White guy kills multiple people in black church

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Fugu
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26 Jun 2015, 10:30 am

Dox47 wrote:
*sigh*

Unless there is someone else here with a gunsmithing degree and years of experience in the field, I think I can safely say that I'm the only one here with any actual gun designing experience
appealing to authority is a fallacy fyi.
Quote:
, and "to kill" is not one of the design parameters, and would be irrelevant if it were, as plenty of things used as weapons were not designed as such. Sure, the majority of guns are designed as weapons and virtually all of them, with the exception of some really odd long range target rifles, can be used as such, but that's no different than any bow or crossbow and a quite a lot of edged weapons.
"Guns aren't designed to kill! oh wait, they are..."
bows are harder to operate than your average gun, and it's gonna be really difficult to throw a knife or other edged weapon 100ft and hit your target, much less kill anything.
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Not that I think the average dead person cares much about whether the implement of their demise was "designed to kill" or not anyway. Really, it's a stupid argument made by people who don't know what they're talking about, one that I've debunked numerous times here as it's mysteriously popular amongst the uninformed, so hopefully we can dispense with it.
ok, what functions do guns have that do not involve propelling metal towards a target?
Quote:
Further, is anyone who is spouting off about the NRA actually a member? Know any members personally? Have any specialized knowledge of the organization not gained through the media? Up until the mid 90's, the NRA was loathed by many gun owners, known as 'Negotiates Rights Away' due to their habit of appeasing the antis in the hope of staving off more draconian laws, and it took an internal coup in the organization to change that.
it's 2015, hope this helps.
Quote:
Gun owners don't get their opinions from the NRA, the NRA gets its opinions from gun owners, who, strangely enough, don't tend to like pointless laws pushed by ignorant know-nothings who hold them in contempt. Even today, the NRA is grudgingly respected because they're good at lobbying, but few genuinely love the group, they need to ditch LaPierre, they need to do better at minority outreach, and they need to stop pussyfooting around with stuff like NFA reform, to name but a few complaints. This is one of those things that people who don't own guns never seem able to wrap their heads around concerning those of us who do; we really like guns, and no one needs to twist our arms or invoke some paranoid scenario to convince us to buy them.
"paranoid scenario" = Things that have happened in reality?? :roll:
Quote:

Also, there's nothing paranoid about worrying about people coming for your guns when people repeatedly try to do just that, even when they use dishonest, loaded language like "assault weapons" or "high capacity" to describe what they want to ban. You want to ban guns I own, i.e. you are in fact 'coming for my guns'. Treating people who disagree with you as if they are stupid is seldom a persuasive strategy, especially when you can't even accurately define what you're actually talking about.
that's a very shiny strawman you have there, did it take long to build it? (I didn't say anything about banning guns)
also, "assault weapons" was defined in law by the 103rd Congress(link) as any gun that has the following:

(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept
a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of—
‘‘(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
‘‘(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon;
‘‘(iii) a bayonet mount;
‘‘(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed
to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
‘‘(v) a grenade launcher;
Quote:
In the same vein, please spare me any further talk of "gun safety" when you mean "gun control"; again, everyone knows what you're talking about, and it only underlines the dishonesty of the anti-gun side to use such sleight of mouth.
please spare me your obvious strawmen, I never mentioned either of those.



Last edited by Fugu on 26 Jun 2015, 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kraichgauer
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26 Jun 2015, 10:43 am

Last night, the Charleston church, after going through the trauma of having nine of their members murdered by a racist extremist, now have found that their church building has been set ablaze. It is considered an act of arson. People are sick with hate.


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ASPartOfMe
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26 Jun 2015, 10:50 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Last night, the Charleston church, after going through the trauma of having nine of their members murdered by a racist extremist, now have found that their church building has been set ablaze. It is considered an act of arson. People are sick with hate.




It's a different church located in in Charlotte, NC not Charleston, SC
A black church in North Carolina was deliberately set ablaze, officials say


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Kraichgauer
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26 Jun 2015, 2:25 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Last night, the Charleston church, after going through the trauma of having nine of their members murdered by a racist extremist, now have found that their church building has been set ablaze. It is considered an act of arson. People are sick with hate.




It's a different church located in in Charlotte, NC not Charleston, SC
A black church in North Carolina was deliberately set ablaze, officials say


Then the initial report I read was wrong. :oops:


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26 Jun 2015, 11:44 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I'm a riler, not a rilee. I just think it's fun to poke holes in people like yours' lack of knowledge and wisdom on this subject and the way you all constantly dodge the big questions and create your own facts.

What are the big questions then?

Like with the rise of gun sales and ownership the gun involved death rate hasn't gone up proportionally.

Quote:
We have established that neither of us believes concealed guns will always provide the ability defense oneself. (Or at least, I hope we have.)

They do provide the ability in terms of a tool but the user has to have thier s**t in one boot and have a window of opportunity in which to effectively employ said gun.

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If I were an enjoyer of guns, I would be concerned about their prohibition.

Not really an issue at the time. People for the most part seem to have stopped drinking the "gunz-r-bad" koolaid.

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I would also be pro gun safety education.
Me too in the form of an annual class for every year of K12 public education. No compulsory training and licensing to buy/own a gun, though.

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I think it would be a waste of time to register guns, there are too many.

It didn't seem to pan out so well in Canada with C-68.....


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27 Jun 2015, 2:01 am

Raptor wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
Gun ownership is declining in America, despite the fact that gun sales have gone up. Less people are responsible for owning more guns from the way I read it. The exception might be if there has been a spike in illegal purchases have been made in recent years distorting the statistics (not sure?)

The sheer volume of sales of guns and ammo after the Obama inauguration and after Sandy Hook would indicate otherwise. It was not just a minority of black helicopter theorists and hoarders.

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Personally I don't care too much if a person has 1 gun or 50 guns. There is a declining cost-benefit the more guns a person owns. You can do about as much damage with 1 guns as with 50.
The emptiness of your knowledge of gun owners and the reason most of us buy guns is truly laughable.

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The scary part is that some people are stockpiling as if they are preparing for a civil war, and this is I think why the idea of confiscating guns is such a scary prospect.
Live in fear, then.

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I have no qualms saying I would like to and I think it's funny that it riles people up. Do I actually have any power though? All I have is my words? Well at least I'm honest.
I'm a riler, not a rilee. I just think it's fun to poke holes in people like yours' lack of knowledge and wisdom on this subject and the way you all constantly dodge the big questions and create your own facts.

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Why is gun ownership among men higher than gun ownership against women? About 35% of men own a gun while 12% of women own a gun? Someone explain this to me.

Let me guess; you think the only reason anyone would own a gun is for protection and that any man that would need to own a gun is weak and cannot fight.
That all men are bulletproof.


Lol, you really don't get it do you? But actually I think you do get it. You seem pretty smart actually.

We are on opposite sides of the fence. That's what it comes down to. I just post my thoughts in these threads and see how people respond.

I was raised with the belief "guns R bad." I'll admit it. I do sometimes when I'm not too moody like to read the other side. I understand it a bit. But we are on different sides of the fence. I don't claim to be an expert. I just like reading things that other people right.

Dox's long post I found interesting and a little revealing.

Some things never change. The things is I don't even vote. I just find these conversations interesting and nothing moe. Seriously, I live a pretty cushy life. I'm not worried about gun violence myself but I realize it is a possibility and if I had a choice I'd prefer a society more invested in arts music, science, exploration, etc. than weapons. I'm just talking. I don't want to learn about guns because it's not my interest.

Switzerland now does have a very interest thing going. I will say that much. But I don't think America can realistically adopt Switzerland's strategy.



Dox47
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27 Jun 2015, 2:12 am

Fugu wrote:
appealing to authority is a fallacy fyi.


Stick to what you know, which obviously includes neither guns nor arguing, to say nothing of critical thought. Establishing my experience and credentials so that I may point out that your argument is false is in no way fallacious, like if I were a mechanic and came across someone claiming their Ford Fiesta puts out 500hp, I could draw upon my experience to lend credence to my to my explanations of why it actually doesn't. Now in this case, I do happen to have a degree from one of the only gunsmith schools in the US and years of firearms experience to back up my contentions regarding firearms design; what qualifications do you have?

Fugu wrote:
Guns aren't designed to kill! oh wait, they are..."


Remember what I was saying in another thread about unsupported statements? Again, I design and build guns, and I'm telling you that's complete crap, so what special qualifications or knowledge to you have to contradict my claim? Really, it's you who's making the "designed to kill" claim, and so should have to prove that guns are designed to kill, but I won't get my expectations up.

Fugu wrote:
bows are harder to operate than your average gun, and it's gonna be really difficult to throw a knife or other edged weapon 100ft and hit your target, much less kill anything.


What relevance does ease of use have to argument you're pursuing about what an object is designed for? Is this a red herring, or do you really not know better?

Fugu wrote:
ok, what functions do guns have that do not involve propelling metal towards a target?


Ahh, now you're trying to straw-man me, I never said guns are not weapons, in fact I mentioned it explicitly several times, the problem you're having is that you don't seem to understand that designed to launch projectiles is not the same thing as designed to kill, not even close.

Fugu wrote:
it's 2015, hope this helps.


I like how you completely avoid engaging with anything I just said in order to attempt a cheap shot, clearly the mark of a sharp mind thirsty for knowledge.

Fugu wrote:
that's a very shiny strawman you have there, did it take long to build it? (I didn't say anything about banning guns)


Did you notice the part where it wasn't addressed to you specifically? Maybe work on that reading comprehension a bit before getting into the advanced stuff like straw men, seeing as how you're not too good at identifying or deploying them, as can be seen up-post.

Fugu wrote:
please spare me your obvious strawmen, I never mentioned either of those.

Again, show me where at any point in the original post you were specifically addressed, rather than the thread as a whole. I'll wait.


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Fugu
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28 Jun 2015, 5:34 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Fugu wrote:
appealing to authority is a fallacy fyi.


Stick to what you know, which obviously includes neither guns nor arguing, to say nothing of critical thought. Establishing my experience and credentials so that I may point out that your argument is false is in no way fallacious, like if I were a mechanic and came across someone claiming their Ford Fiesta puts out 500hp, I could draw upon my experience to lend credence to my to my explanations of why it actually doesn't. Now in this case, I do happen to have a degree from one of the only gunsmith schools in the US and years of firearms experience to back up my contentions regarding firearms design; what qualifications do you have?

Fugu wrote:
Guns aren't designed to kill! oh wait, they are..."


Remember what I was saying in another thread about unsupported statements? Again, I design and build guns, and I'm telling you that's complete crap, so what special qualifications or knowledge to you have to contradict my claim? Really, it's you who's making the "designed to kill" claim, and so should have to prove that guns are designed to kill, but I won't get my expectations up.
I was merely condensing what you had said to highlight the contradictory nature of what you were saying. you literally said "guns aren't designed to kill" then went on to say "most guns can be used as weapons" but you've still neglected to list what other functions a gun has that don't involve shooting something with lethal intent which is the reason a gun exists imo.
Quote:

Fugu wrote:
bows are harder to operate than your average gun, and it's gonna be really difficult to throw a knife or other edged weapon 100ft and hit your target, much less kill anything.


What relevance does ease of use have to argument you're pursuing about what an object is designed for? Is this a red herring, or do you really not know better?
it was you who mentioned bows and knives first, and you're inferring I'm being irrelevant for replying? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote:
Fugu wrote:
ok, what functions do guns have that do not involve propelling metal towards a target?


Ahh, now you're trying to straw-man me, I never said guns are not weapons, in fact I mentioned it explicitly several times, the problem you're having is that you don't seem to understand that designed to launch projectiles is not the same thing as designed to kill, not even close.
ok then, list things that you can do with a gun that don't involve shooting something that isn't at a target range.
Quote:
Fugu wrote:
it's 2015, hope this helps.


I like how you completely avoid engaging with anything I just said in order to attempt a cheap shot, clearly the mark of a sharp mind thirsty for knowledge.

Fugu wrote:
that's a very shiny strawman you have there, did it take long to build it? (I didn't say anything about banning guns)


Did you notice the part where it wasn't addressed to you specifically? Maybe work on that reading comprehension a bit before getting into the advanced stuff like straw men, seeing as how you're not too good at identifying or deploying them, as can be seen up-post.
gee, perhaps that could have been reasonably inferred from the way you mentioned two terms I had just used in a previous post.
Quote:

Fugu wrote:
please spare me your obvious strawmen, I never mentioned either of those.

Again, show me where at any point in the original post you were specifically addressed, rather than the thread as a whole. I'll wait.
now you're just being disingenuous, you mentioned several things I touched on in my posts which were immediately above yours, but who cares about context?



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28 Jun 2015, 6:28 pm

Fugu wrote:
...list things that you can do with a gun that don't involve shooting something that isn't at a target range....

I purchased the firearms I own in large part because they will likely appreciate in value. I keep them in mint condition despite being 13 years of age and 1 year of age respectively. For me, they are protection against violence and an economy falling faster than a drone that had just been microwaved by a Russian military team. Hehe.


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28 Jun 2015, 7:14 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
...list things that you can do with a gun that don't involve shooting something that isn't at a target range....

I purchased the firearms I own in large part because they will likely appreciate in value. I keep them in mint condition despite being 13 years of age and 1 year of age respectively. For me, they are protection against violence and an economy falling faster than a drone that had just been microwaved by a Russian military team. Hehe.


Only two!?!?!?!?


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28 Jun 2015, 7:16 pm

Raptor wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
...list things that you can do with a gun that don't involve shooting something that isn't at a target range....

I purchased the firearms I own in large part because they will likely appreciate in value. I keep them in mint condition despite being 13 years of age and 1 year of age respectively. For me, they are protection against violence and an economy falling faster than a drone that had just been microwaved by a Russian military team. Hehe.

Only two!?!?!?!?

They are both SIG Sauers. Can a person own too many Corvettes? Haha. :lol:


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28 Jun 2015, 8:19 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
...list things that you can do with a gun that don't involve shooting something that isn't at a target range....

I purchased the firearms I own in large part because they will likely appreciate in value. I keep them in mint condition despite being 13 years of age and 1 year of age respectively. For me, they are protection against violence and an economy falling faster than a drone that had just been microwaved by a Russian military team. Hehe.

Only two!?!?!?!?

They are both SIG Sauers. Can a person own too many Corvettes? Haha. :lol:



I have a SIG, too; A P-228 and several others.

One can never own too many firearms and the more bleating I hear from the antis the more I hunger for..........more guns.


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28 Jun 2015, 8:52 pm

Raptor wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
...list things that you can do with a gun that don't involve shooting something that isn't at a target range....

I purchased the firearms I own in large part because they will likely appreciate in value. I keep them in mint condition despite being 13 years of age and 1 year of age respectively. For me, they are protection against violence and an economy falling faster than a drone that had just been microwaved by a Russian military team. Hehe.

Only two!?!?!?!?

They are both SIG Sauers. Can a person own too many Corvettes? Haha. :lol:



I have a SIG, too; A P-228 and several others.

One can never own too many firearms and the more bleating I hear from the antis the more I hunger for..........more guns.
it must be really depressing to be so insecure that you need multiple weapons. my condolences Raptor.



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28 Jun 2015, 9:37 pm

Couldn't help but be reminded of these two:

Image



Raptor
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28 Jun 2015, 10:17 pm

Fugu wrote:
Raptor wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
...list things that you can do with a gun that don't involve shooting something that isn't at a target range....

I purchased the firearms I own in large part because they will likely appreciate in value. I keep them in mint condition despite being 13 years of age and 1 year of age respectively. For me, they are protection against violence and an economy falling faster than a drone that had just been microwaved by a Russian military team. Hehe.

Only two!?!?!?!?

They are both SIG Sauers. Can a person own too many Corvettes? Haha. :lol:



I have a SIG, too; A P-228 and several others.

One can never own too many firearms and the more bleating I hear from the antis the more I hunger for..........more guns.
it must be really depressing to be so insecure that you need multiple weapons. my condolences Raptor.


VERY depressing, and this is just my living room.....
Image


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29 Jun 2015, 2:00 am

Fugu wrote:
I was merely condensing what you had said to highlight the contradictory nature of what you were saying. you literally said "guns aren't designed to kill" then went on to say "most guns can be used as weapons" but you've still neglected to list what other functions a gun has that don't involve shooting something with lethal intent which is the reason a gun exists imo.


"Lethal intent"? I don't know whether to put this one down to poor reading comprehension or poor thinking, or both, since target shooting, a major use of firearms, requires no such intent, nor does self defense, where the aim is only to prevent harm to oneself or another. I don't know how else to explain it at this point, if you're not getting it, it's either willful or hopeless.

Fugu wrote:
it was you who mentioned bows and knives first, and you're inferring I'm being irrelevant for replying? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Ahh, another point for poor reading comprehension, as I brought up bows and knives as other items just as "designed to kill" as guns, and you responded by attacking their ease of use, which was not under discussion. The emotes only complete the self inflicted beclowning.

Fugu wrote:
]ok then, list things that you can do with a gun that don't involve shooting something that isn't at a target range.


When did I say guns were designed for anything other than shooting? It's you who can't seem to distinguish "designed to shoot" from "designed to kill".

Fugu wrote:
gee, perhaps that could have been reasonably inferred from the way you mentioned two terms I had just used in a previous post.


And the way that I addressed a number of terms and arguments people other than you had used should have tipped you off that I was addressing the thread at large, along with the fact that I didn't actually quote you or address you by name.

Fugu wrote:
now you're just being disingenuous, you mentioned several things I touched on in my posts which were immediately above yours, but who cares about context?


See above.


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