. That was new to me. All of the girls I knew with anorexia were so socially able. I suppose that there are many different problems behind the disorder.

So, the word "autism" is a construct. Its something that we made up and we made have meaning, by defining in official literature, most notably the DSM-5. We've defined it a certain way, and that serves a certain purpose.

If the world were even and gender was not an issue, would the definition be different? Would all of those mother's have official diagnosis? How many fewer women would we have with diagnosis like bipolar, borderline personality, add, anorexia if we saw women's symptoms as equally valid for autism?

On the other hand, maybe we would be better served by a new word to describe a syndrome where we are fine with empathizing but still have pragmatic problems with socialization, major sensory issues, ridged thinking and habits, etc... Maybe girls would be more likely to fall into this catagory but they wouldn't have to do so. The girls with "extreme male brains" could still be labled autistic if that fit them.

One thing is for sure, the term "BAP" would not be this new word. BAP implies that the person has it easier than someone with ASD, like they really aren't impaired and don't need help. Its like, your weaknesses don't lie here, so you don't really need help. And that's not true. Anorexic girls are a perfect example. They look like they have it so together... until they get near death because they've been starving themselves for years.



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29 Apr 2015, 5:33 pm

tagnacious wrote:
One thing is for sure, the term "BAP" would not be this new word. BAP implies that the person has it easier than someone with ASD, like they really aren't impaired and don't need help. Its like, your weaknesses don't lie here, so you don't really need help. And that's not true. Anorexic girls are a perfect example. They look like they have it so together... until they get near death because they've been starving themselves for years.


"BAP" implies that the person's autistic traits do not cause significant impairment. But it certainly does not imply that they don't really need help. It's not like autistic traits are the only things that can cause impairment or that traits must be severe enough to warrant an autism diagnosis before there can be any help. You don't need an autism diagnosis to get counseling.



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29 Apr 2015, 6:55 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Waterfalls wrote:
I didn't mean to be provocative. Just is frustrating that different people see me as having ASD and having BAP and they're quite sure of themselves and I'm just a person to me, it's really weird people always want to label me. The professionals say ASD though. So I get mad why I need another label even though I know it's meant well.


I could certainly be wrong but I kind of get the impression maybe you're not entirely convinced people who say these things mean well....perhaps some do and are ignorant, but ignorant comments don't always come from a place of caring but being wrong sometimes people just have to be right or try to show off their 'knowledge' on a topic. I guess the point is its ok to be bothered when people are ignorant.....you don't have to convince yourself they always mean well.

You're right, the ignorance bothers me. But I truly can't see any negative intent in it. But whether it's with the label BAP or not, it's terribly upsetting to be trying my best, absolutely my best to communicate or understand something and I do so well at enough things that it's somehow not perceived as real when I don't get something. That to me is the BAP concept, the assumption that I'm weird but not impaired enough to actually be unable to manage something. I can manage a great deal, but I'm still knocked down, for instance, if I have to make small talk for too long.



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29 Apr 2015, 8:24 pm

STOP making frivolous reports.
The report button is there for the purpose of reporting broken rules, not "They said something I don't like so now I'm going to throw a tantrum.".


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29 Apr 2015, 8:38 pm

Waterfalls wrote:
One time I told someone from a forum that I have AS and she said no, I have BAP. She said because I cared and showed I cared about other people, and what they felt.

You should not let some anonymous person from a forum define you. A combination of the expert who diagnosed you and your expertise about yourself should decide how you choose to label yourself.


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29 Apr 2015, 8:45 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Waterfalls wrote:
One time I told someone from a forum that I have AS and she said no, I have BAP. She said because I cared and showed I cared about other people, and what they felt.

You should not let some anonymous person from a forum define you. A combination of the expert who diagnosed you and your expertise about yourself should decide how you choose to label yourself.

You're right. It's hard, I'm used to trying so hard to keep people happy but I don't want them defining me. Thank you.



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29 Apr 2015, 9:00 pm

Who_Am_I wrote:
STOP making frivolous reports.
The report button is there for the purpose of reporting broken rules, not "They said something I don't like so now I'm going to throw a tantrum.".


Thank you for letting me know how these forums go.

For the record, these are your own rules:

"Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not."

Accusing me of "throwing a tantrum" is a personal attack.

Accusing another user of being stupid (I forget the exact wording, but that was the idea) because he didn't provide proof of his ideas is a personal attack.

This is not a safe place. I will be taking my energies elsewhere. Again, I thank you for letting me know the truth before I became too attached to this place.



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29 Apr 2015, 10:20 pm

Waterfalls wrote:
It's an effort to acknowledge that there's something different in some people that seems to be related to autism, but which no one considers to be autism.
Isn't that PDD-NOS :?:


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29 Apr 2015, 11:33 pm

Well, this certainly was a first. In my 2+ years on WP, I have never seen:

a) Someone threaten to report someone else w/in a thread
b) A moderator tell someone to stop reporting others