The Bible. Myth or Reality?
26 May 2015, 12:41 pm
Cash__ wrote:
All gnostics claim they have the correct knowledge (gnosis). Yet, here they are arguing amongst themselves what this knowledge even is?
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
Who here said they have the correct knowledge?
What correct knowledge are your referring to?
You should remember that those who wrote most of what you know of Gnostic Christians are the ones who killed us and burned our scriptures. If you wish to trust those who helped usher in the Dark Ages of free thought and the Inquisition, then by all means do, but if you want to know of my religion, which is one of the few that is not homophobic and misogynous, then better to ask instead of making foolish statements.
Start with this.
A bit of history and then a mindset and method to do so that I promote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D
The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded
This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y
When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.
Regards
DL
26 May 2015, 1:26 pm
Cash__ wrote:
All gnostics claim they have the correct knowledge (gnosis). Yet, here they are arguing amongst themselves what this knowledge even is?
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
I do not claim to have the "correct" knowledge although some Gnostics do make this claim. I seek knowledge as a way of dealing with the material world. It's all very practical. We are all, each, on our own journey through this material existence. We are spirits inside of physical bodies, spirits in a material world. This is what I gather from what I see of life. Even people who pretend to live entirely on the physical level have spiritual leanings.
The point of gnosis is not to ram beliefs and opinions down people's throats the way Evangelical Christians do but to encourage each one to discover gnosis on their life journey.
Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 26 May 2015, 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ban-Dodger
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26 May 2015, 1:32 pm
The original Gnostics were never an organised group and in fact, even amongst themselves, had competing beliefs. I have translated copies of the Nag Hammadi, and in reading the connations by the scholars, what can be inferred was that there were certainly various schools of thought, such as Valentinian, etc.
The gnostics of that time included, not only Christian-Gnostics, but also Atheist-Gnostics, Agnostic-Gnostics, Hindu-Gnostics, Buddhist-Gnostics, Islamic-Gnostics, Scientific-Gnostics, Philosophical-Gnostics, basically, anybody who dared to "question" or "study" anything outside of their pre-defined labels/identities could be considered a Gnostic...
Cash__ wrote:
All gnostics claim they have the correct knowledge (gnosis). Yet, here they are arguing amongst themselves what this knowledge even is?
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
Now for a Rod C. Davis video...
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26 May 2015, 1:35 pm
Ban-Dodger wrote:
The original Gnostics were never an organised group and in fact, even amongst themselves, had competing beliefs. I have translated copies of the Nag Hammadi, and in reading the connations by the scholars, what can be inferred was that there were certainly various schools of thought, such as Valentinian, etc.
The gnostics of that time included, not only Christian-Gnostics, but also Atheist-Gnostics, Agnostic-Gnostics, Hindu-Gnostics, Buddhist-Gnostics, Islamic-Gnostics, Scientific-Gnostics, Philosophical-Gnostics, basically, anybody who dared to "question" or "study" anything outside of their pre-defined labels/identities could be considered a Gnostic...
Now for a Rod C. Davis video...
The gnostics of that time included, not only Christian-Gnostics, but also Atheist-Gnostics, Agnostic-Gnostics, Hindu-Gnostics, Buddhist-Gnostics, Islamic-Gnostics, Scientific-Gnostics, Philosophical-Gnostics, basically, anybody who dared to "question" or "study" anything outside of their pre-defined labels/identities could be considered a Gnostic...
Cash__ wrote:
All gnostics claim they have the correct knowledge (gnosis). Yet, here they are arguing amongst themselves what this knowledge even is?
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
Now for a Rod C. Davis video...
You could say it is possible Christianity sprang from these Gnostic prophets who lived among Jews and Pagans and that Christos was never physically incarnate but his energy had followers and apostles who yearned for truth.
Sweetleaf
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26 May 2015, 1:51 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Probably a bit of both...I mean for one it was initially a collection of various ancient scrolls/documents that where eventually put together into the singular bible, so it wasn't even written as one book and had various authors so it would not make sense for it to be 100% consistent. I imagine some things in it are just stories, other things might be historical accounts written from the perspective of the writer of that segment....also it should be taken into account the ancient mindset it is quite possible things that happened and do have a more 'scientific' explanation where described without that kind of language. For instance say a group of ancients saw a modern day plane flying through just hypothetically....are they going to say 'one day a large plane flew over' or are they going to say' a large bird like creature that spits fire and makes a large roar as it passes by without flapping its wings' or something to that effect? and perhaps think God sent it as some kind of omen or something. I mean keep in mind when european settlers came to the american continents the natives did not see/perceive the ships until they where essentially up on the beach they initially just noticed more ripples in the water because they had no concept of a large ship on the ocean let alone the white men that came off of them. Though Columbus was an a** and enslaved people and killed them off all simultaneously...at least the Vikings when they discovered the northern hemisphere of america left the natives too it mostly after finding they met their match in battle. Anyways back to the bible.
So a collection of myths, human accounts of events(which of course consider how they may have perceived things in ancient times and general human error of reporting events 100% accurately), also some could be hallucinations at the time things like psychosis may not have been understood and depending on if people got any toxins/molds or other weird things in their foods that could have caused psychotic like states, delirium so there is that potential factor in some of the stories as well.
And to go way out of the box what if.....aliens, lol. There are a few accounts that seem to describe large and strange things in the sky which if those ones aren't myths, hallucinations or misunderstandings of weather phenomenons and what not perhaps extra-terrestrial space crafts cannot be ruled out. Then again why would anyone from another planet really care so much about the goings on, on this one or even bother to stop here. Or someone figured out time travel lol.
I have tried reading the bible literally and it really makes no sense that way...the numerous translations its undergone also don't help the flow/smoothness of the writing, very choppy...hard to follow and lots and lots of lists of names I mean good god how many Abrahams are there.
So a collection of myths, human accounts of events(which of course consider how they may have perceived things in ancient times and general human error of reporting events 100% accurately), also some could be hallucinations at the time things like psychosis may not have been understood and depending on if people got any toxins/molds or other weird things in their foods that could have caused psychotic like states, delirium so there is that potential factor in some of the stories as well.
And to go way out of the box what if.....aliens, lol. There are a few accounts that seem to describe large and strange things in the sky which if those ones aren't myths, hallucinations or misunderstandings of weather phenomenons and what not perhaps extra-terrestrial space crafts cannot be ruled out. Then again why would anyone from another planet really care so much about the goings on, on this one or even bother to stop here. Or someone figured out time travel lol.
I have tried reading the bible literally and it really makes no sense that way...the numerous translations its undergone also don't help the flow/smoothness of the writing, very choppy...hard to follow and lots and lots of lists of names I mean good god how many Abrahams are there.
Well put. Thanks.
Do you see it as portraying a moral God or one who is not s moral?
Regards
DL
It's hard to say...exactly, of course there are plenty of things that are described as happening in the name of god I certainly think are horribly immoral, but where those things actually in the name of god? Or where humans just using that. Though of course the thing with the story where the father is about to kill his son because god commanded it, and then is stopped by god...the moral of that is 'it's good you where willing to do anything I ask' well to me that is not moral..If i was in charge of the test I'd fail them, because I'd think they should be willing to disobey the all powerful deity if it meant doing the right thing.
Have you ever seen Pans Labyrinth? well at the end of that there is a scene where the main character a girl has to pass 3 tests to reach her rightful place as princess of the underworld or something the last test is the being testing her demands she kill her baby brother because innocent blood is needed......if she refuses she can never return home to her rightful place. Well she refuses and that was the test, she risked it all to do the right thing....rather than having been willing to kill her brother and then being rewarded. Well I like what that story says a lot more than Mr. I'd even kill my own son just to satisfy my god.
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We won't go back.
26 May 2015, 1:56 pm
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope. Romans Ch15 NIV
I think Paul is not telling us to take everything in the OT literally. We can learn some serious lessons from the figure or metaphor. As for me, I'm on a journey and don't want to get more involved with this discussion.
Sweetleaf
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26 May 2015, 1:59 pm
Campin_Cat wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Only those of faith will be literalists.
Actually, I am a person of faith----but, I would NOT say that I'm a literalist.
The Bible was written how many thousands of years, ago? (rhetorical) What's that "thing" called, "message decay"? (rhetorical) I'm thinking because the Bible was written so many years, ago, it gives an all-new meaning to the phrase "message decay".
I have a TON of Bible-study books, because I want to learn everything I can, about what I believe----but, I DON'T think every word, is EXACT----but, I DO feel the overall message has lasted throughout the millennia. I also believe that there are several books, MISSING from the Bible. I also consider "lost-in-translation" to be a cause of our not having / getting, maybe, everything that was originally written.
So, in answer to your title question: I DO believe the Bible is reality----BUT, maybe not EXACT, or TOTAL reality.
@Ana: GOOD posts!
I once knew a methodist pastor who had copies of many of those missing books, I never did get the chance to really look at them though. But when I was in highschool I used to go to her house a couple days a week after school to do homework..can't remember quite why. She had been the pastor at the church I went to not sure if she still was at that time though.
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We won't go back.
26 May 2015, 3:09 pm
Romans Ch15 NIV wrote:
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.
Let's consider this quote for a second. Looking at it, it seems completely harmless and sound however, what is really being said here is follow what the ancients say or have no endurance. You won't make it in the world. You couldn't possibly have the ability to figure anything out if not for what is in this so you better not deviate from what's here if you know what is good for you! This can be a scary thing to read and it can cause a lot of anxiety when in reality, this is NOT the sole source of wisdom, understanding, salvation, deliverance, or truth. This is just one grand of sand on the beach.
There is no need for anxiety or fear.
26 May 2015, 3:58 pm
Grebels wrote:
True, we should be free from anxiety or fear. Paul seems to have been. However, we should consider what those times were like. I'm not sure how I'd cope. I do think that Paul wasn't so narrow in his outlook. That's the evidence I see in his writing.
Saint Paul met with the challenge of reconciliation between members of varying churches so he had to figure out ways to appease them. Just like today, I am sure there were splinters of traditionalists and zealots who knew every word of the Law by heart, knew their prophets and their stories and would admonish anyone who contradicted them.
One of my favorite Biblical stories will always be that of Lazarus the Leper. Christians today misinterpret that story and it's incredible they cannot discern the real reason it is included. Christos was prepared to be sure Lazarus sat at Abraham's bosom, where the Pharisees saw themselves when they died. Lazarus was definitely not the one they would see, in their mind, so when Christos placed him there after his long, painful struggle on Earth, it was quite shocking and upsetting! Nowadays certain Evangelicals think this story means go out and tell others what they are doing wrong because it will be too late to do it when you die and you will be thirsting in the ravages of a burning hell, but actually it is really about rich people taking care of the least among them, the lepers and outcasts. When they die, they cannot take their money with them, so why not recirculate it while they are living and help unfortunates. It's about being philanthropic. So here we have one example of Christos's energy which involves charity and the gnostic Paul seems in tune with this energy since he talks about charity like it is the most important quality.
I find it disheartening when Evangelicals use this illustration of philanthropy and mercy as an excuse to go out and emotionally abuse the distressed, while, at the same time, ignoring all of life's outcasts just like the Pharisee in the story.
This revelation inspires me to reveal Christos's true meaning at a more fevered pace than before.
I only hope one day the devout will awaken to the true energy and create an environment that fosters kindness and nurturing. Look at how Christos gave all the loaves of bread and fish to people who were hungry!
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26 May 2015, 4:48 pm
According to my paradigm-grid, I regard fear as being a sinful-emotion, for that matter, all negative-emotions are sinful.
Grebels wrote:
True, we should be free from anxiety or fear. Paul seems to have been. However, we should consider what those times were like. I'm not sure how I'd cope. I do think that Paul wasn't so narrow in his outlook. That's the evidence I see in his writing.
They who act out of anger are sinning. A man who is full of anger is therefore also thus full of sin.
Many sinful men exist on earth due to being callously angry men.
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26 May 2015, 5:06 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Quote:
I'd fully agree with your definitions of it, and also add that I'm not a Gnostic - rather the thoughts I was expressing regarding my own beliefs are fundamentally Hermetic in their philosophic orientation. The two, Gnostcism and Hermeticism, are worlds apart on the issues of dualism, incarnate existence, and matter.
Especially when our friend does not understand what he is talking about.
Which is that?
GnosticBishop wrote:
He says that matter is not good yet Gnostic Christian Jesus says it is.
He says he is a Gnostic Christian but looks without instead of within.
Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will
precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is
outside of you. [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves]
will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you
will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."
----------------------------
The modern Gnostic Christian view on evil matter is that matter is not evil. It is evolving perfection.
We never really believed matter was evil but unfortunately the language of that day used the term evil. Gnostic Christians could not believe matter was evil because we believe that we have a spark of God within our bodies, (matter), and the kingdom of God is both within us and around us as Jesus taught.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you and around you.
Gnostic Christians of that day were into duality of matter and non-matter. As above so below.
Above would have been seen as perfect while here below, at that time, Gnostic Christians did not see perfection. It was thus said that it was good above and evil below.
Modern Gnostic thinking has evolved somewhat and we now say that matter is evolving perfection. Many think this quote was not written seriously but to a Gnostic Christian it will be understandable as a truth.
Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”
This means that we all live in the best of all possible world and that is why modern Gnostic Christians call what we have around us, evolving perfection.
Be you a believer or not, the notion that things cannot be other than what they are and are, evolving perfection is irrefutable even though it is a fairly hard concept to grasp. This does not mean that we cannot improve as we each evolve further.
He says he is a Gnostic Christian but looks without instead of within.
Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will
precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is
outside of you. [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves]
will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you
will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."
----------------------------
The modern Gnostic Christian view on evil matter is that matter is not evil. It is evolving perfection.
We never really believed matter was evil but unfortunately the language of that day used the term evil. Gnostic Christians could not believe matter was evil because we believe that we have a spark of God within our bodies, (matter), and the kingdom of God is both within us and around us as Jesus taught.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you and around you.
Gnostic Christians of that day were into duality of matter and non-matter. As above so below.
Above would have been seen as perfect while here below, at that time, Gnostic Christians did not see perfection. It was thus said that it was good above and evil below.
Modern Gnostic thinking has evolved somewhat and we now say that matter is evolving perfection. Many think this quote was not written seriously but to a Gnostic Christian it will be understandable as a truth.
Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”
This means that we all live in the best of all possible world and that is why modern Gnostic Christians call what we have around us, evolving perfection.
Be you a believer or not, the notion that things cannot be other than what they are and are, evolving perfection is irrefutable even though it is a fairly hard concept to grasp. This does not mean that we cannot improve as we each evolve further.
I'll admit the word 'Gnostic' got beaten up quite a bit when it was associated very speficially with sects like the Ophites, the Valentinians, the Sethites, etc.. and became symbolic of a Manichaean or Cathar type of stance on matter.
The way it tends to divide in terminology these days - you have Judao-Christian esotericism that leans toward panentheistic monist interpretations of the bible, to a broader extent that often gets termed 'Hermetic'.
On the flip side of the coin the Da Vinci Code type stuff, Pistis Sophia, Nag Hammadi texts, for the most part these aim toward an esotericism where there's a severe confusion between creator and a snapped-separate being referred to as the demiurge. Per the Tripartite Tractate the primary archon, after Sophia made her mistake of biting off more than she could chew and creating something of a blended nature, looked back at the pleroma and believed it was seeing a reflection of itself thus declaring itself God.
The modern Hermetic view, very much so, is one where it's not just evolution of all consciousness (ie. monatomic, mineral, plant, animal, man, angel choir, etc.) but it's a universe with nothing inimical. Lots of pain in the process of the evolution and a wealth of grueling life lessons no doubt but but we're brooded over by something that loves us far more tenderly and gently than we could fathom under our circumstances. YHVH, the 'I AM that I AM' is both the Mother Goddess and Father God. It's Osiris and Isis, Christ and Sophia (in the Solomonic context - incarnate as Mary), it's as much the Father God of the Hebrews as it's the Mother Goddess of the wiccans.
When people speak of the world as an archonic trap they're talking about something that the pleroma overlooks, being far more powerful than Sophia and far more knowledgeable just let the kenoma be, and the aspiration in that sense is to outrun it - if by reincarnating to gain enough wisdom to leave then it's that; it's the Eastern-style escape plan in Western garment.
I'm not going to say there aren't a lot of shades of gray in between, technically as I recall Martinism seems to very much sit in the gray area and it's a system that I've wanted to get to know more about just in terms of how much it's claimed that to whatever extent you'll wrack your brain on the lessons you'll wrack your heart (inflame thyself with prayer) far more so - which sounds like a wonderful challenge. It's just that, when people throw out the word Gnosticism - usually the first person people are going to think of is Elaine Pagels, thus the word has come somewhat to equal a Manichean/Cathar type of mysticism by way of texts like the Nag Hammadi.
_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin
26 May 2015, 5:19 pm
Bythos, Bishop!
GnosticBishop wrote:
Especially when our friend does not understand what he is talking about.
Don't worry, Techstep, he means me. Hehe. GB and I are just on two different sides of the gnostic coin. *shrugs*. No need to get salty about it, GB. We are just going to look like two Gnostics who can't get along. Then people will assume that's all there is to Gnosticism, when, in fact, it is a whole other world of discovery.
GB - Where do you get this idea matter is evolving perfection? I see no evidence of this. I see no evidence of perfection, period, anywhere. It could exist out there and according to Pleroma, it does but it's not here.
26 May 2015, 5:29 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Cash__ wrote:
All gnostics claim they have the correct knowledge (gnosis). Yet, here they are arguing amongst themselves what this knowledge even is?
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
Who here said they have the correct knowledge?
What correct knowledge are your referring to?
You should remember that those who wrote most of what you know of Gnostic Christians are the ones who killed us and burned our scriptures. If you wish to trust those who helped usher in the Dark Ages of free thought and the Inquisition, then by all means do, but if you want to know of my religion, which is one of the few that is not homophobic and misogynous, then better to ask instead of making foolish statements.
Start with this.
A bit of history and then a mindset and method to do so that I promote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D
The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded
This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y
When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.
Regards
DL
I am very familiar with gnosticism. I am also not of the group that persecuted them. I find both orthodox and gnostic to be just as ridiculous.
The word gnostic or gnosis means knowledge. So to say your gnostic but that you don't have the knowledge of the truth is a contradiction. Gnosis and knowledge are the same word. It'd be like a Christian saying that they don't have christ. Or a follower of baalism not having baal. Change your name then.
26 May 2015, 5:40 pm
Cash__ wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Cash__ wrote:
All gnostics claim they have the correct knowledge (gnosis). Yet, here they are arguing amongst themselves what this knowledge even is?
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
So the gnostics don't have the knowledge (gnosis).
Ironic, isn't it.
Who here said they have the correct knowledge?
What correct knowledge are your referring to?
You should remember that those who wrote most of what you know of Gnostic Christians are the ones who killed us and burned our scriptures. If you wish to trust those who helped usher in the Dark Ages of free thought and the Inquisition, then by all means do, but if you want to know of my religion, which is one of the few that is not homophobic and misogynous, then better to ask instead of making foolish statements.
Start with this.
A bit of history and then a mindset and method to do so that I promote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D
The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded
This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y
When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.
Regards
DL
I am very familiar with gnosticism. I am also not of the group that persecuted them. I find both orthodox and gnostic to be just as ridiculous.
The word gnostic or gnosis means knowledge. So to say your gnostic but that you don't have the knowledge of the truth is a contradiction. Gnosis and knowledge are the same word. It'd be like a Christian saying that they don't have christ. Or a follower of baalism not having baal. Change your name then.
The Gnostic has knowledge. I have it. It might not be the same knowledge other Gnostics have but yes, I have it.
