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The_Walrus
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19 May 2015, 4:52 am

Grebels wrote:
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The worship of him by medieval scholars set rational thought back by centuries.


You surprise me Walrus.

From what I have been taught and can find using google search Aristotle influence Renaissance
this philosopher and his school had a very considerable influence on the time following the Medieval period. I would like to know why you consider this time period, the Renaissance, to be Medieval. It was a beginning of rational thought going back to Greek philosophers. This is important because the Renaissance was at the foundation of so much that is Western civilisation to this day. You have made a remarkable claim without an appropriate source.

Perhaps cato who seems to be doing Philosophy as a specialist subject would care to join us in this conversation.

I think you are somewhat misrepresenting my position. I did not say "the Renaissance is Medieval".

The bulk of my point has been made by others - Aristotle was a bad empiricist. The Renaissance is broadly characterised by people like Galileo and Bacon finally realising that empirical observations must be tested. The philosophers most influenced by Aristotle at the time are not considered important today. People like More and Machiavelli are not normally considered Aristotelian.



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19 May 2015, 5:42 am

That Aristotle got some things quite wrong owing to the limits of available technology etc. does not in any way disprove his fundamental premise that reality is an objective fact and that the purpose of investigation is to gain knowledge and understanding of it. Without that premise (that reality is objective, consistent and, therefore, intelligible) real science is impossible. "Science" would be a mix of fancy, Voodoo magic, supposition, political convenience etc. such as the Darwinist superstitions.

Reality is easily demonstrated to be composed of more than mere matter and energy. Organic life is a perfect and simple example of that.

Quantum Mechanics does not in any way prove that reality is not real and thus can be discarded or ignored. QM is only that Newtonian physics does not apply at the sub-atomic level. Gravity, mass, inertia, chemistry etc. is still part of reality...

It is worth remembering that all the physical sciences are but disciplines within the great science of philosophy. An absurd proposal in biology is wrong, for example; there is no cop-out clause.



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19 May 2015, 5:50 am

The_Walrus wrote:
People like More and Machiavelli are not normally considered Aristotelian.
Nor are they considered philosophers in the real sense of the word.

Empiricism is not synonymous with science. In the science of logic there are other ways to test the validity of an hypothesis.



The_Walrus
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19 May 2015, 5:59 am

Oldavid wrote:

Reality is easily demonstrated to be composed of more than mere matter and energy. Organic life is a perfect and simple example of that.

Do go on...



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19 May 2015, 3:30 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Oldavid wrote:

Reality is easily demonstrated to be composed of more than mere matter and energy. Organic life is a perfect and simple example of that.

Do go on...
Do go back and read this thread... it's what it's about.



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19 May 2015, 4:32 pm

Oldavid wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Oldavid wrote:

Reality is easily demonstrated to be composed of more than mere matter and energy. Organic life is a perfect and simple example of that.

Do go on...
Do go back and read this thread... it's what it's about.
it's hard to tell what you're referencing with aghogday's flowery prose everywhere, perhaps you could say what you meant instead of trying to hastily exit.



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20 May 2015, 12:49 am


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20 May 2015, 6:13 am

David as I have stated many times before your approach to science is more in line with the Natural Philosophers like Aristotle. For them, and yourself, logic rather than experiment is the trump card in gaining knowledge. To you, life spontaneously arising and the evolution that followed, makes no logical sense, so therefore it matters not what evidence supporting these hypotheses and scientific theories is presented, it must be wrong. You have said as much on several occasions. Well david you can debate all you like how many teeth a horse has, we will simply take a look and count them. I have just returned from the UK where amongst other things I visited the Natural History and Science Museums. Apart from the awe of seeing so many examples from the fossil record, and the story of human knowledge and invention, I was also awed by the monumental amount of stupidity and ignorance it must take to deny all this.


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20 May 2015, 8:45 am

There is a time in my life, as a straight A student, graduating 11 out of a class of 381; going on to graduate with three college degrees, one in Health Science, one in Anthropology, and one in Social Sciences Interdisciplinary, and graduate school in social sciences; before working three part time jobs putting myself through college necessitates the economic reality of finding a real job, and moving through a government career to upper federal pay grade level of service; that I 'think' my type of knowledge is somehow superior to those who surround me.

It takes me almost five decades to come to realize how wrong I am to believe that crystalized knowledge and the mechanical ways of cognition to obtain that knowledge, while useful, is not nearly as important, in this thing called social mammal cooperative life; as either the merits or rewards of social cognition, which includes all ways of living with human empathy, both cognitive and affective; as well as all things human related to imagination and creativity; as well as all things related to human being, by way of physical intelligence, including regulating emotion; integrating senses; and gaining greater REAL cognitive executive functioning through greater focus, short term working memory; as well as the expanding of the science recognized sixth sense now of proprioception, where one not only sees the environment but feels it throughout the body, in mind and body balance.

The truth of the matter is, our culture through the interjection of mechanical cognition leaning activities, served up on a full cultural plate almost from birth; rather than the social cooperation that grows a human as being in flesh and blood human interaction with a tree of imagination and creativity growing through an environment of little as opposed to overload of senses in TV and other electronic ways of input of human; rather than output of human in kind and loving social cooperative ways, as humans truly are naturally evolved to live is creating an epigenetically cultural environment produced being that is less human, more and more as time goes by.

And yes, science shows this is becoming truth in at least some empirical ways of measures of empathy of college students, with empathy dropping off at around 30% over the course of the last several decades. And then there are studies that show that the average attention span of human beings is at around that of a gold fish; that means the chances of anyone reading this well thought out and deep analysis here of mine, and actually getting this far, is closer to Zero than 10 percent, among the average reader, with the attention of a gold fish, in shallow waters of thinking.

The 'Twitter World' is a sad one, a world of snippets of related information here and there. The ability to free associate many topics of deep information and consolidate that into one tapestry of deeper ways of expression is an art I refuse to leave behind, in a culture that is growing shallower and shallower as we speak.

While it is nice to be able to spit back facts and not much of anything else;

That's not human life; any computer can do that.

Human life is the art of connecting to other humans being as evolved for social cooperation in flesh and blood ways, where non-verbal communication is the core of reciprocal social communication as evolved for all social animals, including human beings anywhere from 60 to 90% of total effective reciprocal social communication.

And Art is the way human beings have always expressed the existential comfort of understanding they are one with other humans and the rest of nature, flowing with it, and not a static object separated from it, in illusory lies of both general culture and Abrahamic religions understood as science, rather than metaphors of free verse poetry in both the new revised Bibles and the Koran.

The height of human ignorance is no longer functioning as a human being.

The height of human ignorance is a society looking for a quick fix pill and diagnosis of one over-reaching label like Autism to explain away a culture gone insane, overall, in mechanical over social cognition ways of learning in negative epigenetic impact making humans more machines than caring, yes, unconditionally loving creatures, as evolved as such when in mind and body balance with nature.

So yes, one thing about my college experience, where I truly excel, is my innate understanding that something really horrible that I cannot quite put my finger on is going in my life; a stop of plans to go into a more lucrative major of money making power, to attempt to find out why the lives of my much 'poorer' peers in terms of a standard IQ like mine of over 130, live so freely, easily and happily; while my life is so frigging complicated and empty as compared to theirs.

Yes, those majors of health science, anthropology, and social sciences interdisciplinary will eventually be in part, and art, what saves my life, to return from a robot life, back to what I am simply evolved, for, as human being, in mind and body balanced way with flesh and blood humans and the rest of Mother Nature aka GOD.

So yes, in my case at least, the height of human ignorance is turning into an Autistic person as mechanical cognition leaning robot; rather than a highly evolved social mammal with excelling ability to connect to other flesh and blood human beings, and truly thrive in unconditional love life.

Really, more or less, this is truly what all enlightened and awakened philosophers, who escape cultural ways of mechanical cognition in lies of robot ways of life are trying to tell their counterparts in history.

But from my experience when one lives in that 'other place' of what truly can be literal human hell, as compared to 'NORMAL' touchy feely life of human being in love with both other humans and nature as whole; that is REAL ignorance; and whether or not Mr. Oldavid understand the P's and Q's of evolution; the greatest loss of human intelligence is in emotional intelligence everywhere we look in life, for those of us with new age old age eyes of evolution to even see it.

This emotional intelligence is fluid intelligence, an intelligence much greater, overall, for human survival, as classically evolved; compared to crystallized intelligence that is largely a byproduct of written abstract recorded language; collective intelligence; and complex cultures; that as we speak are having the negative epigenetic effect and AFFECT in just one life-time to make otherwise normally evolving human being into social lacking mechanical cognition robots; and in at least some cases, this thing called Autism is a direct result of culture in negative epigenetic impact, rather than an innately produced issue as human being is born to be.


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20 May 2015, 5:34 pm

I knew you weren't completely daft, Ghogsy. You make some good AFFECTIVE sense when you're not shouting.

However, confining yourself to that dimension denies the intellectual dimension the capacity to achieve its end. The purpose of the intellect is to perceive truth (as in cold, hard reality). You started off badly in that pursuit. Health science, Anthropology and Social Science are waffly, political conveniences that change more often than, and as, you change your clothes to suit the occasion.



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20 May 2015, 5:57 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
David as I have stated many times before your approach to science is more in line with the Natural Philosophers like Aristotle. For them, and yourself, logic rather than experiment is the trump card in gaining knowledge. To you, life spontaneously arising and the evolution that followed, makes no logical sense, so therefore it matters not what evidence supporting these hypotheses and scientific theories is presented, it must be wrong. You have said as much on several occasions. Well david you can debate all you like how many teeth a horse has, we will simply take a look and count them. I have just returned from the UK where amongst other things I visited the Natural History and Science Museums. Apart from the awe of seeing so many examples from the fossil record, and the story of human knowledge and invention, I was also awed by the monumental amount of stupidity and ignorance it must take to deny all this.
Yair, well, your ideology is neither logically nor experimentally justifiable. There is no "evidence supporting these hypotheses and scientific theories". The existence of fossils only indicates that some plants and animals, not known to exist today, were buried in tidal waves of mud. That does not imply, logically or experimentally, that life can, or does, spontaneously arise from inanimate slime and spontaneously develop into the likes of you.

Natural History and Science Museums are, I suppose, "proof" that "Things CAN go better with Coke".

Your "science", Arty, has nothing at all to do with either logic or experiment.



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20 May 2015, 6:08 pm

Oldavid wrote:
I knew you weren't completely daft, Ghogsy. You make some good AFFECTIVE sense when you're not shouting.

However, confining yourself to that dimension denies the intellectual dimension the capacity to achieve its end. The purpose of the intellect is to perceive truth (as in cold, hard reality). You started off badly in that pursuit. Health science, Anthropology and Social Science are waffly, political conveniences that change more often than, and as, you change your clothes to suit the occasion.


Ha! I don't agree. But that's okay; different strokes and all of that..:)


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20 May 2015, 6:35 pm

Am called away; and back for additional info; with the untimely edit
function out of tow..;)

Ha! I don't agree. But that's okay; different strokes and all of that..:)

Humans create their reality as they go; as clearly indicated in science; and that's
a fact my friend; that you may not be aware of; but never the less, it IS Scientific
method derived FACT. Perhaps, you have some reading to do.

If you like I can provide scores of links in research that prove my point;
without doubt. But somehow, I do not think you will read them.
And that my friend comes from my advanced form of cognitive
empathy, with smiles and winks, as well..:)

Seriously, if you see something you know is not there, like
something out of the corner of your eye; on a sleepy
night on a dark road; that should be evidence enough
that what you perceive as reality, is not close to
whatever objective reality, if any objective
quantum reality, actually
exists.

That's just common sense;
Humans have been getting by creating
their own best reality for survival for
much longer than text has been available
to suggest they
do
not.

The truth lives in
flesh and blood.

Text often lies;
wittingly or NOT.


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20 May 2015, 6:48 pm

Oldavid wrote:
Your "science", Arty, has nothing at all to do with either logic or experiment.


Of course not Davy, you just keep telling yourself that. :roll:


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20 May 2015, 11:51 pm

aghogday wrote:
Humans create their reality as they go;
You prove my point.

Reality is what it is and completely independent of anyone's emotional or ideological fancies.



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20 May 2015, 11:56 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Your "science", Arty, has nothing at all to do with either logic or experiment.


Of course not Davy, you just keep telling yourself that. :roll:
Logic and experiment says it is so. I don't need to tell myself anything.